C-130J Upgrade Programme

[nigegilb]

That is all very well Ken but how much does it cost to integrate RWRs in HUDs etc. Cheap fix could be sitting right behind you.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Dear oh dear Scabies,

You really do take all the fun out of Pprune when you bite so easily, still not got a seat I guess

The informed reasoning I use to make the claim that an "extra pair of eyes" is not needed is based on 10 years of flying on the Puma, initially single pilot then 3 man crew, a brief but enjoyable tour on LXX and now almost 6 years of operating the J model, skill sets I would politely suggest you have never developed.

On the Puma there was a definate need for the crewman to nav assist etc, not because of any ability issues with the LHS occupant but simply because at times his having to decipher the limited defensive aids suite, make radio calls and mission manage with the technology available meant that we had a limited but valuable role to play........and bloody good fun it was

I came to the J hoping that I would be able to re create those time but it is simply not possible and more importantly NOT NEEDED. The Avionics suite on the J is just so damn good that..............................sh!t we have been over this ground time and time again.

The only way the sceptics amongst you will ever be convinced is to swallow your pride and come along on a TAC trip and see just how the two guys at the front do their business and all will be revealed, but ask yourself this question.....We currently have pilots and loadies with a wealth of K SF experiance now operating the J and if not a single one of those reckons we need extra eyes then do we?????????

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

His/her problem Ratty is that advances in techonolgy means that he/she no longer has a seat at the coalface and the advent of A400M and the like means he/she never will

Furthermore he/she continues in a very petulant and childlike manner to denigrate the capabilities of the J and question the competancies of those who operate it whilst puffing out his/her chest boasting about his/her daring do's and constantly telling us that the J model has yet to do anything really dangerous

Envy as we see displayed in all his/her postings is not a very pretty thing

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[Ken Scott]

Originally Posted by nigegilb

That is all very well Ken but how much does it cost to integrate RWRs in HUDs etc. Cheap fix could be sitting right behind you.

Nigegilb: the whole point of the J is that the avionics are all integrated - yes, bolting a RWR onto the 'augmented crew position' desk & sitting another person there might work in a limited sense, but you then have to factor in the training costs, salaries, etc to come up with your 'cheap fix'. I for one would rather they did not degrade the efficiency of the flightdeck by keeping the pilots out of part of the information loop. The joy of the J is that the pilots have great SA, and are not dependant on a verbal flow of information, which might be good or bad, from the rear of the cockpit.

I have nothing against WSOs (Navs), I have flown many happy hours with them on an aircraft that needed them because of its outdated kit & the non-integrated nature of its upgrades with bits bolted on here & there. But lets not try & step back several decades - the 2 man flight deck ain't broken, don't try & fix it with a WSO!

[Two's in]

That's the irony of the modern cockpit such as on the J - software driven integrated displays make the job much easier and safer for 2 crew than the previous "UOR goes here, here, and here" on the older cockpits. The trouble is, it costs about ten quid to add another box and 300' of wiring looms, but on the J the mighty LM want a couple of million quid just to open up the OFP software, never mind change it. That leads to the retrograde thought process that it is easier to add boxes, crewmembers, and wires, than to change software, whereas the reality is it's only cheaper in the short term, and leads to this muddled thinking of "Automation through Manpower". It is also a function of the stranglehold the Original Equipment Manufacturers have over the platform upgrades that makes this seem so costly, and that's a direct result of ineffective procurement. Bottom line, don't degrade the platform by cutting corners on upgrades.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Originally Posted by nigegilb

"That is all very well Ken but how much does it cost to integrate RWRs in HUDs etc. Cheap fix could be sitting right behind you."

Is this the same nigegilb who is attempting to create ministerial merry hell because the MOD have taken the cheap option with regards foam in tanks but is now telling us to take the cheap option of employing a WSO instead of full package integration.......................what was that old adage about about faces and town hall clocks

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[nigegilb]

I asked the question how much was the integrated package.

Someone wanted to know why the K is getting the gucci kit.

Try putting 2 and 2 together.

