Engineer Officer
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Cheers Reach for sticking up for me. Yes I have made a few mistakes and many people have told me about them. And I have said sorry for them, but to keep going on about it and instead of answering the question I asked at the start is kind of pointless. So pointless and annoying infact that I might stop posting my questions and answers on here! You have never met me in person so do not try and judge me from a few stupid posts.
that short outburst was not aimed at all of you as many of you have been very helpfull.
that short outburst was not aimed at all of you as many of you have been very helpfull.
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Originally Posted by dhurst
Cheers Reach for sticking up for me. Yes I have made a few mistakes and many people have told me about them. And I have said sorry for them, but to keep going on about it and instead of answering the question I asked at the start is kind of pointless. So pointless and annoying infact that I might stop posting my questions and answers on here! You have never met me in person so do not try and judge me from a few stupid posts.
that short outburst was not aimed at all of you as many of you have been very helpfull.
that short outburst was not aimed at all of you as many of you have been very helpfull.
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Severance
The current EngO training course (Engineer Specialist Training) is perfectly adequate, but that's the problem, its adequate, that's all even though it is closely validated and amended when feasible; the various powers that be have decided, quite rightly, that the course needs to change in order to train our future JEngOs to the training performance standard required in the 21st Century RAF. So, from 31 July 2006 there will be much more emphasis on work down the hangar with the Jags (even CE folks will continue to do some of this) and more emphasis than now on deployed ops training with better scenarios for both the CE and AS students. I won't waffle further so as to avoid boring all and sundry. I hope dhurst isn't put off, I wouldn't be if I was starting out now (but I'm rapidly approaching the other end of the pipe, so to speak!) go for it!
The current EngO training course (Engineer Specialist Training) is perfectly adequate, but that's the problem, its adequate, that's all even though it is closely validated and amended when feasible; the various powers that be have decided, quite rightly, that the course needs to change in order to train our future JEngOs to the training performance standard required in the 21st Century RAF. So, from 31 July 2006 there will be much more emphasis on work down the hangar with the Jags (even CE folks will continue to do some of this) and more emphasis than now on deployed ops training with better scenarios for both the CE and AS students. I won't waffle further so as to avoid boring all and sundry. I hope dhurst isn't put off, I wouldn't be if I was starting out now (but I'm rapidly approaching the other end of the pipe, so to speak!) go for it!
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Hey Toddington Ted the new way of training does not put me off. In fact I am looking forward to it aslong as my Officer selection all goes to plan.
"from 31 July 2006 there will be much more emphasis on work down the hangar with the Jags (even CE folks will continue to do some of this)"
As I do not know to much of the old way of training are you saying that there will be more practical and out in the field learning? as if there is I really do find that this way of learning is very effective.
"from 31 July 2006 there will be much more emphasis on work down the hangar with the Jags (even CE folks will continue to do some of this)"
As I do not know to much of the old way of training are you saying that there will be more practical and out in the field learning? as if there is I really do find that this way of learning is very effective.
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Excuse the thread creep but:
Didn't they just close down DARA St. Athan and return the maintenance to the RAF Stations? Re-creating the "big base" concept with its heavy maintenance production lines...
So, the JENGOs get to play in the sand pit while the old guys mess around back at base. Just like the old days, eh?
to meet the needs of the Junior Engineer Officer in an expeditionary Air Force rather than the traditional "big base" concept.
So, the JENGOs get to play in the sand pit while the old guys mess around back at base. Just like the old days, eh?
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Originally Posted by Reach
"...and seem to enjoy kicking guys while they're on the floor."
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Originally Posted by dhurst
Cheers Reach for sticking up for me. Yes I have made a few mistakes and many people have told me about them. And I have said sorry for them, but to keep going on about it and instead of answering the question I asked at the start is kind of pointless. So pointless and annoying infact that I might stop posting my questions and answers on here! You have never met me in person so do not try and judge me from a few stupid posts.
that short outburst was not aimed at all of you as many of you have been very helpfull.
that short outburst was not aimed at all of you as many of you have been very helpfull.
