RAF "Utterly, Utterly, Useless" in Afghanistan
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Yes I saw that. Unfortunately it was whilst eating a particularly crusty piece of bread over lunch which quickly got lodged in my throat after I'd bellowed my tirade at the paper. I don't know about swallowing bitter pills, but I do know something about especially jagged chucks of baguette. 
It's been a revelation actually this weekend getting the chance to read the papers and see how much the decent paper media are covering HM's finest at the moment. Between the story highlighted in a thread yesterday about the young deceased private's letter to his girlfriend, Afghanistan various, Iraq and young Beharry. That excerpt from his book alone was worth the cost of lugging the weight of the Torygraph back to the mansion.
It's been a revelation actually this weekend getting the chance to read the papers and see how much the decent paper media are covering HM's finest at the moment. Between the story highlighted in a thread yesterday about the young deceased private's letter to his girlfriend, Afghanistan various, Iraq and young Beharry. That excerpt from his book alone was worth the cost of lugging the weight of the Torygraph back to the mansion.
It's depressing, seriously depressing.
One more Harrier for Afghanistan and it is announced by the SoS.
Head of the Army (utterly, utterly unimpressive) gives a very poor interview on the BBC and admits he does not know the casualty numbers.
B list celeb gets rolled in a jet powered car and recieves 'hundreds' of floral arrangements and 'thousands' of cards and messages. Air Ambulance donations top £130,000 as a result (that is a good thing). Our servicemen and women who have been injured get shoved onto any old ward and are completely ignored by the media and the public.
We have just been told that all internal air travel now has to be signed off at Gp Capt level and overseas air travel by a 1 star.
Afghanistan is about 50 times bigger than Northern Ireland yet how many troops are in NI compared to Afghanistan?
I have heard many times the phrase that ' we need a different kind of leader in peacetime than we do in war time'. Boy, are we paying for that now.
We have seriously lost the plot.
One more Harrier for Afghanistan and it is announced by the SoS.
Head of the Army (utterly, utterly unimpressive) gives a very poor interview on the BBC and admits he does not know the casualty numbers.
B list celeb gets rolled in a jet powered car and recieves 'hundreds' of floral arrangements and 'thousands' of cards and messages. Air Ambulance donations top £130,000 as a result (that is a good thing). Our servicemen and women who have been injured get shoved onto any old ward and are completely ignored by the media and the public.
We have just been told that all internal air travel now has to be signed off at Gp Capt level and overseas air travel by a 1 star.
Afghanistan is about 50 times bigger than Northern Ireland yet how many troops are in NI compared to Afghanistan?
I have heard many times the phrase that ' we need a different kind of leader in peacetime than we do in war time'. Boy, are we paying for that now.
We have seriously lost the plot.
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I agree wholeheartedly Wyler, the Lebanon saw round the clock coverage by every news team along with reams and reams of newspaper print. Alas it seems HM Forces are responsible for our own failings and therefore are not worthy of Air time etc.
Or is it that doing the governments work just isnt pc enough for the general public let alone the muslim communities! There was a debate a month or two ago about wearing uniform at airports...bugger that! In this climate your more likely to be spat on than clapped!
Or is it that doing the governments work just isnt pc enough for the general public let alone the muslim communities! There was a debate a month or two ago about wearing uniform at airports...bugger that! In this climate your more likely to be spat on than clapped!
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Maple 01 states that the Harriers deployed in Afghanistan to provide CAS to the ground troops have not been strafing or rocketing. If that is true, can someone please enlighten this ignorant pongo (me) as to how they are delivering the CAS? Flares?
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http://www.raf.mod.uk/equipment/harrier.html
Rocket pods close in? Rather you than me!
Still, I stand corrected, CRV-7 pods are available in theatre
Area attack weapon, not the kind of thing used in close. Unless anyone else knows different? Seem to remember talk of the 'beaten path' around this kind of weapon rather than 'one or two well aimed shots'
Rocket pods close in? Rather you than me!
