More Merlins?
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You can rely on them to look cool in tailored desert kit whilst cruising between their accommodation in TDA117 and J1 village (Pizza Hut) in their very shiny WMiKs.
"I'm afraid we don't have any spare personnel to release for convoy protection duties as we are tied up with out important duties at Basrah, you'll have to use stackers and admin lads to do the Al Amara run. Right 2 sqn, lets get back to the plunge pool for a tanning sesh before the good light dies...."
"I'm afraid we don't have any spare personnel to release for convoy protection duties as we are tied up with out important duties at Basrah, you'll have to use stackers and admin lads to do the Al Amara run. Right 2 sqn, lets get back to the plunge pool for a tanning sesh before the good light dies...."
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Back to the subject Gents. I don't understand this anti-Puma sentiment from my fellow nautical bretheren. Sea King is great stable platform for SAR and ISTAR but is too slow and unreliable as SH in todays warfare. We need Puma, not because it's an RAF aircraft, but because it's pretty quick, manouverable and, above all, reliable. Because there are 600 odd in the worldwide fleet, parts are also plentiful and alot cheaper than Sea King. In 10 years time, I bet the only people who have Sea Kings will be us - think of the cost then! Puma has a few achilles heels but nothing frankly that a simple, off the shelf and low risk, update programme won't sort out.
Notwithstanding all above though, the real answer is the EC725.
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/ec725/
http://www.eurocopter.com/site/FO/sc...id=100&lang=EN
Awesome capability (much better than the NH90 at present), proven design (Puma with the few bad bits taken out), ship capable, 28 troop capacity, 1000Nm ferry range and, with all the toys, only €20M a go. Puts Merlin to shame. Pity though thats its not made in Yeovil, I think that will be the governing factor.
Notwithstanding all above though, the real answer is the EC725.
http://www.airforce-technology.com/projects/ec725/
http://www.eurocopter.com/site/FO/sc...id=100&lang=EN
Awesome capability (much better than the NH90 at present), proven design (Puma with the few bad bits taken out), ship capable, 28 troop capacity, 1000Nm ferry range and, with all the toys, only €20M a go. Puts Merlin to shame. Pity though thats its not made in Yeovil, I think that will be the governing factor.
Last edited by Nomad72; 12th Nov 2006 at 14:30.
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I didn't say I supported Sea King, I merely pointed out this 'thrust' for Puma, Supa Puma or Cougar (whatever you want to call it) appears to be driven by politic rather than capability.As for quoting from EC's glossies
- we can play Top Trumps if you like. I choose troop capacity for Utility Merlin = 40, so I win.As you know, we can't and don't believe the hype - it's not a straight comparison. In real life neither of these aircraft can carry anything like that number of troops over the distance we require - try 4 or 5.
And as for £20M a copy; they will make that up in through life costs I'm sure.
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I have experience (to a degree) of all current UK SH types and would take nice shiney new Cougars over fewer nice shiney new Merlins every time. Nothing really against the Merlin, but it's expensive and a little too Gucci for a BH. Also, flying out of Bas, it's often not full, leading to a SK being used and (with tongue firmly in cheek) the troops would be quicker driving. We NEED a SK/Puma size of platform to bridge the gap. Despite what the girls say, bigger isn't always better (and that from a Chinny driver).
We have more chance of NH90 than Cougar (Finmeccanica - Agusta Westland's parent company - have a 17% stake in the NH90 project) - though I'd take NH90 over Merlin too as a Puma replacement.
If we could licence build NH90 or Cougar in Westlands' sheds (as we did with the Puma and the Gazelle) then it may happen - until then, we'll buy more Merlins and Chinooks ad infinitum.
For all it's faults, the Puma will still carry 12 in the heat of the desert (as long as you don't want to take them too far) with the minimum of fuss, disruption and noise - if you're doing urban ops it's far more suitable than our other 2 types (and please don't mention the fat wheezy kid in the corner (Lx)). It's horses for courses isn't it?
We have more chance of NH90 than Cougar (Finmeccanica - Agusta Westland's parent company - have a 17% stake in the NH90 project) - though I'd take NH90 over Merlin too as a Puma replacement.
If we could licence build NH90 or Cougar in Westlands' sheds (as we did with the Puma and the Gazelle) then it may happen - until then, we'll buy more Merlins and Chinooks ad infinitum.
For all it's faults, the Puma will still carry 12 in the heat of the desert (as long as you don't want to take them too far) with the minimum of fuss, disruption and noise - if you're doing urban ops it's far more suitable than our other 2 types (and please don't mention the fat wheezy kid in the corner (Lx)). It's horses for courses isn't it?
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[quote=ProfessionalStudent;2960348]" Also, flying out of Bas, it's often not full, leading to a SK being used and (with tongue firmly in cheek) the troops would be quicker driving. We NEED a SK/Puma size of platform to bridge the gap. Despite what the girls say, bigger isn't always better (and that from a Chinny driver)."
wo wo wo delilah!!!!!
