Promotion whilst medically downgraded??
Thread Starter
Promotion whilst medically downgraded??
Can someone help out please? I've asked my shinies but they haven't got a clue where to start looking to answer the question!
Unfortunately I'm currently a sicky/admin burden type, having been downgraded to G3 status because I've got gammy legs. I did have a series of ops to sort it out, but have now found other problems which were being masked by what I had the operation for.
A medical discharge is not an issue because I'm only air tragic and the leg issue doesn't affect my ability to do my job. I'd be cr*p with or without decent legs.
Anyway, I understand that if I stay as G3 (not something that I'm planning to do) then I can't be offered further service to 55, but does that mean that I can't get promoted as I understand that promotion to SO2 goes hand-in-hand with the offer of further service?
Without wishing to sound like a lawyer I can well understand why I can't get further service to 55, but can they limit my promotion due to, for want of a better word, a disability?
Thanks in anticipation
Unfortunately I'm currently a sicky/admin burden type, having been downgraded to G3 status because I've got gammy legs. I did have a series of ops to sort it out, but have now found other problems which were being masked by what I had the operation for.
A medical discharge is not an issue because I'm only air tragic and the leg issue doesn't affect my ability to do my job. I'd be cr*p with or without decent legs.
Anyway, I understand that if I stay as G3 (not something that I'm planning to do) then I can't be offered further service to 55, but does that mean that I can't get promoted as I understand that promotion to SO2 goes hand-in-hand with the offer of further service?
Without wishing to sound like a lawyer I can well understand why I can't get further service to 55, but can they limit my promotion due to, for want of a better word, a disability?
Thanks in anticipation
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Agree with South Bound. Mate of mine was promoted to Sgt despite being downgraded. He was only offered further/extension of service when his Med Cat improved.
Am sure PMA would caveat that with the bog standard 'each case considered individually' though.
Am sure PMA would caveat that with the bog standard 'each case considered individually' though.
Last edited by fabs; 2nd Oct 2006 at 14:55. Reason: I got South Bound's name wrong
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True, again same branch as FW, promoted WO and permanently unfit deployment etc. However turned it down as did not like the posting choices. PMA then turned down the application for extension of service beyond 55.
Had he accepted WO and the posting he would no doubt have been extended.
Had he accepted WO and the posting he would no doubt have been extended.
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Nearly:
If you are permanently downgraded then you can be promoted but not signed on.
If you are temporarily downgraded then you can not be promoted or signed on until you have been formally assessed - either permanently downgraded or fully fit.
PA
If you are permanently downgraded then you can be promoted but not signed on.
If you are temporarily downgraded then you can not be promoted or signed on until you have been formally assessed - either permanently downgraded or fully fit.
PA
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I agree with the statements saying yes to promotion but no to further service.
The way I understand it is that any offer of further service requires a medical examination to confirm medical category. This then puts the offer on hold if the medical category is not good enough - although I don't understand what the differrent codes mean!
I'm A4 G1 Z1 which I think means send me anywhere you like sir/ ma'am 'cos I'm actually earning my x factor AND I'll do your fitness test every year for no extra financial reward or penalty to those that can't / won't / don't.
The way I understand it is that any offer of further service requires a medical examination to confirm medical category. This then puts the offer on hold if the medical category is not good enough - although I don't understand what the differrent codes mean!
I'm A4 G1 Z1 which I think means send me anywhere you like sir/ ma'am 'cos I'm actually earning my x factor AND I'll do your fitness test every year for no extra financial reward or penalty to those that can't / won't / don't.
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I was promoted to Sgt with a Med Cat of A4G4Z1 (Perm) in 2003 but had no offer of further service.
The rules changed about 4 years ago - then you had to be within your last 2 years of service before you could be propmoted. Now you are meant to be selected exactly the same as someone who is not downgraded. If you are selected then your file goes to the Med people at PMA who decide if you can be effectivly employed within a post in your trade and rank.
The rules changed about 4 years ago - then you had to be within your last 2 years of service before you could be propmoted. Now you are meant to be selected exactly the same as someone who is not downgraded. If you are selected then your file goes to the Med people at PMA who decide if you can be effectivly employed within a post in your trade and rank.
