RAF Meltdown - Has it begun?
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From the Inquisitor:
"Ah, yes - the old standard E-Goat rant of "Officers Useless, SNCOs Great".- No, that is not what he is saying, the gist of the post is that 2 year tours for JOs although cheap are not effective and do little to allow the JO to develop mastery of his area of responsibility- ie not VFM
"If you're gonna throw stones, fellas, at least aim them in the right direction. Whilst it is blatantly obvious that the Officer Corp of the RAF is severely bloated, bear in mind that these figures are grossly distorted by the fact that all front-end aircrew are comissioned." I think Mr Blake clearly acknowledges the aircrew element, he questions the need for so many in the higher echelons, as it seems TheInquisitor does. Can anyone justify the need for so many Group Captains, Wing Commanders etc? not to mention the ongoing debate about front end aircrew needing to be commissioned.
A grown up debate rather than stone throwing may be quite interesting
"Ah, yes - the old standard E-Goat rant of "Officers Useless, SNCOs Great".- No, that is not what he is saying, the gist of the post is that 2 year tours for JOs although cheap are not effective and do little to allow the JO to develop mastery of his area of responsibility- ie not VFM
"If you're gonna throw stones, fellas, at least aim them in the right direction. Whilst it is blatantly obvious that the Officer Corp of the RAF is severely bloated, bear in mind that these figures are grossly distorted by the fact that all front-end aircrew are comissioned." I think Mr Blake clearly acknowledges the aircrew element, he questions the need for so many in the higher echelons, as it seems TheInquisitor does. Can anyone justify the need for so many Group Captains, Wing Commanders etc? not to mention the ongoing debate about front end aircrew needing to be commissioned.
A grown up debate rather than stone throwing may be quite interesting
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All valid points, but the crux of the letter was "why are we so top heavy" post lean, E to E, etc etc.. Is there really a requirement for this level of well paid management with the closure and restructuring of so many MOBs? The fwd and depth policy has further exasperated this by the addition of extra management posts, due the split in half of traditional second line spt. Why do we think to deplete the coalface first, before considering other options? Do we really need 400plus Gp Cptns for what is essentilally 2 Grps? IMHO the whole shebang needs radically pruning.
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By our own definitions we are hoisted.........
Two points .....
Firstly, having attended a course at the Linconshire Crab training base, by it's own definitions we are a third world air force (when hand was raised and comment was made there was much spluttering and mentioning of buffoon, brimstone, stormshadow etc.....).
While we may have some shiny kit - and some of it is very shiny and does indeed do what it says on the tin - the money wasted on poorly written procurement contracts or the proportion of the defence vote that has been poured into our 'defence industry' in order to keep our BAe and RR friends in business has detracted from our ability to take on the world, or pay ourselves a decent salary.
While the powers that be harp on about effects based operations, they seem to have great difficulty understanding that it is difficult to have any kind of effect when the troops (RN, Army or RAF) are utterly exhausted, angry, underpaid relative to the outside world and are carrying such a complete sense of betrayal by those who can say 'Duty of care' but have forgotten what it actually means.
Which takes me to my second point about the level of Officers vs ORs. Believe it or not, there are many in the JO Cadre who look up and see how many chiefs there are and wonder where all the Indians went. A simple stroll through Wyton at 8 in the morning is a perfect example of the critical mass of senior officers in our Service - and Strike even more so. I have seen a letter along similar lines to that in this thread from WO asking why officer postings were so short - and this was published in the RAF News - to which the reply was that in order to 'round the careers' of officers it was neccessary to keep them moving on a regular basis to cover all aspects of their profession, management skills and wider experience of the RAF.
Not wishing to play Devil's Advocate, but there are some elements of truth here - that because of the myriad posts that a JO of any particular branch, perhaps with the exception of aircrew, has to master in order to be promoted the requirement to move around more often is reinforced. In order to increase the length of postings would require a change in the promotion system to take into account 4 year postings as suggested.
IMHO the greatest problem is not at the JO level but at the very top of the heirarchy, where those that make the ultimate decisions about the direction of the Service are in post for perhaps 18 months if they are lucky. Three years ago the current CAS was a 2* for heavens's sake! That is where the problems are seen to lie - and there are many posts to that effect on this and other forums - that those who make the earth shattering decisions are never around to realise the consequences and those who come after them either fight the fires or absolve themselves of the blame by pointing at their predeccessor.
