Why do people leave the RAF early?
I left in 1992 (Sqn Ldr engineer) after 16 years, and have never once regretted it.
My main reasons were that there was a complete lack of career management, and that complete plonkers got promoted whilst people I respected were told that there was no career for them. By products of leaving were continuity of education for my children and continuity in a good job for my wife.
Looking at the forum, and realising that, had I stayed to 55, I would now be counting down my a "days to do" on a wall chart, I am even more glad that I grasped the nettle.
(Actually I have one regret - I left at the time of redundancies and, had I not taken my option, I may have got MORE money by getting a redundancy packege, but I wasn't going to take the risk!)
My main reasons were that there was a complete lack of career management, and that complete plonkers got promoted whilst people I respected were told that there was no career for them. By products of leaving were continuity of education for my children and continuity in a good job for my wife.
Looking at the forum, and realising that, had I stayed to 55, I would now be counting down my a "days to do" on a wall chart, I am even more glad that I grasped the nettle.
(Actually I have one regret - I left at the time of redundancies and, had I not taken my option, I may have got MORE money by getting a redundancy packege, but I wasn't going to take the risk!)
Originally Posted by JessTheDog
I left on PVR for three reasons:
1. It was clear that the RAF life was becoming incompatible with family life. It is unrealistic (and extarordinarily bad management) to expect anyone to seriously put their career before their family, except temporarily (exercises etc) or in times of national crisis or war.
1. It was clear that the RAF life was becoming incompatible with family life. It is unrealistic (and extarordinarily bad management) to expect anyone to seriously put their career before their family, except temporarily (exercises etc) or in times of national crisis or war.
Last edited by snapper41; 25th Jul 2006 at 12:44.
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Hi all,
A hot topic it seems and just thought I'd put my tuppence worth in as well.
Someone asked why people leaving don't just get on with it and stop moaning. I think the reason is that (for myself anyway) it is a little sad to be leaving and although we have made the decision to leave, and yes, for me personally the grass is massively greener on the other side, because of the attachment we feel for the RAF/Services it is really sad to see it going the way it is. There is no way to have an adult conversation about it with people who have enough power to listen and perhaps change things so it is probably out of frustration that you end up venting feelings/moans/frustrations in the hope that someone may actually read and action some common themes (yes, I know, wishful thinking).
A comment about pay earlier in the thread had me chuckling as well. The "huge pay" we receive for the job was how it was put. I genuinely don't think it is pay that is the problem, it is quality of life, however, looking at pay briefly. In the company that I am about to join someone doing my flying job in my position earns over £120,000 per year, so the "huge pay" comment seems slightly absurd. Obviously I'm not able to jump straight into a similar position with the company that I am in the RAF, but, it is comforting to know that a senior FO earns over £90,000 before allowances!
This next one is going to be inflamitory, but what the hell, I'll give it a go anyway. This is definitely not true of all peeps who stay past there exit point/fail to pvr when the market is so good outside but there is a definite pattern. It is without a shadow of a doubt the "easy" option to stay put and cruise/take the pension. No work required, no uncertainty, job for life etc. It is the difficult option to make the leap, you have to put considerable effort into the process and live with uncertaincy for a while, obviously the rewards are also large when the transition has been made. Looking around the bazars at people who are leaving would indicate that they are the people who are talented pilots with the spark and "nounce" to change things in their life. We are losing GOOD people and some would say retaining the not so good element. Very big generalisation I know, and not true in all respects but contains more than a grain of truth if we are all honest about it.
Well that's all for now, fully expecting some harsh comments back from this post!
A hot topic it seems and just thought I'd put my tuppence worth in as well.
Someone asked why people leaving don't just get on with it and stop moaning. I think the reason is that (for myself anyway) it is a little sad to be leaving and although we have made the decision to leave, and yes, for me personally the grass is massively greener on the other side, because of the attachment we feel for the RAF/Services it is really sad to see it going the way it is. There is no way to have an adult conversation about it with people who have enough power to listen and perhaps change things so it is probably out of frustration that you end up venting feelings/moans/frustrations in the hope that someone may actually read and action some common themes (yes, I know, wishful thinking).