There are a lot of very experienced and helpful people on this site, so don't throw in the towl and do yourself an injustice by not asking relevant questions - I'm sure I'll be asking some pearlers in the months to come
As I have indicated previously - go visit some bases and talk to the people who will show a genuine interest in your endeavours.
It's not all doom and gloom - the military is a great career and I am sure the RAF is second to none. Don't be disillusioned
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DHurst
If, after Cranwell and maybe a first tour, you end up heading to the JFH you will receive more training on 20(R) on the art of being a JEngO before being let loose on your own. As a grad you'll get 4 months shadowing the JEngOs, learning the Harrier specific policy, technical stuff, management and other vital tools of the JEngO trade. At each stage you have to sit and pass a knowledge board where you will be asked by SEngO 20(R) or other senior engineers questions on your knowledge. Finally the SEngO will recommend you as fit to take the Certificate of Competence board which is chaired by OC Eng/Fwd (Wg Cdr) and two Sqn Ldr/Lt Cdr engineers, one of whom is normally the SEngO of the Sqn you are due to go to. If you pass this grilling you get your reds and greens and are allowed to do the job for real.
Should sound familiar to RN AEOs. Caused a bit of a fuss when introduced to the RAF but it gives the JEngO a fighting chance when he gets onto the Sqn for real. It allows him to learn how it should be done and be introduced into how Lineys think(
) before he gets swamped with the additional Flt Cmdr stuff that he should already know from his first tour.
However, as people have already said you are always learning. Learning to take aircrew banter is all part of the fun!
However, if you want to stay in the CE side of things I imagine there are many different ways that the RAF will teach you things once you leave Cranwell.
If, after Cranwell and maybe a first tour, you end up heading to the JFH you will receive more training on 20(R) on the art of being a JEngO before being let loose on your own. As a grad you'll get 4 months shadowing the JEngOs, learning the Harrier specific policy, technical stuff, management and other vital tools of the JEngO trade. At each stage you have to sit and pass a knowledge board where you will be asked by SEngO 20(R) or other senior engineers questions on your knowledge. Finally the SEngO will recommend you as fit to take the Certificate of Competence board which is chaired by OC Eng/Fwd (Wg Cdr) and two Sqn Ldr/Lt Cdr engineers, one of whom is normally the SEngO of the Sqn you are due to go to. If you pass this grilling you get your reds and greens and are allowed to do the job for real.
Should sound familiar to RN AEOs. Caused a bit of a fuss when introduced to the RAF but it gives the JEngO a fighting chance when he gets onto the Sqn for real. It allows him to learn how it should be done and be introduced into how Lineys think(
) before he gets swamped with the additional Flt Cmdr stuff that he should already know from his first tour.However, as people have already said you are always learning. Learning to take aircrew banter is all part of the fun!
However, if you want to stay in the CE side of things I imagine there are many different ways that the RAF will teach you things once you leave Cranwell.
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dhurst
Speaking as someone who came from the ranks, I found the Officer ranks a formidable place that the 2 courses at Cranwell did not prepare me for. So on arrival at my first tour I sat back (not literally) and watched others, how they interacted and how I perceived the people (SNCOs) viewed them. It quickly becomes clear that you are not meant to be best mates but there is a mutual respect, heavily weighted towards the more senior and knowledgeable SNCO, that prevents the whole system grinding to a halt.
I actually felt a fraud for the first 3 years as I didn't think anything that Cranwell had taught made me anything more than I was before. The eureka moment was a drunk conversation at exchange drinks (with SNCOs) I realised that it is confidence to lead and a full understanding of your team that makes it work. I learnt to know my team, understand what they need to get a job done and help where I could (and not get in the way too much!).
Waffling bit over. You will enjoy Cranwell but it is not the RAF as you do not get to interact with the guy who has had 3 hours sleep because he has a new baby at home or the fantastic worker whose life crashes around him when his wife leaves. Never underestimate how skilled the people the people you 'think' you are leading are.