Until there is accountability for the damage done in the past, there will be no sanity applied to the future. Our political masters will not look to the health or defence of the nation - they will look to win the next election. Until we are invaded, bombed, tortured or killed there will be no urgency to provide the resources to maintain our defence capability.
One can only hope that, given our military is beginning to resemble the shadow of its former self reminscent of the Inter War years, if our own shores were once again threatened we would have the capability of tunring around and fighting as we did 70 years ago.
Meltdown? Yes. Does anyone but us care? Answers on a postcard......
Firstly, having attended a course at the Linconshire Crab training base, by it's own definitions we are a third world air force (when hand was raised and comment was made there was much spluttering and mentioning of buffoon, brimstone, stormshadow etc.....).
While we may have some shiny kit - and some of it is very shiny and does indeed do what it says on the tin - the money wasted on poorly written procurement contracts or the proportion of the defence vote that has been poured into our 'defence industry' in order to keep our BAe and RR friends in business has detracted from our ability to take on the world, or pay ourselves a decent salary.
While the powers that be harp on about effects based operations, they seem to have great difficulty understanding that it is difficult to have any kind of effect when the troops (RN, Army or RAF) are utterly exhausted, angry, underpaid relative to the outside world and are carrying such a complete sense of betrayal by those who can say 'Duty of care' but have forgotten what it actually means.
Which takes me to my second point about the level of Officers vs ORs. Believe it or not, there are many in the JO Cadre who look up and see how many chiefs there are and wonder where all the Indians went. A simple stroll through Wyton at 8 in the morning is a perfect example of the critical mass of senior officers in our Service - and Strike even more so. I have seen a letter along similar lines to that in this thread from WO asking why officer postings were so short - and this was published in the RAF News - to which the reply was that in order to 'round the careers' of officers it was neccessary to keep them moving on a regular basis to cover all aspects of their profession, management skills and wider experience of the RAF.
Not wishing to play Devil's Advocate, but there are some elements of truth here - that because of the myriad posts that a JO of any particular branch, perhaps with the exception of aircrew, has to master in order to be promoted the requirement to move around more often is reinforced. In order to increase the length of postings would require a change in the promotion system to take into account 4 year postings as suggested.
IMHO the greatest problem is not at the JO level but at the very top of the heirarchy, where those that make the ultimate decisions about the direction of the Service are in post for perhaps 18 months if they are lucky. Three years ago the current CAS was a 2* for heavens's sake! That is where the problems are seen to lie - and there are many posts to that effect on this and other forums - that those who make the earth shattering decisions are never around to realise the consequences and those who come after them either fight the fires or absolve themselves of the blame by pointing at their predeccessor.
Until there is accountability for the damage done in the past, there will be no sanity applied to the future. Our political masters will not look to the health or defence of the nation - they will look to win the next election. Until we are invaded, bombed, tortured or killed there will be no urgency to provide the resources to maintain our defence capability.
One can only hope that, given our military is beginning to resemble the shadow of its former self reminscent of the Inter War years, if our own shores were once again threatened we would have the capability of tunring around and fighting as we did 70 years ago.
Meltdown? Yes. Does anyone but us care? Answers on a postcard......
Dear AC2 Blake, thank you so much for writing your very interesting letter to RAF News. We are so sorry for the delay in replying to you, as the person who is typing this, being the only one able to do so, was on leave and had to catch up with typing other replies from our 2 Gp Capts, 6 Wng Cdrs and 18 Sqn Ldrs before typing this one.