A comment about pay earlier in the thread had me chuckling as well. The "huge pay" we receive for the job was how it was put. I genuinely don't think it is pay that is the problem, it is quality of life, however, looking at pay briefly. In the company that I am about to join someone doing my flying job in my position earns over £120,000 per year, so the "huge pay" comment seems slightly absurd. Obviously I'm not able to jump straight into a similar position with the company that I am in the RAF, but, it is comforting to know that a senior FO earns over £90,000 before allowances!
This next one is going to be inflamitory, but what the hell, I'll give it a go anyway. This is definitely not true of all peeps who stay past there exit point/fail to pvr when the market is so good outside but there is a definite pattern. It is without a shadow of a doubt the "easy" option to stay put and cruise/take the pension. No work required, no uncertainty, job for life etc. It is the difficult option to make the leap, you have to put considerable effort into the process and live with uncertaincy for a while, obviously the rewards are also large when the transition has been made. Looking around the bazars at people who are leaving would indicate that they are the people who are talented pilots with the spark and "nounce" to change things in their life. We are losing GOOD people and some would say retaining the not so good element. Very big generalisation I know, and not true in all respects but contains more than a grain of truth if we are all honest about it.
Well that's all for now, fully expecting some harsh comments back from this post!
Snapper
What you need to do is to be struck down with a mystery allergy that makes you non-deployable to places hot, dusty and sandy (as well as the FI) which somehow manages to miraculously cure itself (temporarily!) when a Flag, sqn exchange (if they still exist!) or some other good (or as good as they get these days) deal appears. Also needs to cure itself when promotion boards sit but reappear when arduous trg courses need to be undertaken.
Of course it would never happen at a secret (and only?) flying base in Norfolk.....
What you need to do is to be struck down with a mystery allergy that makes you non-deployable to places hot, dusty and sandy (as well as the FI) which somehow manages to miraculously cure itself (temporarily!) when a Flag, sqn exchange (if they still exist!) or some other good (or as good as they get these days) deal appears. Also needs to cure itself when promotion boards sit but reappear when arduous trg courses need to be undertaken.
Of course it would never happen at a secret (and only?) flying base in Norfolk.....
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What i don't understand is the concept of 'leaving early' when you've got to a pension point. Surely this is 'leaving on time'. I have had many conversations with people trying to decide why there is an exodus at 38/ 16years - the answer is simple - people have had a challenging career, their circumstances have changed, they could do with a change, and guess what - the military is now going to pay them a not insignificant amount forever, so long as they leave!
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I've been observing all this as an outsider now for almost a year but I've got a couple of doubts:
How can you complain beeing deployed beeing a military pilot, i guess it comes with a job especially in a country like the UK with a vast influence and interest overseas and his foreign affair politics.
As pilots we get a chance at another job because we have been in the air force, never forget that!
Yes It's true we all love the lifestyle, the camraderie, the flying and so on but we are adults, allegedly beeing pilots, so let's just leave like real gentlemen just remembering the good old times. We are doing no good to anybody moaning and reminding people and ourselves what's wrong.
I don't know if i'll leave my air force when the time will come but that's how I would like to shaking hands and parting ways.
Cheers
How can you complain beeing deployed beeing a military pilot, i guess it comes with a job especially in a country like the UK with a vast influence and interest overseas and his foreign affair politics.
As pilots we get a chance at another job because we have been in the air force, never forget that!
Yes It's true we all love the lifestyle, the camraderie, the flying and so on but we are adults, allegedly beeing pilots, so let's just leave like real gentlemen just remembering the good old times. We are doing no good to anybody moaning and reminding people and ourselves what's wrong.
I don't know if i'll leave my air force when the time will come but that's how I would like to shaking hands and parting ways.
Cheers
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A lot of very valid observations emerging here – how I hope that some notice is taken of them.
Bufe – the RAF is, ‘person for person’, probably the most capable, achieving, (dare I say ‘agile’ – probably not!) Air Force in the world. This is only because of the deep personal commitment of its personnel; we are immensely proud to have earned a place in such an organisation, alongside such extremely capable colleagues, and proud of what we can achieve. It should therefore be no surprise that we find it immensely frustrating to watch, powerless, as so much of what we believe in is eroded.
For some time the operational end of the Service has held it together, whatever the odds, while the support has been stripped away around us – I fear that we are nearing breaking point. ‘Savings measures’ mean ‘let the front-line to cope’ while expecting the same output. Loyalty is expected but if we abandon the families of our personnel, can we really expect to come out on top of that particular conflict of interests? Dental and medical support is fragile enough if you are serving, and a distant memory for families despite the remote location of our MOBs. Quarters are in short supply (despite our diminished strength?) and often in poor condition while the maintenance contracts are a model of appalling service – and yet the rates go up to bring them into line with the civilian sector. In the civilian sector, companies pay handsomely to move their valued personnel. In the RAF it costs you money each time you move somewhere you may not particularly want to go.
