Defending the Harrier - I need ammunition
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NoseGunner,
What planet are you on? Each post you make confirms my original impression that you are an ignorant, opinionated plonker. The major, who is an operationally experienced rifle company commander, has been engaged in desperate close quarter battle with a fearless, cunning and effective enemy fighting on his own ground. His company has taken casualties and has not received effective close air support from the RAF Harriers who are out there to fulfill one single purpose: to give effective close air support to him and his fellow pongos. It is not the fault of the airmen; the RAF do not have an effective CAS weapon system. The Harrier doesn't even have a gun, for heaven's sake.
Please tell me what part of his complaint is utter bollocks. What has he said that is factually inaccurate? Is he somehow mistaken and has in fact received effective support? And how the hell does a theoretical appreciation of air power help him with his problems on the ground?
You have the arrogance to accuse him, a senior and highly qualified infantry officer, of lack of knowledge of the most capable weapons available to him. You mean, I presume, the Harrier, which is clearly not in fact proving very effective. He should know. He is there, under fire and unsupported for God's sake. If you personally don't believe they are utterly, utterly useless then you go on down to Afghanistan, join him in his trench and see how effective the CAS really is.
You blather about solving problems of interoperability and open and honest debriefings. They are not on a blasted training exercise down there. It is as real as it gets and the oppo are firing ball.
What experience do you have which qualifies you to sling mud at a real warrior? I thought so!
What planet are you on? Each post you make confirms my original impression that you are an ignorant, opinionated plonker. The major, who is an operationally experienced rifle company commander, has been engaged in desperate close quarter battle with a fearless, cunning and effective enemy fighting on his own ground. His company has taken casualties and has not received effective close air support from the RAF Harriers who are out there to fulfill one single purpose: to give effective close air support to him and his fellow pongos. It is not the fault of the airmen; the RAF do not have an effective CAS weapon system. The Harrier doesn't even have a gun, for heaven's sake.
Please tell me what part of his complaint is utter bollocks. What has he said that is factually inaccurate? Is he somehow mistaken and has in fact received effective support? And how the hell does a theoretical appreciation of air power help him with his problems on the ground?
You have the arrogance to accuse him, a senior and highly qualified infantry officer, of lack of knowledge of the most capable weapons available to him. You mean, I presume, the Harrier, which is clearly not in fact proving very effective. He should know. He is there, under fire and unsupported for God's sake. If you personally don't believe they are utterly, utterly useless then you go on down to Afghanistan, join him in his trench and see how effective the CAS really is.
You blather about solving problems of interoperability and open and honest debriefings. They are not on a blasted training exercise down there. It is as real as it gets and the oppo are firing ball.
What experience do you have which qualifies you to sling mud at a real warrior? I thought so!
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Gau-12?
Dumb question time, so pls bear with me.... and BEADWINDOW understood!
I too was confused by the "strafing" comments of the 3 Para Major - for whom I have the utmost respect and wish (as a crab) that we had something more suitable to help out with (and doubtless, more of them....).
However, following the deletion of the GR7's UK gun (Aden 25mm IIRC?), can the GR7/9 airframe take the AV-8B's GAU-12 - which I understand is a 25mm gatling related (however distantly) to the A-10's GAU-8? If it can, how quickly could it be integrated (remember the bl**dy good effort of the techies to integrate Maverick onto GR7 a few years ago after it was supposedly unavailable on GR7s), and if not, why not.
Cheers
S41
I too was confused by the "strafing" comments of the 3 Para Major - for whom I have the utmost respect and wish (as a crab) that we had something more suitable to help out with (and doubtless, more of them....).
However, following the deletion of the GR7's UK gun (Aden 25mm IIRC?), can the GR7/9 airframe take the AV-8B's GAU-12 - which I understand is a 25mm gatling related (however distantly) to the A-10's GAU-8? If it can, how quickly could it be integrated (remember the bl**dy good effort of the techies to integrate Maverick onto GR7 a few years ago after it was supposedly unavailable on GR7s), and if not, why not.