Oh and there is nothing wrong with a cheap fix. When foam was offered in 2002 its cost was $25,000. Cost of a replacement aircraft £50mil. I have no idea if the money is there for an integrated fit for the J, I certainly hope it is. But you could bolt on a solution for a cheaper price. I am just pointing out the options so please don't shoot the messenger.

[Ken Scott]

Originally Posted by nigegilb

Someone wanted to know why the K is getting the gucci kit.

Two reasons: Biggest is the ludicrous price LM puts on any work because it's trying to make up the loss it made on supplying the ac in the first place. Second is the efforts of the 'Nav Mafia' in the staff chain to deride the J & its capabilities in favour of their own 'seat'. I have often been shocked by the hatred directed at our ac, & simply because there's no seat for a directional consultant.

Perhaps we DO need a Nav on board - then with all the competition for postings & promotions in the J Sqns from the WSO branch we might start attracting some more funding!

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Mr Scott,

That is heresy and may your cup be forever rimmed for such an abhorrent suggestion..............the top corridor is currently an odour free zone and long may that continue however I fully concur with your second conclusion

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[nigegilb]

Ken, one of the reasons I kept hammering away at the Herc Foam stuff was because the J initially was not going to get it. You guys have got my total admiration, I know the risks being taken by the J crews.

My life was saved my flight engineer, he was wearing gogs when he should not have been and saw another Herc lights off on a head on collision path. I would always take an extra pair of eyes and ears, but maybe that is because of my personal experience. I can perfectly understand why you want the integrated solution, but I remember the totally outrageous figures banded around 3 years ago. Just hope you get what you want.

PS Agree with what you are saying about the navs.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

My captains meal was saved from burning once cause the GE spotted it was about to boil over...........whilst I wish we always flew with a GE as observant as that it did teach me that flying demands professionalism and to always concentrate on the job in hand

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[nigegilb]

There is no accounting for Americans ignoring SPINS, flying at the East bound level when they are travelling West bound with all their lights off is there?

There is also no accounting for a collision avoidance heading from AWACS actually putting you in a direct collision is there?

Hey ho maybe I should have anticipated the above....Wished I was as good as you. I am sure I am not the only person to have been saved by an engineer, but thanks again fella!

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Reeling in

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[nigegilb]

you got me....bar steward

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Apologies Nige,

Red wine and an evil streak...........a horrible combination

Keep up the good work on the foam front it's much appreciated

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[nigegilb]

No worries, sitting here doing the commander's tax return, turning into Mr Angry.

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Tax return................sounds like she earns shed loads so why so angry......unless it's the clothing allowance your are trying to compute

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[movadinkampa747]

Originally Posted by Always_broken_in_wilts

an evil streak...........a horrible combination

Hello everybody, this is your PPRUNE news reporter
With all the news that is news across PPRUNE
On the scene of C13OJ Thread
There seems to have been some disturbance here
Pardon me sir, did you see what happened?
Yeh, I did...I was standing over there by the "Oh dear" thread
And here he come
Posting thru the C130J thread, thru the "Oh my god I've joined the RAF thread" and "More Merlins"
Naked as a jay-bird
And I hollered over at Nigegilb...I said don't look Nigegilb
It was too late, he'd already been incensed...

Oh yes, they call him the streak
Fastest thing on two feet
He's just as proud as he can be
Of his anatomy
He's gonna give us a peek
Oh yes, they call him the streak
He likes to show off his physique
If there's an audience to be found
He'll be streakin' around
Invitin' public critique ...etc

[Always_broken_in_wilts]

Outstanding

all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced

[glum]

With a limited pot of gold, would the fleet manager rather have bolt on bits and an operator on 6 aircraft, or 1 completely integrated one?

Those are the realistic numbers being considered at the time.

Not really a lot of choice for them was it?

In the current climate, if the K das could be bolted onto the J aircraft (complete with operator) within the budget available, would they rather have that than nothing as now?

Knowing how long it has taken to get the K suite effective, the J would not be fit for use for many years yet I suspect. Still, lots of time away on trials eh?