I recently sat through several PMA lectures, every one of which had powerpoint bullet points stating the need to increase stability and retention – not one of the presentations offered anything of substance to achieve this laudable goal. If only our problems were powerpoint deep.
I will also join ‘itsonlyme’ in being contentious – it’s a 2-tier RAF: those that work their socks off and those that do not. We know where the division lies and yet PMA insist on this ‘best man for the job’ policy which is code for ‘we don’t have the right people so we will pretend their specialist skills aren’t really necessary’ = more risk at the front line.
For the record, I elected to remain beyond my 38 point, in part at least because I want to make a difference. Increasingly though, I wonder if it is not selfish for me to impose this lifestyle upon my young family – that is where my next decision will be made.
Bufe – the RAF is, ‘person for person’, probably the most capable, achieving, (dare I say ‘agile’ – probably not!) Air Force in the world. This is only because of the deep personal commitment of its personnel; we are immensely proud to have earned a place in such an organisation, alongside such extremely capable colleagues, and proud of what we can achieve. It should therefore be no surprise that we find it immensely frustrating to watch, powerless, as so much of what we believe in is eroded.
For some time the operational end of the Service has held it together, whatever the odds, while the support has been stripped away around us – I fear that we are nearing breaking point. ‘Savings measures’ mean ‘let the front-line to cope’ while expecting the same output. Loyalty is expected but if we abandon the families of our personnel, can we really expect to come out on top of that particular conflict of interests? Dental and medical support is fragile enough if you are serving, and a distant memory for families despite the remote location of our MOBs. Quarters are in short supply (despite our diminished strength?) and often in poor condition while the maintenance contracts are a model of appalling service – and yet the rates go up to bring them into line with the civilian sector. In the civilian sector, companies pay handsomely to move their valued personnel. In the RAF it costs you money each time you move somewhere you may not particularly want to go.
I recently sat through several PMA lectures, every one of which had powerpoint bullet points stating the need to increase stability and retention – not one of the presentations offered anything of substance to achieve this laudable goal. If only our problems were powerpoint deep.
I will also join ‘itsonlyme’ in being contentious – it’s a 2-tier RAF: those that work their socks off and those that do not. We know where the division lies and yet PMA insist on this ‘best man for the job’ policy which is code for ‘we don’t have the right people so we will pretend their specialist skills aren’t really necessary’ = more risk at the front line.
For the record, I elected to remain beyond my 38 point, in part at least because I want to make a difference. Increasingly though, I wonder if it is not selfish for me to impose this lifestyle upon my young family – that is where my next decision will be made.
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Originally Posted by jayteeto
How about doing that via the leaving questionairre and during your interview with the Commodore?
What interview?? The one where the clerk asks you for your ID back?
What interview?? The one where the clerk asks you for your ID back?
In the RN if you put in your letter you are invited to complete a questionairre and then invited over to have a coffee with the Commodore. Its a very informal chat (He doesn't want you to or try to change your mind) but he just wants to get a feeling on the reasons you have decided to leave.
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Originally Posted by orca
What i don't understand is the concept of 'leaving early' when you've got to a pension point. Surely this is 'leaving on time'. I have had many conversations with people trying to decide why there is an exodus at 38/ 16years - the answer is simple - people have had a challenging career, their circumstances have changed, they could do with a change, and guess what - the military is now going to pay them a not insignificant amount forever, so long as they leave!
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I think if you were to line up 50 people who have left each one would have a different primary reason for leaving. After all it is a completely personal decision to leave and a very hard one to take.
itsonlyme said
How true that is and in my case was responsible for me having a miserable last two years when I had already made my mind up to go. Once you actually get out here the grass really is greener as I have said many times before. You get all your freedom back and it isn't until you get out that you realise just how repressive being in the military is. That said you forget all the bad stuff very quickly, I remember only the marvellous times and only miss only good people I worked with.