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You need to speak to the Chf Clk, who will know this as it is bread and butter stuff, however, the detailed rules are contained in ASPIs (Air Secs Personnel Staff Instructions) and can be found in the RAF Pubs Library through DII etc. You can be promoted and offererd Further Service, but there are limitations. ASPIs state:
FURTHER SERVICE WITH REDUCED MES
37. Further service is not normally permitted for those with an MES below A4G2Z1. However, in those ranks/trades, in which there are particular manning difficulties, personnel may be considered for further service. The list of rank/trades which are critically undermanned will be identified by PMA 7a (in consultation with PMA 6/SM1B (HQPTC).
38. The Board will take into account relevant training, experience and performance as well as the latest medical advice. If the Board considers that FS would be appropriate, the normal period offered will be 3 years; this offer will not constitute any form of precedent or guarantee of continued service thereafter. Second and subsequent FS reviews will be dictated by the manning requirement at the time of the review.
39. Personnel offered FS in accordance with the above paragraphs will remain eligible for discharge under QR 607(10)(f)(ii).
Hope this helps
FURTHER SERVICE WITH REDUCED MES
37. Further service is not normally permitted for those with an MES below A4G2Z1. However, in those ranks/trades, in which there are particular manning difficulties, personnel may be considered for further service. The list of rank/trades which are critically undermanned will be identified by PMA 7a (in consultation with PMA 6/SM1B (HQPTC).
38. The Board will take into account relevant training, experience and performance as well as the latest medical advice. If the Board considers that FS would be appropriate, the normal period offered will be 3 years; this offer will not constitute any form of precedent or guarantee of continued service thereafter. Second and subsequent FS reviews will be dictated by the manning requirement at the time of the review.
39. Personnel offered FS in accordance with the above paragraphs will remain eligible for discharge under QR 607(10)(f)(ii).
Hope this helps
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Additionanlly, the promotion ASPI states:
24. Low MES. Where it has been identified that an individual on the PSL has an MES below A4 G2 Z1 his/her case is to be considered by a Board of Officers using the proforma shown at Annex G. The Board is to consider the full implications of the restrictions imposed on the individual before making their decision. The Board is to decide whether to:
a. Authorise Advancement (without FS). In making this decision the Board is to consider:
(1) The individual’s RSE date.
(2) The establishment and manning position of the individual’s current and next rank to judge whether the individual can be absorbed with limited employability.
(3) The effect of the limitation on the individual’s postability to overseas areas and the outer islands.
(4) The individual’s ability, medically, to cope with any change of job content involved with the higher rank.
(5) Where the Board of Officers has decided to promote individuals with a reduced MES then a further decision is to be made as to whether they are to attend a Management and Leadership course (MLC). These personnel are to be placed into 1 of 3 categories and they are to be dealt with as shown below:
(a) those with a permanent MES.
(b) those with a temporary MES who are not expected to become fit for MLC within 12 months of the promotion date.
)
)
)
)
To attend MLC in the normal way, however, they will only be required to undertake those parts of the course for which they are medically fit.
(c) those with a temporary MES who are to become fit for MLC within 12 months of the promotion date.
)
)
)
To be granted NPAR on their expected due promotion date and they are to attend MLC when fit to do so. The procedures shown at para 17 or 26a should then follow.
If advancement is authorised the Trade Squadron should make a formal offer of promotion as per para 4 but the signal should include the comment “promotion is offered notwithstanding that the individual’s MES is A__ G__ Z__”. PMA 8a(2) is to record the change in rank iaw Reference C. The individual’s PD is then to be passed to PMA 8b(1) for F6639A action, if appropriate.
b. Retain on the PSL but Defer their Decision. Normally, the Board should take this course of action if the individual has a temporary MES and a review should be held after the date of the MES review.
c. Delete from PSL. In this case PMA 8a(2) is to take action as per para 30.
24. Low MES. Where it has been identified that an individual on the PSL has an MES below A4 G2 Z1 his/her case is to be considered by a Board of Officers using the proforma shown at Annex G. The Board is to consider the full implications of the restrictions imposed on the individual before making their decision. The Board is to decide whether to:
a. Authorise Advancement (without FS). In making this decision the Board is to consider:
(1) The individual’s RSE date.
(2) The establishment and manning position of the individual’s current and next rank to judge whether the individual can be absorbed with limited employability.
(3) The effect of the limitation on the individual’s postability to overseas areas and the outer islands.
