British Plane on Fire in Afghanistan..
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: In Hyperspace...
Posts: 395
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Looking at the wreckage, I'd be amazed if anything combustible survived. Imprests aren't fireproof after all!
I'm betting JPA Expenses doesn't have a "Reciepts incinerated in aircraft wreckage" option...
I'm betting JPA Expenses doesn't have a "Reciepts incinerated in aircraft wreckage" option...
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Too far North - hardly a RAF base that isn't these days...
Posts: 224
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Won't S.F. have their own printing machine for receipts? Or will they just claim for several snack meals, each under £5.00 local equivalent, per day like the rest of us? Not to mention a <£5.00 laundry bill, <£5.00 newspaper and <£5.00 'phone call, totalling on average <£10.00 per day.
hmmmmm how about we get some of the firemen who want to strike out there.
It obviously caught fire and they get paid for what there prepared to do.
And it was daylight so they were not asleep preparing for there second jobs.
Just a thought for them.
Glad everyone got out
It obviously caught fire and they get paid for what there prepared to do.
And it was daylight so they were not asleep preparing for there second jobs.
Just a thought for them.
Glad everyone got out
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Everywhere
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Glad everyone out relatively OK
Glad all made it out okay, and pray the injured speedily recover. Nige, today brought back that Saturday sitting out behind the condemned married quarters in S.Vito getting shedded when the XV298 crew came home. Don't care to relive the feelings waiting for them to be picked up by the coalition helo.
ExHerkmate
ExHerkmate
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: wilts
Posts: 1,667
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
When I said earlier that we plied them with drink, I think we actually did the drinking in shifts. We couldn't keep up! It was quite difficult being left behind and picking up the pieces. I am sure the guys in Afg will be OK, but the whole world has changed since 298. Scary times.
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: England
Posts: 76
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
English Wars
Airborne Artist asks: I wonder what the Afghans will be calling it?
A good Afghan friend (the only Afghan Army officer to have trained at Sandhurst - vintage 1971 or so) insisted that what we called the Afghan Wars they called the English Wars. A great guy - my wife used to go weak at the knees when he turned out in the middle of Kabul in Sandhurst mufti of blue blazer and cavalry twills. Told me that the British Army was the only model for an Afghan army: small, highly trained, volunteer, moving fast. As exemplified in the Retribution Expedition in Sep 1842. Later he was a mujhadin fighter, then a taxi driver in Washington DC (another first for Sandhurst?).
A good Afghan friend (the only Afghan Army officer to have trained at Sandhurst - vintage 1971 or so) insisted that what we called the Afghan Wars they called the English Wars. A great guy - my wife used to go weak at the knees when he turned out in the middle of Kabul in Sandhurst mufti of blue blazer and cavalry twills. Told me that the British Army was the only model for an Afghan army: small, highly trained, volunteer, moving fast. As exemplified in the Retribution Expedition in Sep 1842. Later he was a mujhadin fighter, then a taxi driver in Washington DC (another first for Sandhurst?).
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: green fields....
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Can the DIRCM head be salvaged???
Gents, and Ladys.
A lot of talk of foam and kevlar and other 'mods' that would make us totally impervious to whatever the bad blokeys would care to throw at us...(apart from RPG's)
Foam. ok, if the MOD fit it, they will only fit it to a select group of frames(which has just decreased by one) and as they are looking to buy only one half of the kit, wing maintenance will become a nightmare. For those of you who do not know the make up of the foam, I suggest you look into it very carefully. Any impact on maintenance time has an impact on A/C availibility.P.S, a certain nation already has this Mod fitted to its C130's, but are removing it because of fuel flow problems to the engines.
Kevlar for the cargo bay. Lets be realistic here. the armour on the J's and subsequently fitted to the K's weighs about 550 Kg's, and that is just a small proportion of the A/C. If you were to fit it for everyones protection, no way in hell would you get off the ground.
LOX. The BAF has fitted Molecular Oxygen systems to its H fleet, but has some reliability issues wtih it. I think its pretty safe to say that the UK herc fleet's LOX pots are more than adequately protected.