Having watched from the sidelines over the last three years I realise now, that without a doubt I got out at exactly the right time.
itsonlyme said
It is without a shadow of a doubt the "easy" option to stay put and cruise/take the pension. No work required, no uncertainty, job for life etc. It is the difficult option to make the leap,
Having watched from the sidelines over the last three years I realise now, that without a doubt I got out at exactly the right time.
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I believe most people join the military as a vocation; it isn't a job you 'accidentally' find yourself in. It is the lifestyle and esprit de corps that attract, not to get rich.
This was reflected in the wages paid (lower than that paid to someone of equal ability, drive and willingness to take responsibility) in civi street and the benefits available to counter the balance (low rent, cheap messing, free gym etc). As a volunteer, I was more than happy to accept these ‘terms and conditions’.
However, I like a lot of people feel that I am being treated more and more like an employee who can expect limited (if any) loyalty from the firm. JPA, Pay as You Dine and increasing MQ rents will continue to erode our wage and quality of life. When I tried to discuss the realities of the service with a senior officer in 'Human Resources', he replied to my criticism with the line:
"Well, you have to remember that we have to think 'What would a civilian company do in that situation?'"
Struggle to recruit and retain possibly…
This was reflected in the wages paid (lower than that paid to someone of equal ability, drive and willingness to take responsibility) in civi street and the benefits available to counter the balance (low rent, cheap messing, free gym etc). As a volunteer, I was more than happy to accept these ‘terms and conditions’.
However, I like a lot of people feel that I am being treated more and more like an employee who can expect limited (if any) loyalty from the firm. JPA, Pay as You Dine and increasing MQ rents will continue to erode our wage and quality of life. When I tried to discuss the realities of the service with a senior officer in 'Human Resources', he replied to my criticism with the line:
"Well, you have to remember that we have to think 'What would a civilian company do in that situation?'"
Struggle to recruit and retain possibly…
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I am going to PVR in the next 4-6 months.
When I joined up (at 16), being in the RAF was all I ever wanted to do. I wanted to be involved with aircraft, serve my country, travel the world and have a laugh with some good mates. I have done all of these, and more !
Some years later, my whole outlook has changed, I do not feel that I am serving 'MY' country. The aircraft I wanted to be employed on are falling apart. The opportunity for Travel has diminished to the point that you can only really travel to Hot, Sandy Sh*tholes, or be almost as far South as it is possible.
Yes, my situation has changed, Im now a married man with a family, and they are the most important thing in the world to me. The RAF does not look after its people well enough to make me want to stay in. The personnel who are so called 'Leaders' or 'Managers' have lost touch with reality. Do they really think all is well with the morale of the RAF? If not, why are they not doing something about it????
When I joined up (at 16), being in the RAF was all I ever wanted to do. I wanted to be involved with aircraft, serve my country, travel the world and have a laugh with some good mates. I have done all of these, and more !
Some years later, my whole outlook has changed, I do not feel that I am serving 'MY' country. The aircraft I wanted to be employed on are falling apart. The opportunity for Travel has diminished to the point that you can only really travel to Hot, Sandy Sh*tholes, or be almost as far South as it is possible.
Yes, my situation has changed, Im now a married man with a family, and they are the most important thing in the world to me. The RAF does not look after its people well enough to make me want to stay in. The personnel who are so called 'Leaders' or 'Managers' have lost touch with reality. Do they really think all is well with the morale of the RAF? If not, why are they not doing something about it????
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Man, this is a depressing thread. I was enjoying my career up to this point but now I think I’ll PVR.
Seriously though, I did submit a PVR a few years back due to lack of opportunities and challenges. I had decided to join a civilian company paying considerably more than I was earning in the RAF. Then a few months before my exit date (was just about to start resettlement) PMA rang to let me know about a new position that had become available. It was made clear that this was not being offered as an incentive to keep me in, but just some information that I should know about.
I rescinded my PVR and took the new post. Haven’t looked back since, next stop pension.
Just lucky I guess.
Seriously though, I did submit a PVR a few years back due to lack of opportunities and challenges. I had decided to join a civilian company paying considerably more than I was earning in the RAF. Then a few months before my exit date (was just about to start resettlement) PMA rang to let me know about a new position that had become available. It was made clear that this was not being offered as an incentive to keep me in, but just some information that I should know about.
I rescinded my PVR and took the new post. Haven’t looked back since, next stop pension.
Just lucky I guess.