I take it you haven't been to BAS beyond april where the only sight of a SK is in the hangar in bits or on the pan for a VIP show. As for the mighty one being half empty i must have been dreaming when we moved over 150 troops with only two refuels oh yes and at +47c. Oh yes, you can hear them in BAS now WHY ISN'T THAT MERLIN FULL??? "coz ops cocked it up again!!" Oh well just another couple of grand wasted in fuel on the pan.(No accusation of seaking ground runs there! i promise)
wo wo wo delilah!!!!!
I take it you haven't been to BAS beyond april where the only sight of a SK is in the hangar in bits or on the pan for a VIP show. As for the mighty one being half empty i must have been dreaming when we moved over 150 troops with only two refuels oh yes and at +47c. Oh yes, you can hear them in BAS now WHY ISN'T THAT MERLIN FULL??? "coz ops cocked it up again!!" Oh well just another couple of grand wasted in fuel on the pan.(No accusation of seaking ground runs there! i promise)
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And another thing as for something more seaking size here are a few dimensions to ponder: Seaking length=22.15M Merlin=22.81M 66cm difference(i think a small price to pay for an extra 100 miles or so, oh yes and being able to put Fighting Fit troops on the ground afterwards)......I digress.....Seaking rotor diameter(turning, but not often)=18.9M Merlin= wait for it.....even shorter at 18.6M What was your argument again????
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Clapperboard
Wire locked to aggresive eh? Chill your herbs.
Yes, I have been to BAS since April and I do have first hand and intimate experience of heli ops in theatre. Now that the outstations are closed and most of your work is in and around the city (feel free to grab anything I say and take it out of context), I would anticipate that the Merlin is indeed full most of the time. What I meant was that on the occassions that there are 10-14 to move, it would be more efficient to move them in a frame LIKE a SK or Puma in size - like NH90 or Cougar, rather than firing up Mr Westlands newest bastard love-child and flying it around half-full (or perhaps as you'd prefer it, half-empty).
I think the Merlin's doing a sterling job in Bas (though in 3 months I only saw 100% servceability for 20 minutes - less than the SK for the record - fact, not conjecture), and I know the boys are working very hard indeed. My point was that we need a smaller, medium sized BH with a max payload of around 16 (Cougar can realistically take that number a good distance with kit), that has a smaller footprint and is cheaper than Merlin to REPLACE the Puma and SK. If we end up with a fleet full of Chinook and Merlin, there'll be an awful lot of empty seats on an awful lot of sorties, and neither can really do effective urban assaults without destroying the place with downwash and/or being heard from miles away.
Now, pop along back to your tent and get back to your Observer's Book of Helicopters.
Wire locked to aggresive eh? Chill your herbs.
Yes, I have been to BAS since April and I do have first hand and intimate experience of heli ops in theatre. Now that the outstations are closed and most of your work is in and around the city (feel free to grab anything I say and take it out of context), I would anticipate that the Merlin is indeed full most of the time. What I meant was that on the occassions that there are 10-14 to move, it would be more efficient to move them in a frame LIKE a SK or Puma in size - like NH90 or Cougar, rather than firing up Mr Westlands newest bastard love-child and flying it around half-full (or perhaps as you'd prefer it, half-empty).
I think the Merlin's doing a sterling job in Bas (though in 3 months I only saw 100% servceability for 20 minutes - less than the SK for the record - fact, not conjecture), and I know the boys are working very hard indeed. My point was that we need a smaller, medium sized BH with a max payload of around 16 (Cougar can realistically take that number a good distance with kit), that has a smaller footprint and is cheaper than Merlin to REPLACE the Puma and SK. If we end up with a fleet full of Chinook and Merlin, there'll be an awful lot of empty seats on an awful lot of sorties, and neither can really do effective urban assaults without destroying the place with downwash and/or being heard from miles away.
Now, pop along back to your tent and get back to your Observer's Book of Helicopters.
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Have to say that during my time in Kandahar the difference between the RAF Regt doing camp security and our Allies was hugely noticeable. Hats off from me for a difficult job carried out with utmost professionalism.
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Prof Stude,
Interesting you should say [QUOTE](feel free to grab anything I say and take it out of context)[QUOTE] when you had only 50% of the previous clause correct. Good point about the size of replacement; 'empty seats' are wasted but 'no seats' is no good at all.
Clapper, quality rant for your second post. Any more left...?
WC
Interesting you should say [QUOTE](feel free to grab anything I say and take it out of context)[QUOTE] when you had only 50% of the previous clause correct. Good point about the size of replacement; 'empty seats' are wasted but 'no seats' is no good at all.
Clapper, quality rant for your second post. Any more left...?
WC
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Without Care
Yeah, I knew I was using a fairly broad gauged brush about the area of employment - difficult to be more specific with op sec and space available.
We DO need a halfway house between the little wheezy kid and the big fat kid though. A Centre to compliment the lithe Backs and the bonecrushing Forwards.
Yeah, I knew I was using a fairly broad gauged brush about the area of employment - difficult to be more specific with op sec and space available.
We DO need a halfway house between the little wheezy kid and the big fat kid though. A Centre to compliment the lithe Backs and the bonecrushing Forwards.