(4) The individual’s ability, medically, to cope with any change of job content involved with the higher rank.
(5) Where the Board of Officers has decided to promote individuals with a reduced MES then a further decision is to be made as to whether they are to attend a Management and Leadership course (MLC). These personnel are to be placed into 1 of 3 categories and they are to be dealt with as shown below:
(a) those with a permanent MES.
(b) those with a temporary MES who are not expected to become fit for MLC within 12 months of the promotion date.
)
)
)
)
To attend MLC in the normal way, however, they will only be required to undertake those parts of the course for which they are medically fit.
(c) those with a temporary MES who are to become fit for MLC within 12 months of the promotion date.
)
)
)
To be granted NPAR on their expected due promotion date and they are to attend MLC when fit to do so. The procedures shown at para 17 or 26a should then follow.
If advancement is authorised the Trade Squadron should make a formal offer of promotion as per para 4 but the signal should include the comment “promotion is offered notwithstanding that the individual’s MES is A__ G__ Z__”. PMA 8a(2) is to record the change in rank iaw Reference C. The individual’s PD is then to be passed to PMA 8b(1) for F6639A action, if appropriate.
b. Retain on the PSL but Defer their Decision. Normally, the Board should take this course of action if the individual has a temporary MES and a review should be held after the date of the MES review.
c. Delete from PSL. In this case PMA 8a(2) is to take action as per para 30.
Gentleman Aviator
Am I missing something here? Surely the question is implicitly from a flt lt
yet most of the replies quote airman regs which are different IIRC.
Certainly for a zob (is the word still current?) promotion to sqn ldr gives the right of service to 55, and the two cannot be separated that way round.
Assimilation can give service to 55 without promotion, but promotion (to sqn ldr) must always carry with it option (individuals' option, not the RAF's) to serve to 55. Bit out of date on P2 matters but I think that's still the case - I'll try and find the right ASPI.......
Edited to add: The short answer is that for officers "it depends" and each case is looked at individually by a Board of Officers who complete the form at Annex I to ASPI Vol 2 Pt 3 Chap 6. (Which is here for those with access.)
In short, promotion Board Process goes ahead as normal, and if selected the Annex I process is gone through, signed off eventually by the Air Sec. Hope that's helpful ....
promotion to SO2 goes hand-in-hand with the offer of further service?
Certainly for a zob (is the word still current?) promotion to sqn ldr gives the right of service to 55, and the two cannot be separated that way round.
Assimilation can give service to 55 without promotion, but promotion (to sqn ldr) must always carry with it option (individuals' option, not the RAF's) to serve to 55. Bit out of date on P2 matters but I think that's still the case - I'll try and find the right ASPI.......
Edited to add: The short answer is that for officers "it depends" and each case is looked at individually by a Board of Officers who complete the form at Annex I to ASPI Vol 2 Pt 3 Chap 6. (Which is here for those with access.)
In short, promotion Board Process goes ahead as normal, and if selected the Annex I process is gone through, signed off eventually by the Air Sec. Hope that's helpful ....
Last edited by teeteringhead; 3rd Oct 2006 at 14:11. Reason: Found the reference
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Even though there are many guys and girls with 100% medical problems, the darker side play the sick card to great effect.
It's just a great shame the doctors have to put up their big umbrella to cover themselves, no matter how petty the problem the chancer tries.
Example :-
JT is promoted to Cpl. Cpl has minor shoulder problem. Cpl is not allowed to serve more than 30days OOA. Cpl does not see a grain of sand for over 4years. Cpl now pushes to get himself upgraded. Cpl upgraded. Cpl looks good to get his Sgt v.soon.
FbS
It's just a great shame the doctors have to put up their big umbrella to cover themselves, no matter how petty the problem the chancer tries.
Example :-
JT is promoted to Cpl. Cpl has minor shoulder problem. Cpl is not allowed to serve more than 30days OOA. Cpl does not see a grain of sand for over 4years. Cpl now pushes to get himself upgraded. Cpl upgraded. Cpl looks good to get his Sgt v.soon.