PA
Speaking as someone who came from the ranks, I found the Officer ranks a formidable place that the 2 courses at Cranwell did not prepare me for. So on arrival at my first tour I sat back (not literally) and watched others, how they interacted and how I perceived the people (SNCOs) viewed them. It quickly becomes clear that you are not meant to be best mates but there is a mutual respect, heavily weighted towards the more senior and knowledgeable SNCO, that prevents the whole system grinding to a halt.
I actually felt a fraud for the first 3 years as I didn't think anything that Cranwell had taught made me anything more than I was before. The eureka moment was a drunk conversation at exchange drinks (with SNCOs) I realised that it is confidence to lead and a full understanding of your team that makes it work. I learnt to know my team, understand what they need to get a job done and help where I could (and not get in the way too much!).
Waffling bit over. You will enjoy Cranwell but it is not the RAF as you do not get to interact with the guy who has had 3 hours sleep because he has a new baby at home or the fantastic worker whose life crashes around him when his wife leaves. Never underestimate how skilled the people the people you 'think' you are leading are.
PA
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Dhurst, to answer your question briefly, yes. the new course is less lecture focussed (but there will still be lectures!) and more practical in its training methods. As it doesn't start until 31 Jul we will have to see how well it achieves its aim; that said, we have already integrated some of these techniques into the current course. See also Per Ardua and WhiteOvies excellent posts on JEngO training and your responsibilities as an officer.
Blacksheep, Not all JEngOs will "play in the sandpit" but, given the recent news on extra military support in Afghanistan, you can make your own assumptions. As a non-Engineer I'm still trying to understand "Forward & Depth" and I'm booked in for my lecture on the LEAN process later this month!
Interestingly, one of the DTR contractors has suggested St Athan as its preferred location (and that is freely available public domain glossy brochure stuff) for the delivery of aeronautical engineering training if it wins the bid so who knows?!
I'd better not say any more on the subject to avoid thread creep.
Blacksheep, Not all JEngOs will "play in the sandpit" but, given the recent news on extra military support in Afghanistan, you can make your own assumptions. As a non-Engineer I'm still trying to understand "Forward & Depth" and I'm booked in for my lecture on the LEAN process later this month!
Interestingly, one of the DTR contractors has suggested St Athan as its preferred location (and that is freely available public domain glossy brochure stuff) for the delivery of aeronautical engineering training if it wins the bid so who knows?!
I'd better not say any more on the subject to avoid thread creep.
Who needs to worry about Grammar
The phenomenal power of the human mind. I cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was rdanieg. The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid! Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer inwaht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Amzanig huh? Yaeh, and I awlyas thought slpeling was ipmorantt
The phenomenal power of the human mind. I cdnuolt blveiee taht I cluod aulaclty uesdnatnrd waht I was rdanieg. The phaonmneal pweor of the hmuan mnid! Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer inwaht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Amzanig huh? Yaeh, and I awlyas thought slpeling was ipmorantt
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Watch your spelling Langball. . . . .. . . . . . 
I've said it before. If someone comes on here with crap spelling, grammar etc then someone usually picks up on it and the said subject will take the hint. They may not turn into a human dictionary by their next post, but they know what people are getting at and I am sure if they are motivated and worthy of getting in the Forces, that they will work on it OVER A PERIOD OF TIME.
It does get boring and tiresome when everyone jumps on the bandwagon points out EVERY mistake the guy continues to make.
Once the English school teacher bit is done, continual picking at the posts serve little purpose. They come to ask advice, they don't hang around for grammar lessons !!
Let's lighten up on the poor souls. We are all chilled out aircrew mates in the main aren't we ?!?!?!
I've said it before. If someone comes on here with crap spelling, grammar etc then someone usually picks up on it and the said subject will take the hint. They may not turn into a human dictionary by their next post, but they know what people are getting at and I am sure if they are motivated and worthy of getting in the Forces, that they will work on it OVER A PERIOD OF TIME.