Still, I stand corrected, CRV-7 pods are available in theatre
the CRV-7 – with a 19-rocket pack capable of covering an area of around 200m (650ft)
strafe (strf)
tr.v. strafed, straf•ing, strafes
To attack (ground troops, for example) with a machine gun or cannon from a low-flying aircraft.
n.
An attack of machine-gun or cannon fire from a low-flying aircraft.
tr.v. strafed, straf•ing, strafes
To attack (ground troops, for example) with a machine gun or cannon from a low-flying aircraft.
n.
An attack of machine-gun or cannon fire from a low-flying aircraft.
Last edited by Maple 01; 24th Sep 2006 at 18:57.
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http://www.raf.mod.uk/equipment/harrier.html
Rocket pods close in? Rather you than me!
Still, I stand corrected, CRV-7 pods are available in theatre
Area attack weapon, not the kind of thing used in close. Unless anyone else knows different? Seem to remember talk of the 'beaten path' around this kind of weapon rather than 'one or two well aimed shots'
Rocket pods close in? Rather you than me!
Still, I stand corrected, CRV-7 pods are available in theatre
Area attack weapon, not the kind of thing used in close. Unless anyone else knows different? Seem to remember talk of the 'beaten path' around this kind of weapon rather than 'one or two well aimed shots'
Yes maple but to the man on the ground (Whom is under fire and thus usually taking cover) a flash of smoke from a harrier followed by 38 impacts could be seen as cannon fire!
The point about the CRV-7 rockets, I think, is more that they don't seem to fit the description in the e-mail, since the RAF doesn't have the WP heads that were a feature of Jamie Loden's comments. However, Black n' Yellar's post suggests that the USMC haven't used them either....
He may have meant strafe with rockets, but we can't be sure. And there's the problem. Until he's asked, we can't be sure, and he's probably not going to appear in print to clarify whether or not he misunderstood what 'strafe' means any time soon, I suspect. Who fired the rockets/strafed, though, seems to me to be rather pointless speculation.
It seems to me that there's a serious danger here, though, of this spiralling into 'it was the RAF'/ no it wasn't/ Was/Wasn't/etc/ad nauseum/please God make it stop' argument here. And the press will love that (as the Observer this morning shows).
I'd respectfully suggest that inter-service points scoring will risk obscuring the fact that the we debate, amongst other things, whether or not this incident means that we shouldn't start demanding why the government spends
£123 Billion on Quangos (yes, that is BILLION) at a time when the armed forces are rather stretched, and whether or not it the money would be better spent elsewhere.
That might be more difficult for the press lurking here to make easy copy from than 'we hate the RAF/ Army doesn't understand air power' comments, or analysing Jamie Loden's comments based on an incomplete picture (and even the complete e-mails don't necessarily provide one).
Far more important, surely, that if the media are going to start basing stories on this thread they get not inter-service willy-waving, but reasoned debate about the wider issue of Afghanistan. At least that gives the media the chance to pick up the points and run with them, even if they choose not to.
Given that further exploration of the Treasury's treatment of defence issues might be embarrassing for Mr Strangely Broon, you'd have thought they might show more than a scintilla of interest in the subject for once - and that might , ultimately (optimist that I am) help those in near constant contact in Afghanistan get the kit and level of support that they deserve. [Sorry if that's turned into a slight rant]
He may have meant strafe with rockets, but we can't be sure. And there's the problem. Until he's asked, we can't be sure, and he's probably not going to appear in print to clarify whether or not he misunderstood what 'strafe' means any time soon, I suspect. Who fired the rockets/strafed, though, seems to me to be rather pointless speculation.
It seems to me that there's a serious danger here, though, of this spiralling into 'it was the RAF'/ no it wasn't/ Was/Wasn't/etc/ad nauseum/please God make it stop' argument here. And the press will love that (as the Observer this morning shows).
I'd respectfully suggest that inter-service points scoring will risk obscuring the fact that the we debate, amongst other things, whether or not this incident means that we shouldn't start demanding why the government spends
£123 Billion on Quangos (yes, that is BILLION) at a time when the armed forces are rather stretched, and whether or not it the money would be better spent elsewhere.
