Royal Albert Hall
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RAH - still appropriate?
I attended the opening of 'Southern Stand' in Hyde Park corner - well done to the Kiwis and everybody else who participated. However, I also watched the RBL business in the RAH on the television I can't help but think that the format is a little anachronistic and had a wiff of 'National Service' crossed with a 'Seniors Mess' about it. Apart from funerals (and there are, regrettably, too many of these) RAF personnel don't wear Service Dress and don't 'do' drill. And from what I see being based on a Garrison now, nor do the army. Not a particularly accurate and contemporary representation of the forces. And do service nursing staff still wear their 'Carry On' headdress in NHS hospitals of today?
I am sure I will be pilloried about these views, but it seemed that the vast majority attending the show were of retirment age and the content would have little of interest to a younger audience, who perhaps are the ones who need to gain the appreciation of past sacrifices and what HM forces are doing now. Simply jazzing up 'Abide with me' - the sort of effort I recall 'with it' vicars trying to do in the 1970s - is not enough. Relevance and poignancy - portrayed by the gallant GC ATO - is what the forces is really about.
Thoughts?
CF
I am sure I will be pilloried about these views, but it seemed that the vast majority attending the show were of retirment age and the content would have little of interest to a younger audience, who perhaps are the ones who need to gain the appreciation of past sacrifices and what HM forces are doing now. Simply jazzing up 'Abide with me' - the sort of effort I recall 'with it' vicars trying to do in the 1970s - is not enough. Relevance and poignancy - portrayed by the gallant GC ATO - is what the forces is really about.
Thoughts?
CF
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
CF,
You have a point. The one about nurses ocurred to me too.
For drill OTOH you are only partly correct.
In initial training all servicemen are trained to march. Marching is the post efficient way of moving a bunch of people from a to b on foot albeit it takes time to form them up. Look at the old boys at the Cenotaph, they all remembered how to march.
Drill is part of Drill and Ceremonial. It is the Ceremonial for which we need drill. The Guards, the funeral cortage etc are all necessary manifestations. The bands are rightly marching bands and the RAF Colour Sqn is part of our Ceremonial.
So drill and ceremonial are still practised and therefore not in a way anachronistic. Whether the drill and ceremonial in the RAH format should be changes is a different argument. The old Royal Tournament display was the modern display with a mix of modern arms and pageantry. Now I wonder why we stopped that?
So, what format would you suggest for the RAH?
You have a point. The one about nurses ocurred to me too.
For drill OTOH you are only partly correct.
In initial training all servicemen are trained to march. Marching is the post efficient way of moving a bunch of people from a to b on foot albeit it takes time to form them up. Look at the old boys at the Cenotaph, they all remembered how to march.
Drill is part of Drill and Ceremonial. It is the Ceremonial for which we need drill. The Guards, the funeral cortage etc are all necessary manifestations. The bands are rightly marching bands and the RAF Colour Sqn is part of our Ceremonial.
So drill and ceremonial are still practised and therefore not in a way anachronistic. Whether the drill and ceremonial in the RAH format should be changes is a different argument. The old Royal Tournament display was the modern display with a mix of modern arms and pageantry. Now I wonder why we stopped that?
So, what format would you suggest for the RAH?
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Drill down a bit
PP
I am aware that Drill and Ceremonial is still a significant component of initial officer and recruit training, however unless you are in QCS or spend spare time assisting an Air Cadet unit, drill is not a significant part of life in the RAF. Perhaps a stand showing harrased officers in CHQ trying to balance the books, produce two page 'estimates' and trying to get email connectivity. Alternatively, groups of tradespeople f'ing and blinding in 45 degrees, with sand everywhere trying to keep a platform serviceable, whilst the DLO apparatchiks talk of JIT philosophy on an away-day at a health spa. Or the family of a young squaddy (deployed) having to wait an average of a month to get a failed HW boiler replaced in their SFA whilst MODern Housing Solutions attempt to establish a supply chain, some 12 months into the contract.
No, in second thoughts, the public wouldn't believe that, either!