FbS
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This is the relevant bit:
Promotion of Officers with Lowered Medical Employment Standards. An officer with a lowered Medical Employment Standard (MES) may be selected for promotion subject to his/her MES being adjudged acceptable. (Note: A temporary lowered MES awarded to an officer solely because of pregnancy does not constitute an unacceptable medical standard). PMA(Medical) is to inform CMs of an individual with a lowered MES by sending notification on the OP Pt 1 File. The CM must then initiate a review to ascertain if the officer is likely to be able to serve for the requisite period in the new rank by completing Pt 1 to Annex I. The Review Board is then forwarded to PMA(Medical) for advice. Once returned to the CM, Annex H will be forwarded to the potential gaining CM for comment on an individual's ability to serve in the new rank before a final decision on the individual's promotability is made by the Board President. In cases when the candidate's ability to serve for the requisite period in the new rank, as detailed in para 38 above, is deemed unlikely the Air Secretary will make the decision on whether or not the promotion can be ratified. Following the completion of Pt 6 to Annex I the OP File will be returned to PMA 8a(1).
Cut off standards for non flying branch = A4G3Z1
Flyers are cut off @ A2G2Z1
PSI Vol 2 Pt 3 Chap 6
Promotion of Officers with Lowered Medical Employment Standards. An officer with a lowered Medical Employment Standard (MES) may be selected for promotion subject to his/her MES being adjudged acceptable. (Note: A temporary lowered MES awarded to an officer solely because of pregnancy does not constitute an unacceptable medical standard). PMA(Medical) is to inform CMs of an individual with a lowered MES by sending notification on the OP Pt 1 File. The CM must then initiate a review to ascertain if the officer is likely to be able to serve for the requisite period in the new rank by completing Pt 1 to Annex I. The Review Board is then forwarded to PMA(Medical) for advice. Once returned to the CM, Annex H will be forwarded to the potential gaining CM for comment on an individual's ability to serve in the new rank before a final decision on the individual's promotability is made by the Board President. In cases when the candidate's ability to serve for the requisite period in the new rank, as detailed in para 38 above, is deemed unlikely the Air Secretary will make the decision on whether or not the promotion can be ratified. Following the completion of Pt 6 to Annex I the OP File will be returned to PMA 8a(1).
Cut off standards for non flying branch = A4G3Z1
Flyers are cut off @ A2G2Z1
PSI Vol 2 Pt 3 Chap 6
Thread Starter
Thanks very much everyone! Unfortunately I did talk to the Chief Clerk and all I got was "uhhhh, yes I'll try and find out for you Sir." Followed a few weeks later by "Oh, sorry Sir, we've all been very busy Sir." Shortly followed by me enquiring sotto voce whether that was a contradiction in terms.
In this case I would hope that the PMA bit wasn't a problem as I've been the one talking the docs into letting me do the fitness test, albeit the peddaling one, to prove that I'm not a biff. Got above average on everything last year, even with the spare tyre!
Thanks again all
In this case I would hope that the PMA bit wasn't a problem as I've been the one talking the docs into letting me do the fitness test, albeit the peddaling one, to prove that I'm not a biff. Got above average on everything last year, even with the spare tyre!
Thanks again all
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Kitbag,
Apologies if I have interpreted your post incorrectly, but are you saying pilots cannot be promoted if they hold a MES lower than A2G2Z1? So all those flying on an A3 med cat with certain caveats ('as or with co-pilot' / 'no ejection seats' etc) can't be promoted? Interested as could be relevant to my own career at some point in the future!
Cheers
Apologies if I have interpreted your post incorrectly, but are you saying pilots cannot be promoted if they hold a MES lower than A2G2Z1? So all those flying on an A3 med cat with certain caveats ('as or with co-pilot' / 'no ejection seats' etc) can't be promoted? Interested as could be relevant to my own career at some point in the future!
Cheers
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Don't worry - I was promoted at A3 for back problems. I think that it's your G and Z category, particularly Out of Areas, that may influence future employability and retention in the Trade, when you're boarded.
But I was told that it depended on numbers in seats too...
But I was told that it depended on numbers in seats too...
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3turnspin
I'm not an adminer so to be honest I won't pretend to know the definitive answer, I suspect as others have said that prevailing numbers, competences etc will be important, and at the end of the day if you are downgraded you have a couple of extra hoops to jump through, primarily a medical board.
Could you go PA instead?
I'm not an adminer so to be honest I won't pretend to know the definitive answer, I suspect as others have said that prevailing numbers, competences etc will be important, and at the end of the day if you are downgraded you have a couple of extra hoops to jump through, primarily a medical board.
Could you go PA instead?