Looking back through early issues of RAF News, and its predecessor Rollicking Flying Capers, one can see a general trend towards the situation today as so cleverly identified by you. At the start of Military Aviation tethered gas balloons were operated by one officer, two NCOs and some two dozen ORs. Later, aeroplanes appeared and were initially used for spotting duties, with a crew of one officer observer and his driver (or 'pilot' as they liked to be called). Technology moved on and higher performance machines vied for command of the air. Having only one seat these 'fighters' obviously had to be flown by an officer. With so many more junior officers a career path for those gaining promotion was obviously needed. In a masterstroke of lateral thinking the new ranks devised for the Air Service were cascaded downwards, so 'Flights' were no longer commanded by Flt Lts, but by Sqn Ldrs. Their Squadrons were now lead by Wg Cdrs, whose Wings were commanded by Grp Capts etc etc. Thus a pyramid was formed which promised to function as well as other schemes based on that particular geometry. Unfortunately, there was a temporary change to this situation in the 40s when, due to a certain amount of unpleasantness, there was a massive expansion to the RAF which could only be met by training NCO pilots. This obviously unsatisfactory effect was corrected shortly after that unpleasantness and the previous policy pursued with ever more vigour. The problem emerged that the base of the pyramid was now insufficient to sustain the increased number of posts above it, so that not only pilots and navigators were now commissioned, but new categories as well, such as AEO. This worked for a time but a more self sustaining long term solution was needed. With the so called 'Peace Dividend' the opportunity was there. Cuts were the order of the day. But these cuts were always announced and reported as reductions in numbers, not salaries. So by reducing the numbers of non commissioned personnel, the pyramid assumed an ever larger proportion of the RAF. The RAF News can now exclusively reveal that the logical culmination of this trend, stretching back as we have seen to the very beginnings of Air Power, will be a commissioned only RAF. As in the founding of an Independent Air Force, this country will lead the world again, in an officer only Air Force. As you will already have realised AC2 Blake, with your quick and intuitive grasp of the situation, there will therefore unfortunately not be a place for you in that new arrangement. So tomorrow, when I do the typing for JPA, I will be sending you your P45. Good luck to you in the future, one that I will be sharing, as I've just been told that I am redundant as well!
Looking back through early issues of RAF News, and its predecessor Rollicking Flying Capers, one can see a general trend towards the situation today as so cleverly identified by you. At the start of Military Aviation tethered gas balloons were operated by one officer, two NCOs and some two dozen ORs. Later, aeroplanes appeared and were initially used for spotting duties, with a crew of one officer observer and his driver (or 'pilot' as they liked to be called). Technology moved on and higher performance machines vied for command of the air. Having only one seat these 'fighters' obviously had to be flown by an officer. With so many more junior officers a career path for those gaining promotion was obviously needed. In a masterstroke of lateral thinking the new ranks devised for the Air Service were cascaded downwards, so 'Flights' were no longer commanded by Flt Lts, but by Sqn Ldrs. Their Squadrons were now lead by Wg Cdrs, whose Wings were commanded by Grp Capts etc etc. Thus a pyramid was formed which promised to function as well as other schemes based on that particular geometry. Unfortunately, there was a temporary change to this situation in the 40s when, due to a certain amount of unpleasantness, there was a massive expansion to the RAF which could only be met by training NCO pilots. This obviously unsatisfactory effect was corrected shortly after that unpleasantness and the previous policy pursued with ever more vigour. The problem emerged that the base of the pyramid was now insufficient to sustain the increased number of posts above it, so that not only pilots and navigators were now commissioned, but new categories as well, such as AEO. This worked for a time but a more self sustaining long term solution was needed. With the so called 'Peace Dividend' the opportunity was there. Cuts were the order of the day. But these cuts were always announced and reported as reductions in numbers, not salaries. So by reducing the numbers of non commissioned personnel, the pyramid assumed an ever larger proportion of the RAF. The RAF News can now exclusively reveal that the logical culmination of this trend, stretching back as we have seen to the very beginnings of Air Power, will be a commissioned only RAF. As in the founding of an Independent Air Force, this country will lead the world again, in an officer only Air Force. As you will already have realised AC2 Blake, with your quick and intuitive grasp of the situation, there will therefore unfortunately not be a place for you in that new arrangement. So tomorrow, when I do the typing for JPA, I will be sending you your P45. Good luck to you in the future, one that I will be sharing, as I've just been told that I am redundant as well!
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
The RAF News can now exclusively reveal that the logical culmination of this trend, stretching back as we have seen to the very beginnings of Air Power, will be a commissioned only RAF.
RNoAF: Approximately 2100 employees, of which 1400 are officers, 60 are enlisted staff, 150 are civilians and 500 are serving their initial service.
I seem to remember this argument in the early 80's (before Pprune even) when we were compared to the efficiencies of the Israeli Air Force - I think they operated, at that time, with just five "Air Ranks".
Don't know how many they have now, but the sizes of our air forces are much closer!
Loved the bit about GC's not doing anything but drinking tea all day - It's a bit like pilots only popping out for a pointless hole-punch in the sky, just to keep the Fuel from going off! Never working early or late...and always home for Tea, medals and Blue Peter.
Don't know how many they have now, but the sizes of our air forces are much closer!
Loved the bit about GC's not doing anything but drinking tea all day - It's a bit like pilots only popping out for a pointless hole-punch in the sky, just to keep the Fuel from going off! Never working early or late...and always home for Tea, medals and Blue Peter.
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Just catching up with the Scandihooligans...