I am aware that Drill and Ceremonial is still a significant component of initial officer and recruit training, however unless you are in QCS or spend spare time assisting an Air Cadet unit, drill is not a significant part of life in the RAF. Perhaps a stand showing harrased officers in CHQ trying to balance the books, produce two page 'estimates' and trying to get email connectivity. Alternatively, groups of tradespeople f'ing and blinding in 45 degrees, with sand everywhere trying to keep a platform serviceable, whilst the DLO apparatchiks talk of JIT philosophy on an away-day at a health spa. Or the family of a young squaddy (deployed) having to wait an average of a month to get a failed HW boiler replaced in their SFA whilst MODern Housing Solutions attempt to establish a supply chain, some 12 months into the contract.
No, in second thoughts, the public wouldn't believe that, either!
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
CF,
In other words you want the Royal Tournament.
How would you organise the RAH?
In other words you want the Royal Tournament.
How would you organise the RAH?
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I too would be glad to learn of the relevance of Chris de Burgh to the Armed Forces in general and the RBL in particular ??
Muster was woefully small compared to previous years, (understandably,) and displays seemed shorter/less numerous too. Thought Huw Edwards did a good job though.
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BBC News Article
Commonwealth War Graves Site
Name: DE BURGH, THOMAS
Initials: T
Nationality: Indian
Rank: Lieutenant
Regiment/Service: 31st Duke of Connaught's Own Lancers
Secondary Regiment: 5th (Royal Irish) Lancers
Secondary Unit Text: attd.
Age: 26
Date of Death: 17/09/1914
Additional information: Son of Lt. Col. Thomas John de Burgh and Emily de Burgh, of Oldtown, Naas, Co. Kildare.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 3.
Memorial: NEUVE-CHAPELLE MEMORIAL
Guess that is wrong when they list his nationality as "Indian".
HOWEVER......
This was discussed on the Great War Forum
The CWGC has the follwoing as the first officer casualty
Name: PERRY, EVELYN WALTER COPLAND
Initials: E W C
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Second Lieutenant
Regiment/Service: Royal Flying Corps
Age: 23
Date of Death: 16/08/1914
Additional information: Son of Walter Copland Perry, M.A., Ph.D., Barrister-at-Law, and Evelyn F. Perry (nee Stopford), of 29, Thurloe Square, South Kensington, London. The first British Officer killed on active service in France during the Great War.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: 7.
Cemetery: ST. ACHEUL FRENCH NATIONAL CEMETERY, AMIENS
But there are a couple of others who might were killed before.
WWI truce letter sold for Ł14,000
Singer Chris de Burgh has paid Ł14,400 for a letter written by an unknown soldier describing the Christmas Day truce in 1914.
The document is one of the few first accounts of the famous event when German and British troops briefly halted hostilities at Ypres, Belgium.
Signed simply 'Boy' the hand-written 10 page letter was penned by a young soldier whose fate remains unknown.
De Burgh made a telephone bid for the object when it came up for sale.
London auction house Bonhams had expected the item to fetch around Ł400.
Lady in Red singer De Burgh, 58, said he was fascinated by the truce.
"I am totally passionate about the subject. I read every line of the letter and found it an extremely moving and personal account of World War One," he said.
"The letter is a great historical document charting the surreal events of the 25 December 1914."
De Burgh added that his great uncle, Thomas de Burgh, was thought to be the first officer killed in the war, and his body was never found.
His grandfather also served in the trenches.
In the letter, dated 25 December, 1914 and addressed to "My dear Mater", the soldier wrote: "The Germans commenced by placing lights all along the edge of their trenches and coming over to us - wishing us a Happy Christmas etc.
"They also gave us a few songs etc. so we had quite a social party."
He went on: "They say they won't fire tomorrow if we don't so I suppose we shall get a bit of a holiday - perhaps.
"After exchanging autographs and them wishing us a Happy New Year we departed and came back and had our dinner.
"We can hardly believe that we've been firing at them for the last week or two - it all seems so strange."
Singer Chris de Burgh has paid Ł14,400 for a letter written by an unknown soldier describing the Christmas Day truce in 1914.
The document is one of the few first accounts of the famous event when German and British troops briefly halted hostilities at Ypres, Belgium.