Morales of the story.....
1.any A/C manufacture can build an A/C that is 'everything' proof, the only drawback is you wont be able to fly it, and it will cost you an arm and a leg.
2. The powers that be fought very hard (probably) to get all the 'guici' mods to the K's, but at what cost????.(i.e. if it really doesn't cost that much to fit, why wasn't it done a long time ago?)
3. Operational Risk. We all sign up to do a job, sometimes its good, sometimes bad. But with both sides of the coin we accept the risk inherent with the job at hand.
I do not by any means wish to stir up a hornets nest of abuse with these things, but I do believe we live in a far from perfect world, where monitary issues come before lives.(unfortunately)
SC
A lot of talk of foam and kevlar and other 'mods' that would make us totally impervious to whatever the bad blokeys would care to throw at us...(apart from RPG's)
Foam. ok, if the MOD fit it, they will only fit it to a select group of frames(which has just decreased by one) and as they are looking to buy only one half of the kit, wing maintenance will become a nightmare. For those of you who do not know the make up of the foam, I suggest you look into it very carefully. Any impact on maintenance time has an impact on A/C availibility.P.S, a certain nation already has this Mod fitted to its C130's, but are removing it because of fuel flow problems to the engines.
Kevlar for the cargo bay. Lets be realistic here. the armour on the J's and subsequently fitted to the K's weighs about 550 Kg's, and that is just a small proportion of the A/C. If you were to fit it for everyones protection, no way in hell would you get off the ground.
LOX. The BAF has fitted Molecular Oxygen systems to its H fleet, but has some reliability issues wtih it. I think its pretty safe to say that the UK herc fleet's LOX pots are more than adequately protected.
Morales of the story.....
1.any A/C manufacture can build an A/C that is 'everything' proof, the only drawback is you wont be able to fly it, and it will cost you an arm and a leg.
2. The powers that be fought very hard (probably) to get all the 'guici' mods to the K's, but at what cost????.(i.e. if it really doesn't cost that much to fit, why wasn't it done a long time ago?)
3. Operational Risk. We all sign up to do a job, sometimes its good, sometimes bad. But with both sides of the coin we accept the risk inherent with the job at hand.
I do not by any means wish to stir up a hornets nest of abuse with these things, but I do believe we live in a far from perfect world, where monitary issues come before lives.(unfortunately)
SC
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: wilts
Posts: 1,667
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Spanked cat you make some very interesting points. I would like to add the following. I would hope that RAF are aware of the following potential problems.
"It is relatively simple to fit, if messy. And with the unfamiliarity with it, the RAF will very likely experience some initial teething problems in the form of clogged fuel filters! When they install the foam, the edges of it can "splinter" or "rub" off (it is cut/shaped with a simple razor knife) and end up as so much detrius caught in the filter - the scale of which can result in flameouts! The other limitation is when any in-tank servicing must be done, it is quite the chore to remove the foam and then reinstall it. If you hear of any unexplained flameouts, contact the SENGO & suggest a one time inspection of all foam-equipped aircraft fuel filters. fortunately, all of our flameouts occurred on the ground..."
That said, I am yet to meet a USAF Herc pilot who would not want to go into a war zone without foam protection.
On the point about kevlar matting. I hope you will find that the Australians manage OK. I know we have Aus readers of this site and I would very much like to hear about their experiences both with foam and matting. This matting is rolled out and can be removed easily. Remember Hercs can be packed with troops. In my experience, ALMs correct me if I am wrong, the herc will bulk out on pax before exceeding max weights. FDA on J is lightweight. I am familiar with FDA on K which was very different. I am not an expert, I am highlighting issues of concern. RAAF set about trying to protect passengers because a passenger on board, was shot and killed by small arms fire piercing the ac skin. I am impressed by their determination to try and prevent another incident happening again. Surely you can see the merit in trying to protect your passengers? When I flew into Afg it was at MOW. Max military T/O weights, landing weights were up to captain and crew. A Herc can go with 175k old money so the weight of freight bay protection is unlikely to be an issue. If 206 did run over a mine on a strip would you have liked to have had such protection on board? I know what my answer would be.