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Ive been in for 5 years, 4 of those front line multi. I would leave tomorrow if I thought that I would be allowed to. As it stands ive another 2 1/2 years to do to fullfill my return of service. I am undervalued, taken advantage of and not respected. Why would I stay?
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Why leave? Because I value me far more than my political masters value me!
I don't mind going to dangerous places every now and again, it's part of the job, I knew that when I signed the dotted line and it can be quite good fun in an odd sort of way. But going used to be interspersed with training and exercises (remember them?). I take the Queen's shilling and when needed put myself in harms way - but it doesn't take long to figure out that living in harms way quite as often as some of us are is just giving the bad guys too big a target, especially with the (lack of) kit we have.
To make it simple to the civvies that keep popping in here and telling us we should expect to get shot it 'cos we're in the military - well yes we should. And we do. But you'd have to be mad to hang around somewhere where they're doing it regularly and any fun stuff has been policed to death!
I don't mind going to dangerous places every now and again, it's part of the job, I knew that when I signed the dotted line and it can be quite good fun in an odd sort of way. But going used to be interspersed with training and exercises (remember them?). I take the Queen's shilling and when needed put myself in harms way - but it doesn't take long to figure out that living in harms way quite as often as some of us are is just giving the bad guys too big a target, especially with the (lack of) kit we have.
To make it simple to the civvies that keep popping in here and telling us we should expect to get shot it 'cos we're in the military - well yes we should. And we do. But you'd have to be mad to hang around somewhere where they're doing it regularly and any fun stuff has been policed to death!
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Dear Capt Kirk,
I agree with you, probably I don't know much about the support aspects you mention but as far as agile, achieving, flexible I learned to admire the RAF.
Still don't understand pilots having been in the squadron just a few years already complaining and with their life already planned to leave, funny thing I guess that's partly happening in my Air Force as well.
There must be more.
Do you think invading......i don't know Lybia staging out of Ibiza or Sardinia would help?
Cheers
Bufe
I agree with you, probably I don't know much about the support aspects you mention but as far as agile, achieving, flexible I learned to admire the RAF.
Still don't understand pilots having been in the squadron just a few years already complaining and with their life already planned to leave, funny thing I guess that's partly happening in my Air Force as well.
There must be more.
Do you think invading......i don't know Lybia staging out of Ibiza or Sardinia would help?
Cheers
Bufe
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Originally Posted by juliet
Ive been in for 5 years, 4 of those front line multi. I would leave tomorrow if I thought that I would be allowed to. As it stands ive another 2 1/2 years to do to fullfill my return of service. I am undervalued, taken advantage of and not respected. Why would I stay?
We had a brief from Fleet a couple of months ago where they stated that "In working practice there is no such thing as Return of Service"... It is appled (as we all know) but it is probably illegal. They stated 2 cases wgere people tried to leave whilst still shackled to a Return of Service...the 2 individuals paid about £50 a piece for strongly worded letters from solicitors and the Navy backed away.... Im sure the RAF will be the same. They can do without a long protracted court case (which they will lose) and so if you put your letter in accompanied with a solicitors letter Im sure you will find the door being held open wide.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
To flesh what Capt Kirk said about support services.
1 Gp was so leaned that there was open sky between a flt lt SO3 and the 2*. The sqn ldr was posted. The wg cdr PVRd and was gapped. The gp capt came late and was then moved. The AC was detached. The other staffs were similarly stretched so there was no possibility of reach across.
One scheme to establish 'task forces' with a leader and helped by 'best man for the job' regardless of rank (flt lt-wg cdr
) did not get off the ground.
Bring back the old 1 Gp where Ops 1 could cover Ops 2 etc with proper leave rotation across the HQ and no OOA.
While people might hate RAFP and staff weenies in equal measure you do need enough staff to take some of the weight out of the cockpit.
1 Gp was so leaned that there was open sky between a flt lt SO3 and the 2*. The sqn ldr was posted. The wg cdr PVRd and was gapped. The gp capt came late and was then moved. The AC was detached. The other staffs were similarly stretched so there was no possibility of reach across.
One scheme to establish 'task forces' with a leader and helped by 'best man for the job' regardless of rank (flt lt-wg cdr
) did not get off the ground.Bring back the old 1 Gp where Ops 1 could cover Ops 2 etc with proper leave rotation across the HQ and no OOA.
While people might hate RAFP and staff weenies in equal measure you do need enough staff to take some of the weight out of the cockpit.