Signed simply 'Boy' the hand-written 10 page letter was penned by a young soldier whose fate remains unknown.
De Burgh made a telephone bid for the object when it came up for sale.
London auction house Bonhams had expected the item to fetch around Ł400.
Lady in Red singer De Burgh, 58, said he was fascinated by the truce.
"I am totally passionate about the subject. I read every line of the letter and found it an extremely moving and personal account of World War One," he said.
"The letter is a great historical document charting the surreal events of the 25 December 1914."
De Burgh added that his great uncle, Thomas de Burgh, was thought to be the first officer killed in the war, and his body was never found.
His grandfather also served in the trenches.
In the letter, dated 25 December, 1914 and addressed to "My dear Mater", the soldier wrote: "The Germans commenced by placing lights all along the edge of their trenches and coming over to us - wishing us a Happy Christmas etc.
"They also gave us a few songs etc. so we had quite a social party."
He went on: "They say they won't fire tomorrow if we don't so I suppose we shall get a bit of a holiday - perhaps.
"After exchanging autographs and them wishing us a Happy New Year we departed and came back and had our dinner.
"We can hardly believe that we've been firing at them for the last week or two - it all seems so strange."
Name: DE BURGH, THOMAS
Initials: T
Nationality: Indian
Rank: Lieutenant
Regiment/Service: 31st Duke of Connaught's Own Lancers
Secondary Regiment: 5th (Royal Irish) Lancers
Secondary Unit Text: attd.
Age: 26
Date of Death: 17/09/1914
Additional information: Son of Lt. Col. Thomas John de Burgh and Emily de Burgh, of Oldtown, Naas, Co. Kildare.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: Panel 3.
Memorial: NEUVE-CHAPELLE MEMORIAL
Guess that is wrong when they list his nationality as "Indian".
HOWEVER......
This was discussed on the Great War Forum
The CWGC has the follwoing as the first officer casualty
Name: PERRY, EVELYN WALTER COPLAND
Initials: E W C
Nationality: United Kingdom
Rank: Second Lieutenant
Regiment/Service: Royal Flying Corps
Age: 23
Date of Death: 16/08/1914
Additional information: Son of Walter Copland Perry, M.A., Ph.D., Barrister-at-Law, and Evelyn F. Perry (nee Stopford), of 29, Thurloe Square, South Kensington, London. The first British Officer killed on active service in France during the Great War.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: 7.
Cemetery: ST. ACHEUL FRENCH NATIONAL CEMETERY, AMIENS
But there are a couple of others who might were killed before.
Second Lieutenant R R Skene of Number 3 Squadron has a claim to be the first officer to lose his life in the war when he took off from Netheravon Airfield to fly to France on August 12, dying when his Blériot hit trees. His passenger, Keith Barlow, also died. Four days later, the same squadron's Second Lieutenant E W C Perry became the first British officer to die on active service in France.
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Thank you. As I suspected, no relevance.
Most of us lost an ancestor in the Great War.
Having Ł14,000 to burn on a letter a few days before November 11th surely does not entitle him to abuse one of our best loved and poignant hymns.
And what possessed the Director of Music to permit the banshee wailing of an electric guitar to intrude upon a few moments of collective reflection ?
MM
Most of us lost an ancestor in the Great War.
Having Ł14,000 to burn on a letter a few days before November 11th surely does not entitle him to abuse one of our best loved and poignant hymns.
And what possessed the Director of Music to permit the banshee wailing of an electric guitar to intrude upon a few moments of collective reflection ?
MM
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Wish I had seen it now, just so I could defend what is the greatest military band service in the world...bar none. Smart as a Guard....twice as hard, and thats just the bandies.
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Just returned from the RAH, I feel I must declare that all the misconceptions that I had about the QCS have all been proved entirely wrong. Having spent nearly a week witnessing at first hand how these guys do business, I am left with only the feeling of total respect. In nearly 30 yrs service, I have never had the pleasure of meeting such proud, utterly professional group of individuals. From the WO down to the LAC, they are all driven by the same aim, if only things could be reflected else where through out the service. The QCS depart this week for their stint in southern Iraq, proving that they are not just ‘square borne’, I wish them a safe 4 month tour and look forward to meeting them again.