It does get boring and tiresome when everyone jumps on the bandwagon points out EVERY mistake the guy continues to make.
Once the English school teacher bit is done, continual picking at the posts serve little purpose. They come to ask advice, they don't hang around for grammar lessons !!
Let's lighten up on the poor souls. We are all chilled out aircrew mates in the main aren't we ?!?!?!
I blame the P.C. for the bad grammar (not so much the spelling).
I am a 'self taught' two finger typist. I can type reasonably fast, but I still have to look at the keyboard. I'm guaranteed to hit the right key, plus or minus one (up, down, left or right). The result is a first draft of total crap. I then run the spell checker over it (nearly always accepting the suggested correction). Problem is it doesn't always catch the spelling (I once wrote a memo about ‘socks of fire fighting foam’).
I always proof read it from the screen; problem is I now what it’s supposed to say ('cause I wrote it). But my proof reading will gloss over obvious spelling and grammar errors.
By the way, what's this thread supposed to be about?
I am a 'self taught' two finger typist. I can type reasonably fast, but I still have to look at the keyboard. I'm guaranteed to hit the right key, plus or minus one (up, down, left or right). The result is a first draft of total crap. I then run the spell checker over it (nearly always accepting the suggested correction). Problem is it doesn't always catch the spelling (I once wrote a memo about ‘socks of fire fighting foam’).
I always proof read it from the screen; problem is I now what it’s supposed to say ('cause I wrote it). But my proof reading will gloss over obvious spelling and grammar errors.
By the way, what's this thread supposed to be about?
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My advice would be to try and get hold of the Engineer Branch Yearbook 2006 - your AFCO should be able to provide you with a copy. Be aware that the role of an Engo has changed a lot in recent years. In the 21st Century RAF second line has all but gone and with it some pretty decent opportunities for Flt Cdr tours (CE and AS). I am sure it has been said by previous posters on this thread that you will learn more in your first 6 months as a Flt Cdr than you could ever learn at Cranwell. IOT lays the foundation stones for your career, how you build on them depends on the relationships you build with your subordinates, peers and superiors and of course your actual skill. I doubt your degree will assist you in any way aside from opening the door to you.
You should also be aware that because second line jobs are now few and far between, you may well find yourself in a staff tour at the DPA, DLO or Cmd. If you enjoy contract monitoring, working with industry and above all making the tea, you shouldn't have any problems at all. If, however, you want a bit of excitment from your career you will need to be at first line and you will need to compete with many others who want the same. This goes for CE and AS jobs alike. As the RAF draws down in numbers so too do many of the truelly rewarding jobs - be prepared to fight for the job you want or be prepared to be disapointed.
Finally, be wary of what you are offered in terms of a commission. There is no guarentee that a Short Service Commission will automatically lead on to a full PC. Many EngOs, despite being fine Flt Cdrs and having good write ups have found the recent manpower reductions to be brutal, indiscriminate and ultimately, for those who really wanted to stay in, a crushing disapointment.
If the above hasn't put you off, my advice is to go for it! In no other industry will you have such levels of responsibility delegated to you so early in your career.
Oh and one last thing, when a pilot says that you should have tried harder at school - then you could be a pilot too, just remember that EngOs need a degree to do their job. Pilots don't.
You should also be aware that because second line jobs are now few and far between, you may well find yourself in a staff tour at the DPA, DLO or Cmd. If you enjoy contract monitoring, working with industry and above all making the tea, you shouldn't have any problems at all. If, however, you want a bit of excitment from your career you will need to be at first line and you will need to compete with many others who want the same. This goes for CE and AS jobs alike. As the RAF draws down in numbers so too do many of the truelly rewarding jobs - be prepared to fight for the job you want or be prepared to be disapointed.