That might be more difficult for the press lurking here to make easy copy from than 'we hate the RAF/ Army doesn't understand air power' comments, or analysing Jamie Loden's comments based on an incomplete picture (and even the complete e-mails don't necessarily provide one).
Far more important, surely, that if the media are going to start basing stories on this thread they get not inter-service willy-waving, but reasoned debate about the wider issue of Afghanistan. At least that gives the media the chance to pick up the points and run with them, even if they choose not to.
Given that further exploration of the Treasury's treatment of defence issues might be embarrassing for Mr Strangely Broon, you'd have thought they might show more than a scintilla of interest in the subject for once - and that might , ultimately (optimist that I am) help those in near constant contact in Afghanistan get the kit and level of support that they deserve. [Sorry if that's turned into a slight rant]
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It seems both RAF and USMC Harriers are in Afghanistan now and the RAF ones are using rockets:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...922-afpn01.htm
It was rockets that the Major was initially complaining about:
[Referring to air support during a fight with the Taliban] Harrier couldn't identify and fired rockets that just missed Coy HQ compound. l Comd ... put in a snap ambush and slowed them up with a heavy rate of fire. ... no casualties, lots of ammo expended!
Does anyone know the date and area of this incident? We can probably find out who was in the air that day.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/milita...922-afpn01.htm
It was rockets that the Major was initially complaining about:
[Referring to air support during a fight with the Taliban] Harrier couldn't identify and fired rockets that just missed Coy HQ compound. l Comd ... put in a snap ambush and slowed them up with a heavy rate of fire. ... no casualties, lots of ammo expended!
Does anyone know the date and area of this incident? We can probably find out who was in the air that day.
Last edited by Lazer-Hound; 24th Sep 2006 at 19:43.
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Far be it for me to defend a Jurno, even Jacko, who has at times been described as having gone 'native' 
but where has he slagged off the USMC? I think the lady do protest too much........
You weren’t on the ATO that day were you? *
*Smilie in this situation is to indicate a joke
but where has he slagged off the USMC? I think the lady do protest too much........You weren’t on the ATO that day were you?
**Smilie in this situation is to indicate a joke
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Jacko has always been upfront in his anti-US views and very pro-RAF (The two viewpoints do NOT have to be synonomous by the way). It is just anathema to him that a mistake (was it? Or did the CAS pilot(s) go in as close as they dared since everyone in theater is no doubt hyper-sensitive to another 'blue on blue'? Until that bit is known, perhaps the mud-slinging should be withheld?) could be a non-US one.
I don't know his professional work being on this side of the Atlantic, but he should know it shouldn't be difficult to track down the story. If it was US CAS, the PR types at CENTAF should be able to provide that info. Instead, his apparent efforts to prove it wasn't RAF Harriers involved seems to me, to miss the bigger picture.
To wit: SIX jets is the total CAS effort? And that commitment stretches the force? And sending a spare makes the news? YGBSM!
I don't know his professional work being on this side of the Atlantic, but he should know it shouldn't be difficult to track down the story. If it was US CAS, the PR types at CENTAF should be able to provide that info. Instead, his apparent efforts to prove it wasn't RAF Harriers involved seems to me, to miss the bigger picture.
To wit: SIX jets is the total CAS effort? And that commitment stretches the force? And sending a spare makes the news? YGBSM!
No, I'm not. I'm just suggesting that the good major's opinion may (you understand the words may and might, Marc?) not be reliable.
He specifically moaned about a female RAF Harrier pilot's inaccuracy with 'strafe' and with WP rockets.
He seems to be claiming three things that would be impossible from an RAF Harrier at the time, but possible from a USMC AV-8B, a Dutch F-16, or who knows what else.
He specifically moaned about a female RAF Harrier pilot's inaccuracy with 'strafe' and with WP rockets.
He seems to be claiming three things that would be impossible from an RAF Harrier at the time, but possible from a USMC AV-8B, a Dutch F-16, or who knows what else.