Who was the top scoring WWII Fighter Pilot - Johnie Johnson or Pat Pattle?

[brakedwell]

I met Ginger Lacey in the early 80's when he visited the flight deck of our Air Europe 737 during a flight from Newcastle or Teeside to the Med. He told us he was CFI at his local flying club. A genuinely nice guy. On the other hand JEJ was a real s***t when he used to fly with me in Aden.

[SASless]

Have you ever met a FJ pilot that was not "competitive"? At least none that are worth a darn. You can bet the BoB pilots were keeping tabs....there may have been some strong class envy about...My Squadron over your Squadron, Spits over Hurri's , officers over Sgt's, Brits over everyone else.

[Brain Potter]

I've found the book I was reading - The Most Dangerous Enemy by Stephen Bungay and here are some quotes.

Ref Luftwaffe:

"At the margin some of the most sucessful gave the impression that they were after their own glory rather than the success of the unit, and the view became widespread that some of them were building their scores at the expense of protecting wingmen, the poor old "Katshmareks". Ulrich Steinhilper [Luftwaffe veteran] reports on such discussions in JG52 which increased in frequency as the battle continued:

The debates nearly always came back to the subject of battle honours and decorations, mostly prompted by NCOs who felt more aggrieved than officers. Why was it they asked, that decorations are in the main handed out to those with the highest scores? Wasn't it clear that it was those who were flying ahead and insisting on strong formation discipline around them who were running up the highest personal scores - almost exactly matched by losses from their own formations - losing one Katschmarek after another for another white stripe on the tail of their aircraft? And who was it who was suffering the most, they would ask. Of course it was the NCOs who generally flew at the rear or on the flanks.

The book explains that RAF honours were input driven ie for courage/service - whether or not militarily effective. The Luftwaffe awards were output driven ie on total score. Aces seeking to have a Knights' Cross plus Oak Leaves, Diamonds around their necks etc were said to be suffering from a "sore throat".

The book also relates how the pressure to score drove some Luftwaffe pilots to dishonesty and tells how one famous German ace returned from combat claiming 3 Spitfires, but his groundcrew discovered that his guns had not been fired. His score went up, but his standing fell as the tale went round. I am sure our fighter pilots were competitive men , but I have not detected in any book that they were competing with each other for high scores. I think Sailor Malan even advocated allowing shot up bombers to make it home - reasoning that their arrival with dead and wounded on board would affect the morale of the other crews. From what I have read the only RAF BoB pilot who seemed to have been using the opportunity to push personal advancement was Douglas Bader.

Anyway I can thoroughly recommend the book - as well as Fighter Boys by Patrick Bishop and for a personal account First Light by Geoffrey Wellum.

[GeeRam]

Originally Posted by Brain Potter

Ulrich Steinhilper [Luftwaffe veteran] reports on such discussions in JG52 which increased in frequency as the battle continued:[INDENT][I]The debates nearly always came back to the subject of battle honours and decorations, mostly prompted by NCOs who felt more aggrieved than officers. Why was it they asked, that decorations are in the main handed out to those with the highest scores? Wasn't it clear that it was those who were flying ahead and insisting on strong formation discipline around them who were running up the highest personal scores - almost exactly matched by losses from their own formations - losing one Katschmarek after another for another white stripe on the tail of their aircraft? And who was it who was suffering the most, they would ask. Of course it was the NCOs who generally flew at the rear or on the flanks.

Not a good example to make a generalisation about the Jagdflieger during the Battle of Britain as JG52 was the least successful unit with the shortest duration in action before being withdrawn the earliest. Steinhilper wasn't alone in his views.
In actual fact, JG52 was the only Geschwader NOT to have a pilot win the Knights Cross during the Battle of Britain period......

Originally Posted by Brain Potter

The book also relates how the pressure to score drove some Luftwaffe pilots to dishonesty and tells how one famous German ace returned from combat claiming 3 Spitfires, but his groundcrew discovered that his guns had not been fired. His score went up, but his standing fell as the tale went round. I am sure our fighter pilots were competitive men , but I have not detected in any book that they were competing with each other for high scores.

Pierre Clostermann is one I can immediately think off

Originally Posted by Brain Potter

From what I have read the only RAF BoB pilot who seemed to have been using the opportunity to push personal advancement was Douglas Bader.

Yup.
One of the reasons, Malan's standing is that much higher, along with Crossley, Lane, Kent, Townsend, Tuck, McKellar, Finlay etc.