Last edited by Spit the Dog; 14th Nov 2006 at 13:45. Reason: spelling
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Reorganised Tribute
Pontius,
Regretfully I am not an events organiser so I am cautious to suggest a new format for the event. However, I suspect that you agree that the current format is a little tired and , if you excuse the NuLab term, it lacks relevance to today's target population. Perhaps the Royal Tournament, axed for apparent lack of relevances, is, indeed, relevant. Somehow, I think that yoof of today, in need of reminding of the role of HM Forces (not taught in our craven national curriculum) would find the flash, bang, gee wizz (and some drill and ceremonial) of a Royal Touranment a little more attractive than some aged Blist singer from the 1980s singing to people old enough to be their great grandparents.
Regretfully I am not an events organiser so I am cautious to suggest a new format for the event. However, I suspect that you agree that the current format is a little tired and , if you excuse the NuLab term, it lacks relevance to today's target population. Perhaps the Royal Tournament, axed for apparent lack of relevances, is, indeed, relevant. Somehow, I think that yoof of today, in need of reminding of the role of HM Forces (not taught in our craven national curriculum) would find the flash, bang, gee wizz (and some drill and ceremonial) of a Royal Touranment a little more attractive than some aged Blist singer from the 1980s singing to people old enough to be their great grandparents.
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With respect to Indian nationality, this relates to the various nationality acts at the time. My grandfather was born in Eire but all his children were born in India. The India Office therefore classified my mother as Indian birth.
IIRC it was after the Nationality act of 1949 that entitled her to claim a British passport.
IIRC it was after the Nationality act of 1949 that entitled her to claim a British passport.
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Pontius,
Re the full “Oh Matron” military nurses uniform. I went to a NHS hospital in Portsmouth during the summer to visit a sick relative and I’m delighted to report that the RN nurses working there still wore the full kit
Re the full “Oh Matron” military nurses uniform. I went to a NHS hospital in Portsmouth during the summer to visit a sick relative and I’m delighted to report that the RN nurses working there still wore the full kit
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
I must be going blind. I can't find a reference to matron although I vaguely recall wondering about the nurses uniform. Old age eh!
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Sam,
I think it’s important from a morale point of view to continue the military myth that female members of the RN (no WRNS any more just like no WRAFs) are required to wear “full kit” by QRs
I think it’s important from a morale point of view to continue the military myth that female members of the RN (no WRNS any more just like no WRAFs) are required to wear “full kit” by QRs
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On another forum I had the following reply to the Indian / Irish comment about CdB
The nationality refers to the unit and not the man. His regiment is an Indian unit and so 'Indian' is correct.
CWGC would have no knowledge of casualties' personal nationality and could not record it. Each record has to be allocated to one of the member nations of CWGC so that financial contributions can be calculated. This is done by allocating each unit a 'nationality' according to origins of the unit.
CWGC would have no knowledge of casualties' personal nationality and could not record it. Each record has to be allocated to one of the member nations of CWGC so that financial contributions can be calculated. This is done by allocating each unit a 'nationality' according to origins of the unit.
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The bottom line guys and gals is to keep up the support and donations to the Royal British Legion (RBL). They are the mainstay in grants and support to ex-servicemen and dependents who have needs in later life. Some of you reading will be applicants in later life. Be Proud.
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RAH
Never mind the Nurse's head dress style, I couldn't believe my eyes when one of the Nursing Officers ( QARANC ) on RH side descending onto the floor from the stairs of the RAH, was descending chewing a large sweet of a rather chewy variety whislt marching on !!. I re-checked the recording and my wifde checked it also and agreed - yes she was mid flight on an Army approved gobstopper !!! What have we descended to?
The commentary I found lacked the detail of earlier years and was not synchronised with the arrivals, but yes, a worthwhile event bar the Guitar accompaniment to "Abide with me" - AWFUL !
The commentary I found lacked the detail of earlier years and was not synchronised with the arrivals, but yes, a worthwhile event bar the Guitar accompaniment to "Abide with me" - AWFUL !