Cheers
S41
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Deliverence
Yes, the Harrier in its latest version is a lousy CAS platform. The crews, God bless them, will always do their best, but they cannot make a silk purse out of a sows ear. The infantry need a CAS aircraft that can deliver accurate, timely and effective ordnance onto an enemy in close contact with our own troops. Its called close air support. Our MOD and politicians have failed to provide a suitable aircraft and they should be hanged out to dry for their criminal failure.
And I don't think that the Army making a complaint up the chain of command is going to produce a timely deliverence from the Major's immediate tactical problem. Give me strength!
Yes, the Harrier in its latest version is a lousy CAS platform. The crews, God bless them, will always do their best, but they cannot make a silk purse out of a sows ear. The infantry need a CAS aircraft that can deliver accurate, timely and effective ordnance onto an enemy in close contact with our own troops. Its called close air support. Our MOD and politicians have failed to provide a suitable aircraft and they should be hanged out to dry for their criminal failure.
And I don't think that the Army making a complaint up the chain of command is going to produce a timely deliverence from the Major's immediate tactical problem. Give me strength!
ClockworkMouse,
So the Harrier is a useless CAS aircraft, primarily because it does not have a gun, eh!
You, Sir, are a cretin, and every post you make further confirms this.
So the Harrier is a useless CAS aircraft, primarily because it does not have a gun, eh!
You, Sir, are a cretin, and every post you make further confirms this.
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F62
Ok, so I'm a cretin. But the Harrier is still not a good CAS aircraft and you, I presume, are a Harrier pilot. How frustrating for you. I am, or was, an infantryman.
Ok, so I'm a cretin. But the Harrier is still not a good CAS aircraft and you, I presume, are a Harrier pilot. How frustrating for you. I am, or was, an infantryman.
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Flaps62,
don't give him too hard a time. You must remember that he is a pongo & only understands weapons up to and including the calibre of Cannon.
Guns & rifles rool!
don't give him too hard a time. You must remember that he is a pongo & only understands weapons up to and including the calibre of Cannon.
Guns & rifles rool!
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Right well I'm gonna keep thrashing away - although gagging a bit as I seem to have a hook, line and sinker obstructing my throat. The humiliation is unbearable!
And to make it worse I'm finding myself completely in agreement with a harrier pilot.
I need to go for a quiet lie down in a dark place.
And to make it worse I'm finding myself completely in agreement with a harrier pilot.
I need to go for a quiet lie down in a dark place.
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"don't give him too hard a time. You must remember that he is a pongo & only understands weapons up to and including the calibre of Cannon."
What ever happened to the customer is always right
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
What ever happened to the customer is always right
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
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The RAF Harrier, in it's current ground attack configuration, is not the best aircraft in the world for supporting ground troops in the close air support role. If anyone here wants to dispute that, bring it on.
There is no doubt in my mind, that the pilots that fly the RAF Harrier are the best pilots in the RAF. Believe me, I've trained some of them. Frighteningly good.
Weirdly outstanding in their situational-awareness they can see and do stuff that the rest of us can simply goggle at.
I just wish that the government would provide the best kit.
But they don't.
If you had to do a job - any job, ask a Brit what piece of kit on the market he would like to use to do the job he would ALWAYS come up
yank kit. Because it's better.
There is no doubt in my mind, that the pilots that fly the RAF Harrier are the best pilots in the RAF. Believe me, I've trained some of them. Frighteningly good.
Weirdly outstanding in their situational-awareness they can see and do stuff that the rest of us can simply goggle at.
I just wish that the government would provide the best kit.
But they don't.
If you had to do a job - any job, ask a Brit what piece of kit on the market he would like to use to do the job he would ALWAYS come up
yank kit. Because it's better.
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Meanwhile, back at the original question. I believe that the RN bought a total of 52 or so FRS1 and FA2 aircraft. They attained 32 kills down south. (Some sources say 28). Even so, how many other aircraft have a similar record?
As for A-A performance, the FA2 never had a problem dealing with a Fulcrum threat BVR. BV plus AMRAAM versus Slot Back plus 10A? No contest. Particularly as the SHAR could CAP in Block three and climb on commit. I have personal experience of three threat nations so consider myself well informed. WVR was often a disaster, but is in just about every other platform, certainly until the new joint helmet and 9X came along. A Fulcrum with HMS and AA-11 would knock anything over WVR - unless you got some serious angles at the merge. WVR the small size of the harrier is a real plus, compared to F-18 and 15, and 14 before it too went to the scrap pile.