RNoAF: Approximately 2100 employees, of which 1400 are officers, 60 are enlisted staff, 150 are civilians and 500 are serving their initial service.
RNoAF: Approximately 2100 employees, of which 1400 are officers, 60 are enlisted staff, 150 are civilians and 500 are serving their initial service.
In addition, the Norwegians operate a mobilisation force of about 5000 troops. These are similar to our TA in that they train a couple of times a year but have normal jobs in peacetime. They too are all "other ranks". Seems a very odd system to me.
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Current RAF Strength:
Officers (Aircrew) : 4,308
Officers (Other branches) : 6,558
Ground trades (Other ranks) : 40,623
So that makes the ratio roughly 4 OR's per officer if you count all officers, or 6 OR's to 1 officer if you leave aircrew aside.
Officers (Aircrew) : 4,308
Officers (Other branches) : 6,558
Ground trades (Other ranks) : 40,623
So that makes the ratio roughly 4 OR's per officer if you count all officers, or 6 OR's to 1 officer if you leave aircrew aside.
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Dear Hansbwix,
Completely agree with all you say. We have never since the spat down south, faced a credible Air Force that could give us a bloody nose. Instead we have played support role to the USAF, under their considerable umbrella. If we had sufferred more than the expected attrition losses in both Gulf Wars, then maybe we would have maintained more assets. It is a sad fact of life that our perceived success has been our downfall, and we are at the level we are now.
Could we stand up and fight on our own now? Certainly not. IMHO we are weaker in comparitive terms to the period between the wars.
Completely agree with all you say. We have never since the spat down south, faced a credible Air Force that could give us a bloody nose. Instead we have played support role to the USAF, under their considerable umbrella. If we had sufferred more than the expected attrition losses in both Gulf Wars, then maybe we would have maintained more assets. It is a sad fact of life that our perceived success has been our downfall, and we are at the level we are now.
Could we stand up and fight on our own now? Certainly not. IMHO we are weaker in comparitive terms to the period between the wars.
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Here is another interesting stat for all you statos out there....for every 94 other ranks there is a Group Captain or above. I have seen flights that size.
A postcard from Blighty
Until there is accountability for the damage done in the past, there will be no sanity applied to the future. Our political masters will not look to the health or defence of the nation - they will look to win the next election. Until we are invaded, bombed, tortured or killed there will be no urgency to provide the resources to maintain our defence capability.
Meltdown? Yes. Does anyone but us care? Answers on a postcard......
Meltdown? Yes. Does anyone but us care? Answers on a postcard......
What to do? Well, as that most despicable of relics from the past, an ex Cold War warrior, and peeping through the PPrune keyhole, my two penn'eth would be start by restoring the full powers of a subordinate commander, and reinstate a fully integrated Chain of Command. Every basic function of Morale, eg money, mail, meals, seems to be the responsibility of some set of cryptically initialled Quango. Give it all back to the only real commanders the RAF ever had, ie at Station, Wing and Squadron level, so that it can be made to work again. That way you get fully functioning bosses in charge of efficient and happy(!) units. What kit those units have, and what capability they therefore have, is indeed for our Lords and Masters to decide. Repelling invasions and liberating occupied territories may indeed remain beyond us, but what we can do we should continue doing well. That alone means massive reform, which will be costly. Perhaps some of the top heavy Staff should be culled both as reform and as a cost saving.
Last edited by Chugalug2; 23rd Nov 2006 at 13:45.
Some real (depressing) food for thought on this thread.
I think a fitting example of the p!ss poor management of the RAF can be found at High Wycombe. One of the most expensive pieces of Real Estate in the country and the airships are busy shoe horning more and more people into it. The excess rent allowance alone must be close to 1 Million pounds a month. The airships reside in their huge residences, decorated at Public Expense by Mrs Airship, and play Lord and Master over their bloated staffs. Just a stones throw from the Ministry as well so they can nip 'into town' for lunch and drinks. This is the modern air force for you. Huge amounts of waste to keep 'The Few' in comfort and feed their self importance.
Their excuse? The bunker is a National Asset and cannot be closed. Bollox.
If the Prime Minister and the President of the USA can video conference reference the future of Iraq then the airships can move to a more affordable location, 'downsize' like the rest of us, and do the same regarding the latest movement of the one remaining serviceable combat aircraft.
Or maybe they do not want to be too far away from the Notting Hill Carnival and the Gay Pride March....all jolly good PR and spiffing on the old CV don't ya know.
It is a disgrace.