Originally Posted by Brain Potter

The Luftwaffe awards were output driven ie on total score. Aces seeking to have a Knights' Cross plus Oak Leaves, Diamonds around their necks etc were said to be suffering from a "sore throat".

Not strictly true, if that was the case, how would the Bomber pilots and Stuka pilots etc be awarded KC's, or even Fallshrimjager..?
Fighter pilots generally were awarded the KC's dependent on score, but not exclusively. It was just their way of doing things. There were however, plenty of exceptions.
The only award of the Reich's highest award, the Knight's Cross with Golden Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds was awarded to Stuka pilot Hans-Ulrich Rudel.

[Brain Potter]

Clearly this Katschmarek has been soundly defeated by an Experten on the topic.

I was just recounting an impression picked up, rightly or wrongly, by some recent holiday reading. I thought Bungay's book was excellent and casts new light on the story I thought I knew. I came away with the impression that Bader and Leigh-Mallory were appalling self-serving opportunists (they might have done well today) and that the real winner and hero of the battle was Keith Park. He deserves more credit than he got - a statue/memorial in the UK perhaps?

[air pig]

Luftwaffe 'aces' had far greater chance of a high kill tally as they served continously in not having a 'tour' to serve, attacks against at least initially against air forces, who were technically inferior. This last point is in equipment, control and detection of enemy aircraft. Some of the Luftwaffe aces carried over scores from the Spanish Civil War. Numerous fighter aces also derived the vast majority of their kills at night, against the RAF bomber offensive, Major H-W Schnaufer is one such pilot with 121 kills.

Continuous service and the way Luftwaffe squadrons where set up and controlled allowed opportunity to the best, at least until they were shot down. Adolf Galland started the war a squadron commander and ended the war as a squadron commander, having achieved high rank. At the end he flew Me 262s in command of JV 44, having flown the aircraft in 1942 at he behest of Prof Willi Messerschmidt.

Gerhard Barkhorn, served in the reformed Luftwaffe and retired a general, having been on the P 1127 trials squadron at West Rayham, and is rumoured to have ejected from one.

[Archimedes]

IIRC, Barkhorn didn't eject, but cut the throttle early while making a vertical landing, and the undercarriage wasn't quite tough enough to take the impact that resulted. He was very embarrassed, and muttered something about this being the 302nd Allied aircraft he'd destroyed...

[GeeRam]

Originally Posted by Brain Potter

and that the real winner and hero of the battle was Keith Park. He deserves more credit than he got

How true, Park was treated quite badly afterwards, although many would argue that Dowding was as much the architect of the victory as any, with the help of a great slice of good luck.

[BillHicksRules]

Dear all,

Who was the highest scoring non-German ace?

Cheers

BHR

[GeeRam]

Originally Posted by BillHicksRules

Dear all,
Who was the highest scoring non-German ace?
Cheers
BHR

Pretty sure it's Eino Ilmari Juutilainen of the Finnish AF with a score of 94.

[Archimedes]

I think you're right. The Japanese leading ace, Hiroyoshi Nishizawa is credited by some sources with possibly scoring over 100, but most put his tally somewhere in the 80s. The Japanese appear to have been very lax in keeping records of who shot down what and when, so a lot would seem to be guesswork for them.

[air pig]

AVM Park with Wing Commander Woodall ( Station Commander RAF Duxford and sector controller) at the time of the Battle of Britain if I remeber correctly directed the air defence of Malta in 1941 and 42. Very few air commanders have directed a succesful air defence against a sophisicated enemy and have been successful. ACM Dowding was treated terribly following the Battle of Britain by the Air Staff establishment. This I feel due to the fact that he spoke his mind over the defence of France in 1940 in not allowing any more aircarft to be sent over the channel.

To get back to the original thread subject Johnnie Johnson was the top scoring RAF ace according to most records.

My thanks to Archiemedies, I did think General Barkhorn stepped over the side with a little help from Martin baker, rather than putting the P 1127 on the ground and to coin a phrase 'run away bravely'

One of the few aces to have flown in three wars and I believe have kills in each was Robin Olds, retired general USAF.

[henry crun]

Johnny Kent was not shy about self promotion.

When he was staish at Tangmere, the station flight Meteor 8 had JAK in large black letters on each side of the fuselage.