As for aggressing on Red Flag, i can honestly say that a couple of us had an absolute roar behind the 'no-no-we've-got-a-different/exactly-the-same-plan-today-but-no-way-of-dealing-with-leakers-Eagle-Wall".
As for the GR-various Harriers its a pretty good CAS and AI platform, and some nations have an AIM-120 capability to help them along as well.
As for A-A performance, the FA2 never had a problem dealing with a Fulcrum threat BVR. BV plus AMRAAM versus Slot Back plus 10A? No contest. Particularly as the SHAR could CAP in Block three and climb on commit. I have personal experience of three threat nations so consider myself well informed. WVR was often a disaster, but is in just about every other platform, certainly until the new joint helmet and 9X came along. A Fulcrum with HMS and AA-11 would knock anything over WVR - unless you got some serious angles at the merge. WVR the small size of the harrier is a real plus, compared to F-18 and 15, and 14 before it too went to the scrap pile.
As for aggressing on Red Flag, i can honestly say that a couple of us had an absolute roar behind the 'no-no-we've-got-a-different/exactly-the-same-plan-today-but-no-way-of-dealing-with-leakers-Eagle-Wall".
As for the GR-various Harriers its a pretty good CAS and AI platform, and some nations have an AIM-120 capability to help them along as well.
...........
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Sorry my reply #4 wasn't good enough!
Following on from orca you could quote SHAR vs Malaysian Mig 29s - SHAR won BVR everytime but tended to get minced close in. Also against Malaysian Hawk 200 and Australian F-18s SHAR did well in A-A, all in a hot and humid environment which was not conducive to keeping the Blue Vixen serviceable.
Following on from orca you could quote SHAR vs Malaysian Mig 29s - SHAR won BVR everytime but tended to get minced close in. Also against Malaysian Hawk 200 and Australian F-18s SHAR did well in A-A, all in a hot and humid environment which was not conducive to keeping the Blue Vixen serviceable.
Last edited by WhiteOvies; 27th Sep 2006 at 14:06.
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Sorry my reply #4 wasn't good enough!
Following on from orca you could quote SHAR vs Malaysian Mig 29s - SHAR won BVR everytime but tended to get minced close in. Also against Malaysian Hawk 200 and Australian F-18s SHAR did well in A-A, all in a hot and humid environment which was not conducive to keeping the Blue Vixen serviceable.
Following on from orca you could quote SHAR vs Malaysian Mig 29s - SHAR won BVR everytime but tended to get minced close in. Also against Malaysian Hawk 200 and Australian F-18s SHAR did well in A-A, all in a hot and humid environment which was not conducive to keeping the Blue Vixen serviceable.
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Clockwork mouse,
Hats off to you. You did try.
The mentioned major is a light infantryman. His role is to seize and hold terrain in all seasons, weather and terrain. And everyone is there to help him. That is how infantry think. They don’t know the intricacies of planning, weather or how hard it is to see things from the air. They don’t understand air ROE or how hard it is to prevent fratricide from the air through usable but robust control measures. All they want is bombs, on time and on target and as much as they need to suppress, neutralise or destroy the enemy. All other arms and services are there to support him.
He doesn’t understand air warfare, but few of you have demonstrated any understanding of the needs of a tactical ground commander in contact, or ground manoeuvre. If he says he is getting inadequate close air support, my guess is he is getting inadequate CAS. Either too restrictive, not on time, not the right load or simply not enough of it. Perhaps the CAS platform is not creating the effect he is after, when he wants it.
Is he expecting too much – perhaps. Does he understand air power and its intricacies - almost certainly not, but he doesn’t care because CAS is there to provide Close Air SUPPORT (YOU ARE SUPPORTING HIS TACTICAL OBJECTIVE) – not the other way around.
You guys may be the best pilots in the world – but it doesn’t matter in the least. It simply comes down to having enough of the right equipment, in the right place and the will to use it – to support the tactical commander.