Finally, be wary of what you are offered in terms of a commission. There is no guarentee that a Short Service Commission will automatically lead on to a full PC. Many EngOs, despite being fine Flt Cdrs and having good write ups have found the recent manpower reductions to be brutal, indiscriminate and ultimately, for those who really wanted to stay in, a crushing disapointment.
If the above hasn't put you off, my advice is to go for it! In no other industry will you have such levels of responsibility delegated to you so early in your career.
Oh and one last thing, when a pilot says that you should have tried harder at school - then you could be a pilot too, just remember that EngOs need a degree to do their job. Pilots don't.
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RAF Engineering Branch Yearbook
One word of warning, the RAF Engineering Branch Yearbook 2006 is out of date and has lots of errors in it, so check the facts before you quote them at any selection interview - A6 hub at Scampton - that idea was canned ages ago and as for the picture of the TCW deployed radar - the Wing have not deployed radars for years, even when they did, it certainly was not an air defence radar as pictured in the article by his retired airship - that is the remit of 1ACC. I sincerely hope that whichever one of the editorial team made that cock-up has gone out and shot themselves.
Having said all that, the Eng branch, particularly the CE side has a bright an interesting future and offers a lot more than you would get in civvie street.
Bear
Having said all that, the Eng branch, particularly the CE side has a bright an interesting future and offers a lot more than you would get in civvie street.
Bear
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I have been talking to the Engineer Liaison team aswell as AFCO and all seems very interesting. The new way that the course is structured I think alot of students will benefit from it. As if they are anything like myself then they will learn from more of a practical aproach rather then the lecture sides. Going back to what someone posted before about typing on the computer, I touch type and I think thats where most of my mistakes come from.
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DHurst
As an old and bold SNCO, the things that make a good EngO is someone who:
a. Listens….. There is a vast difference between hearing and listening.
b. Tries at least once in their tour to look at the Sqadron state board and not feel the need to ask the Rectification Controller to explain what the aircraft states are. Especially when the recs cont is having one of those days. Its all on the board. However, for the hard of thinking, we will read it out to you if need be.
c. Without being pink and fluffy, at least once a week tries and talks to his guys, at all levels, about normal things. The odd thank you works well. Like everyone, we all need loving, even grumpy rigger SNECs.
d. At the Sqn beer call doesn't go swanning off with their aircrew buddies but stays with his shift. Ps the aircrew don't really like you...they just want your aircraft.
Finally, when the going gets tough, stop smile and have a laugh….it don’t half make things run better when you know that even the EngO can smile through adversity.
If you can do any of the above the people around will see you right…...
As an old and bold SNCO, the things that make a good EngO is someone who:
a. Listens….. There is a vast difference between hearing and listening.
b. Tries at least once in their tour to look at the Sqadron state board and not feel the need to ask the Rectification Controller to explain what the aircraft states are. Especially when the recs cont is having one of those days. Its all on the board. However, for the hard of thinking, we will read it out to you if need be.
c. Without being pink and fluffy, at least once a week tries and talks to his guys, at all levels, about normal things. The odd thank you works well. Like everyone, we all need loving, even grumpy rigger SNECs.
d. At the Sqn beer call doesn't go swanning off with their aircrew buddies but stays with his shift. Ps the aircrew don't really like you...they just want your aircraft.
Finally, when the going gets tough, stop smile and have a laugh….it don’t half make things run better when you know that even the EngO can smile through adversity.
If you can do any of the above the people around will see you right…...
How long have there been Engineer Year Books and if they're more than a year or so old why did I never get one? Always knew there was something going on that people weren't telling me about!
Edited to add that AvTech's words should be written down and dusted off every few months.
Edited to add that AvTech's words should be written down and dusted off every few months.
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Cheers for that advice AvTech! I think that I can manage to do that. Well I say that now bit I am sure its more difficult once your doing it. So from your experience you think that the aircrew dont really like you? as I have many friends in the RAF who are pilots infact my Brother in Law is one. And they all say why dont you apply for pilot? they can never see why I want to be a Engineer.