In the 1950's there were quite a lot of books about the BofB being published.
He insisted on having first loan of those bought for the mess libary, and they would be returned with his amendment notes in the margins.

[SASless]

We had a "Vietnamese" Ace in one of my US Army helicopter units.....seems he had written off six OH-6A's without help from the Vietnamese thus we felt he should have qualified for that status.

[walter kennedy]

GeeRam
<< The only award of the Reich's highest award, the Knight's Cross with Golden Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds was awarded to Stuka pilot Hans-Ulrich Rudel.>>
I knew a Hungarian pilot, George (lived in Perth, passed away recently) who was a Sqn Ldr (equivalent) under Rudel at one stage. This should give an idea of what these guys went through to get top honours – George had a tally of 5 Soviet tanks – he told me Rudel had taken out several hundred – apparently he approached them very, very closely – “right on top of them” as George put it. I think they were using Stukas with large (40mm?) cannon fitted (he described the shaking when firing very colourfully) – I don’t think they carried many rounds.
.
On both sides there were many very brave men.

[Archimedes]

Walter - Rudel got 519 tanks, a Soviet ship (or perhaps two) over 700 trucks and is alleged to have scored 9 air-air victories by one source I've seen, (although in a Ju-87, this seems a tad unlikely...They were probably scored when he dabbled with flying the Fw190, I guess). He was also shot down 32 times.

[Dundiggin']

How Much of a s***t was JEJ?

Originally Posted by brakedwell

On the other hand JEJ was a real s***t when he used to fly with me in Aden.

Hi Brakedwell,
What did you used to fly in Aden? I was there but not flying and I heard that JEJ had so abused his post (AOC?) that he was sacked. Something about flying garden plants in from E Africa for his garden in Aden and Andovers to fly home in to UK.
Please tell us more.......

The whole point of this web was to show that JEJ was not the top RAF ace but Pat Pattle was......

[FlightDetent]

Another nice read

http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/frantis/frantis.htm

[GeeRam]

Originally Posted by Dundiggin'

The whole point of this web was to show that JEJ was not the top RAF ace but Pat Pattle was......

Agreed.
The trouble is many of the immediate post-war myths and erroneous information becomes difficult to eradicate as it’s still out there.
Pat Pattle is without question the RAF’s top scoring ‘ace’ of WW2, and while his exact final tally is subject to question to within 2 or 3, it’s clearly more than JEJ.
JEJ was the leading scoring British RAF pilot, and also the top scoring Allied pilot in the North West European theatre of ops.

Originally Posted by walter kennedy

I knew a Hungarian pilot, George (lived in Perth, passed away recently) who was a Sqn Ldr (equivalent) under Rudel at one stage. This should give an idea of what these guys went through to get top honours – George had a tally of 5 Soviet tanks – he told me Rudel had taken out several hundred – apparently he approached them very, very closely – “right on top of them” as George put it. I think they were using Stukas with large (40mm?) cannon fitted (he described the shaking when firing very colourfully) – I don’t think they carried many rounds..
On both sides there were many very brave men.

I think the most astonishing Rudel statistic is the fact that he flew just over 2,500 missions, which is quite astonishing in a high risk GA environment. And he returned to ops even after having to have a lower leg amputated below the knee after being shot down in Feb 45. And after the war he was an accomplished skier and mountaineer. It’s alleged (don’t know if it’s true) that his advise was sort out during the development of the A-10. Of course, his continued post war Nazi sympathies taint somewhat his undoubted military accomplishments.

Originally Posted by henry crun

Johnny Kent was not shy about self promotion.
When he was staish at Tangmere, the station flight Meteor 8 had JAK in large black letters on each side of the fuselage.

Interesting, I’ve not come across many anecdotes about Kent’s post war service.

Originally Posted by air pig

One of the few aces to have flown in three wars and I believe have kills in each was Robin Olds, retired general USAF.

3 wars…?
Olds flew in WW2 and scored 12 or 13 victories IIRC, and later flew the F-4 in Vietnam scoring a further 4 victories, just missing out achieving ‘ace’ status in 2 separate conflicts.
Olds missed out on Korea, as he was on exchange with the RAF at the time as boss of 1 Sqn at Tangmere.

[chiglet]

Ginger Lacey was my pay Officer at RAF Patrington in the late '60s. He was a Flt Lt, but retired as a Sqn Ldr. Unfortunately, I was on leave when he retired. I believe that the "Fly Past" was something to behold
watp,iktch