Hats off to you. You did try.
The mentioned major is a light infantryman. His role is to seize and hold terrain in all seasons, weather and terrain. And everyone is there to help him. That is how infantry think. They don’t know the intricacies of planning, weather or how hard it is to see things from the air. They don’t understand air ROE or how hard it is to prevent fratricide from the air through usable but robust control measures. All they want is bombs, on time and on target and as much as they need to suppress, neutralise or destroy the enemy. All other arms and services are there to support him.
He doesn’t understand air warfare, but few of you have demonstrated any understanding of the needs of a tactical ground commander in contact, or ground manoeuvre. If he says he is getting inadequate close air support, my guess is he is getting inadequate CAS. Either too restrictive, not on time, not the right load or simply not enough of it. Perhaps the CAS platform is not creating the effect he is after, when he wants it.
Is he expecting too much – perhaps. Does he understand air power and its intricacies - almost certainly not, but he doesn’t care because CAS is there to provide Close Air SUPPORT (YOU ARE SUPPORTING HIS TACTICAL OBJECTIVE) – not the other way around.
You guys may be the best pilots in the world – but it doesn’t matter in the least. It simply comes down to having enough of the right equipment, in the right place and the will to use it – to support the tactical commander.
Suspicion breeds confidence
Its interesting that the UK and ROW Harrier communities have a different opinion about how to eqiup the Harrier. Everyone else says it needs a radar to make it the truly versatile machine it has the potential to be, the RAF says it doesn't. The end result is that we ended up with a gun less, compromised airframe that is OK for CAS, but totally unsuited to carrier ops relying on other assets to defend it. Fatty Ingram said that it would cost £650m to fit Blue Vixen to the GR9. Well assuming a unit cost of maybe £30m for a Harrier that buys a fleet of about 20 Harrier II+.
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However, following the deletion of the GR7's UK gun (Aden 25mm IIRC?), can the GR7/9 airframe take the AV-8B's GAU-12 - which I understand is a 25mm gatling related (however distantly) to the A-10's GAU-8? If it can, how quickly could it be integrated (remember the bl**dy good effort of the techies to integrate Maverick onto GR7 a few years ago after it was supposedly unavailable on GR7s), and if not, why not.
Cheers
S41
Cheers
S41
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The GAU pods should fit straight on the same mounts. From memory the RAF Harrier is beefed up on both sides to take the cannon recoil - the AV-8B isn't
but apart from that it should be the same.
but apart from that it should be the same.
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Semper, Riley
Thanks for this. And though there are differences between AV-8B and GR5/7/9 - cf the AGM-65G2 point earlier - they are presumably sortable. (I understand that the 50lb brains in question last time were some WO/FS + Sengo who were determined to show it Could be done.....
So GAU-12? Get on with it!!!
S41
Thanks for this. And though there are differences between AV-8B and GR5/7/9 - cf the AGM-65G2 point earlier - they are presumably sortable. (I understand that the 50lb brains in question last time were some WO/FS + Sengo who were determined to show it Could be done.....
So GAU-12? Get on with it!!!
S41
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Praising the Harrier: RAeS Aerospace Professional
Report on page 23 of the Oct 06 edition, under the main commentary on "Wings over Europe" is a sub-section "Red Harriers", a highly paraphrased extract from which is:
Among the nations interested in the Harrier was the People's Republic of China. During the 1970s John Farley was asked to give a flight in a 2-seat harrier to the second-in-command of the People's Liberation Army Air Force - a current MiG pilot............However a combination of UK inflation and the hot,high environment from where they would be operating put paid to the idea. As a postscript, after the Falkland's war the same General contacted John to say "If we had realised how good the Harrier was we would have found the money for it somehow!"
Among the nations interested in the Harrier was the People's Republic of China. During the 1970s John Farley was asked to give a flight in a 2-seat harrier to the second-in-command of the People's Liberation Army Air Force - a current MiG pilot............However a combination of UK inflation and the hot,high environment from where they would be operating put paid to the idea. As a postscript, after the Falkland's war the same General contacted John to say "If we had realised how good the Harrier was we would have found the money for it somehow!"