Who was the top scoring WWII Fighter Pilot - Johnie Johnson or Pat Pattle?
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Who was the top scoring WWII Fighter Pilot - Johnie Johnson or Pat Pattle?
Although JJ's scores were confirmed kills, Pat Pattle had many more albeit unconfirmed kills and all before May '41, mostly in the Gladiator but some in the Hurricane. He was a true legend. Does anyone have any more gen?
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I remember reading about Pat Pattle as a teenager, but I think it was one chapter in a fairly typical 'fighter pilots of the RAF' type paperback.
I seem to remember that in the case of Pattle nobody was sure exactly what his score was. Many of the records were either destroyed/lost or not kept properly in the retreat from Greece and other hectic moments.
By the way, before somebody else points it out, you should have had RAF somewhere in your title. I believe Erich Hartmann (not sure if spelling is correct) got about 350 kills in WWII.
352 actually - http://www.acepilots.com/misc_hartmann.html
I seem to remember that in the case of Pattle nobody was sure exactly what his score was. Many of the records were either destroyed/lost or not kept properly in the retreat from Greece and other hectic moments.
By the way, before somebody else points it out, you should have had RAF somewhere in your title. I believe Erich Hartmann (not sure if spelling is correct) got about 350 kills in WWII.
352 actually - http://www.acepilots.com/misc_hartmann.html
Last edited by Biggus; 13th Aug 2006 at 10:13.
Chris Shores and Clive Williams' Aces High, which is the nearest thing there is to a 'bible of RAF 'ace' pilots' credits Pattle with around 50 victories and two shared, while Johnson is given 34 victories and seven shared.
As Biggus says, record keeping was a little lax in the Greek campaign (for obvious reasons...) and most of the paperwork was dumped into Piraeus (IIRC) Harbour during the evacuation. I think it's generally accepted, thanks to piecing together reports from Pattle's colleagues, that Pattle scored more than Johnson, and is a far less controversial issue than who the top-scoring RFC/RAF pilot was in WW1....
As Biggus says, record keeping was a little lax in the Greek campaign (for obvious reasons...) and most of the paperwork was dumped into Piraeus (IIRC) Harbour during the evacuation. I think it's generally accepted, thanks to piecing together reports from Pattle's colleagues, that Pattle scored more than Johnson, and is a far less controversial issue than who the top-scoring RFC/RAF pilot was in WW1....
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Seem to recall that some chap by the name of "Hans-Jochim Marseils" (ok, spelling was never my strong point.)flying 109s was top. The choice of identities of the model I built in the 60s was his or Adolf Galland's. Ginger Lacey was definately top RAF pilot in the Battle of Britain. Rumour has it he was sent to a less than target rich enviroment for the rest of the war to stop him being top RAF "ace".
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Originally Posted by doubledolphins
Ginger Lacey was definately top RAF pilot in the Battle of Britain. Rumour has it he was sent to a less than target rich enviroment for the rest of the war to stop him being top RAF "ace".
Hartmann 352
Barkhorn 301
Rall 275
Kittel 267
Nowotny 258
Galland 104 All on the Western front
Lang.....18 in one day
Barkhorn 301
Rall 275
Kittel 267
Nowotny 258
Galland 104 All on the Western front
Lang.....18 in one day
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wow, I stand corrected!
I think the Lacy buisiness was down to his being a Sgt pilot during the battle and a bit of a "Rough Diamond". He finished the war a Squadron Leader and returned to flying instructing. JEJ retired with Air rank.
I think the Lacy buisiness was down to his being a Sgt pilot during the battle and a bit of a "Rough Diamond". He finished the war a Squadron Leader and returned to flying instructing. JEJ retired with Air rank.
Hans-Joachim Marseille might have been the top scorer if he'd lived long enough. He racked up a high score in North Africa, but was killed with a tally of 158 in September '42. His Bf109 suffered a fault and the cockpit filled with smoke; he bailed out, struck the tailplane and was either killed instantly or knocked unconscious and thus couldn't deploy his parachute.
His score is open to question, though - I forget the precise details, but there is a debate over whether he falsified victories (claim made by a distinguished RAF veteran, I forget which); whether he had victories falsified for him by Goebbels for propaganda purposes (forget the source for that one) or whether some claims stemmed from the usual cause of confusion (aircraft dives away apparently out of control and streaming smoke but actually got home safely, etc, etc).
His score is open to question, though - I forget the precise details, but there is a debate over whether he falsified victories (claim made by a distinguished RAF veteran, I forget which); whether he had victories falsified for him by Goebbels for propaganda purposes (forget the source for that one) or whether some claims stemmed from the usual cause of confusion (aircraft dives away apparently out of control and streaming smoke but actually got home safely, etc, etc).
Lacey appears to have scored 30 confirmed victories and three probables....and was transferred to India in March 1943.
Originally Posted by doubledolphins
Ginger Lacey was definately top RAF pilot in the Battle of Britain.
Eric Lock with a score of 21, was the highest scoring RAF pilot during the 'offical' Battle of Britain period.
James Lacey was second highest with a score of 18.
Originally Posted by walter kennedy
Hans-Joachim Marseille had another distinction I think - he was reputed to have only engaged fighters - anyone know if this was true?
Originally Posted by superserong
Anyone remember how many Sailor Malan got during BoB? Think it was 27...but not sure.
Malan didn't even make the top 10 RAF scorers during the BofB.
Damn good boss though by all accounts, and his contribution to the winning of the Battle was far more than merely scoring a few more than some of the other pilots.
Last edited by GeeRam; 14th Aug 2006 at 12:08.
I recently read an interesting history of the BoB which contained an account of the contrasting RAF and Luftwaffe attitude to scores. In the RAF keeping a personal tally was officially frowned upon and also regarded as "bad form" by sqn colleagues. I guess this accounts for very little publicity such as painting of multple killl markings on aircraft. The whole thing was regarded as a team effort and a kill had to be independently confirmed to receive a credit. Conversely, the Luftwaffe Aces were given huge official backing and the whole wing (geschwader?) was set up so that the likes of Molders, Galland and Wick could add to their personal score. It seems that there was a much less rigourous requirement to confirm claims. The book recounted quite a lot of bitterness from the ordinary pilots that they were just cannon-fodder, often acting as bait to create opportunities for the star pilots. Anyway, they lost.
Originally Posted by Brain Potter
In the RAF keeping a personal tally was officially frowned upon and also regarded as "bad form" by sqn colleagues. I guess this accounts for very little publicity such as painting of multple killl markings on aircraft. The whole thing was regarded as a team effort and a kill had to be independently confirmed to receive a credit.
Originally Posted by Brain Potter
Conversely, the Luftwaffe Aces were given huge official backing and the whole wing (geschwader?) was set up so that the likes of Molders, Galland and Wick could add to their personal score.
However, it wrong to say the whole Geschwaders was set-up for one individual, rather individual squadrons within the Geschwader, which is why you will seen an even split with a 4 or 5 high scoring senior pilots from each Geschwader. There was still a good number of Luftwaffe NCO pilots that scored well during the Battle, such as Werner Machold and Heinz Bar.
Originally Posted by Brain Potter
It seems that there was a much less rigourous requirement to confirm claims.