7 days to do and counting.
I think a fitting example of the p!ss poor management of the RAF can be found at High Wycombe. One of the most expensive pieces of Real Estate in the country and the airships are busy shoe horning more and more people into it. The excess rent allowance alone must be close to 1 Million pounds a month. The airships reside in their huge residences, decorated at Public Expense by Mrs Airship, and play Lord and Master over their bloated staffs. Just a stones throw from the Ministry as well so they can nip 'into town' for lunch and drinks. This is the modern air force for you. Huge amounts of waste to keep 'The Few' in comfort and feed their self importance.
Their excuse? The bunker is a National Asset and cannot be closed. Bollox.
If the Prime Minister and the President of the USA can video conference reference the future of Iraq then the airships can move to a more affordable location, 'downsize' like the rest of us, and do the same regarding the latest movement of the one remaining serviceable combat aircraft.
Or maybe they do not want to be too far away from the Notting Hill Carnival and the Gay Pride March....all jolly good PR and spiffing on the old CV don't ya know.
It is a disgrace.
7 days to do and counting.
Just beating the air into submission!
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Dear RAF comrades, I joined the RAF back in April 1970, yes you read it right 1 9 7 0 ! More time in than most if not all of our leaders. I have left, joined the AAC, left rejoined the RAF and worked with the Navy and I now have 2 years to go. In this time I have slowly seen all three services, ethos, resources, funding, manpower and identity erroded. It is not just the RAF that is losing manpower faster than a femeral artery breech. Current recruiting is poor, and lets face it what young man/woman wishes to be sharing an un-airconditioned tent in Bas or Stan with incomming 18 months after signing on the line, and a new bod on the seat does not bring with him/her the experience and training that has just left dissatisfied with his/her lot. To play devils advocate, our Airships and other service heads of sheds are only doing what is required of them by our international statesman and professional politian Mr Bair. Lets face it rock the boat and forget the Knighthood, other awards and perks that come with the title. This Great but, very small country has to stop being the No1 Worlds policeman. Our Great and extremely professional armed forces need respite and space to catch their breath, get some leave and familly time in, and some well overdue respect for a job well done with ever diminishing resources. Let the other nations of NATO and the World take the strain for once and then let this country re-build what is today an overstretched, under paid, under valued and yet still the best, professional armed forces in the World. I am still proud of my service and the other two services, it pains me however, to see how the forces have changed for the worst over the 35 years in, however I will still be sad to hang up my flying helmet in two years time. Come on PM and Armed Forces Minister, it not to late, take your heads out of the sand, realise what is truley happening, and take action now please!
Last edited by HeliAviator; 24th Nov 2006 at 19:48.
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Why would the PM care? He's already pulled the yellow and black, and is just waiting for the seat to go off.
As for time off and respite, it'll still be bloody rubbish when we get back. I don't think we need a break, we need more money spent on fixing what we do have to get it working as it sould.
Anyone flown Tristar recently? Seen the state of the carpets? And the fact there are ADF's for cabin light bulbs? (inability I'm told) How mad is that?
Carpets may not be an operational requirement, but they are the visible signs of the state of what lies beneath the skin...
As for time off and respite, it'll still be bloody rubbish when we get back. I don't think we need a break, we need more money spent on fixing what we do have to get it working as it sould.
Anyone flown Tristar recently? Seen the state of the carpets? And the fact there are ADF's for cabin light bulbs? (inability I'm told) How mad is that?
Carpets may not be an operational requirement, but they are the visible signs of the state of what lies beneath the skin...
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Couldn’t agree more with the views expressed by Helivator and Glum which, by turn, give both comprehensive and crosshair views on the essence of the problem. The root of our woes lies with Helivator’s “Devil’s Advocate” position, regarding the top-level management’s spinal jaundice when it comes to rocking the boat (and risking the Knighthood/perks). “Careerists” know that progression beyond SO1 level does not happen to those who advise the emperor that his ar*e is hanging out. It’s much easier for such careerists to instead (in sage, sober and measured tones of course) dismiss the concerns from the workface as narrow-minded and “lacking the strategic and political overview”. Meanwhile, the relentless grind towards implosion and meltdown continues. How much of a disaster is required before the penny drops?
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It occurs to me that maybe, just maybe, the CAS and associated airships are keeping quiet on this whole issue because they were 'bought off' by the threat of losing the next tranche of the Typhoon.
Bee, everything in your post including, and after, the word 'by' is surplus to requirements! The words bread, side and butter come to mind!