Please let us know which nation is removing foam. I understand that another coalition partner has decided to fit foam in the last few days. I am not saying which because I do not have official confirmation yet. The Americans have used this stuff for 40 years, so I do not see why it is so problematical for other nations.
Finally, I understand your point about signing up to the job. With the greatest respect though, that sort of attitude in isolation would have left us with dumb/slicks for yet another Op. I am no longer in RAF, I just do not want to see any more unnecessary death. We must continue to strive for the safety of military personnel. I did my time and I knew the risk, but my wife did not sign neither did my kids. They are the ones who have to pick up the pieces.
Cheers
NG
"It is relatively simple to fit, if messy. And with the unfamiliarity with it, the RAF will very likely experience some initial teething problems in the form of clogged fuel filters! When they install the foam, the edges of it can "splinter" or "rub" off (it is cut/shaped with a simple razor knife) and end up as so much detrius caught in the filter - the scale of which can result in flameouts! The other limitation is when any in-tank servicing must be done, it is quite the chore to remove the foam and then reinstall it. If you hear of any unexplained flameouts, contact the SENGO & suggest a one time inspection of all foam-equipped aircraft fuel filters. fortunately, all of our flameouts occurred on the ground..."
That said, I am yet to meet a USAF Herc pilot who would not want to go into a war zone without foam protection.
On the point about kevlar matting. I hope you will find that the Australians manage OK. I know we have Aus readers of this site and I would very much like to hear about their experiences both with foam and matting. This matting is rolled out and can be removed easily. Remember Hercs can be packed with troops. In my experience, ALMs correct me if I am wrong, the herc will bulk out on pax before exceeding max weights. FDA on J is lightweight. I am familiar with FDA on K which was very different. I am not an expert, I am highlighting issues of concern. RAAF set about trying to protect passengers because a passenger on board, was shot and killed by small arms fire piercing the ac skin. I am impressed by their determination to try and prevent another incident happening again. Surely you can see the merit in trying to protect your passengers? When I flew into Afg it was at MOW. Max military T/O weights, landing weights were up to captain and crew. A Herc can go with 175k old money so the weight of freight bay protection is unlikely to be an issue. If 206 did run over a mine on a strip would you have liked to have had such protection on board? I know what my answer would be.
Please let us know which nation is removing foam. I understand that another coalition partner has decided to fit foam in the last few days. I am not saying which because I do not have official confirmation yet. The Americans have used this stuff for 40 years, so I do not see why it is so problematical for other nations.
Finally, I understand your point about signing up to the job. With the greatest respect though, that sort of attitude in isolation would have left us with dumb/slicks for yet another Op. I am no longer in RAF, I just do not want to see any more unnecessary death. We must continue to strive for the safety of military personnel. I did my time and I knew the risk, but my wife did not sign neither did my kids. They are the ones who have to pick up the pieces.
Cheers
NG
Last edited by nigegilb; 27th May 2006 at 17:41.
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: wilts
Posts: 1,667
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
HE;
Note the quotation marks, experienced operators words, not mine. Included for benefit of RAF just in case they were not aware of bedding in probs. Am trying to be helpful. I do not have to fit it but if I was taxying out and the engine flamed out I would be more than slightly alarmed. We have different methods but we share the same end game.
NG
Note the quotation marks, experienced operators words, not mine. Included for benefit of RAF just in case they were not aware of bedding in probs. Am trying to be helpful. I do not have to fit it but if I was taxying out and the engine flamed out I would be more than slightly alarmed. We have different methods but we share the same end game.
NG
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: green fields....
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Armour
Its the ceramic plates in the armour that stops the big stuff. The kevlar matting only provides something a bit more comfortable to lie on. Hence why the police use kevlar anti-stab vest's, but have ceramic body armour to stop bullets...
replacement A/C....laugh, I nearly did!
replacement A/C....laugh, I nearly did!
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: wilts
Posts: 1,667
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ballistic matting
Words of Gp Cpt Bennett RAAF
"The ballistic matting is intended as a protection against small arms rounds that might penetrate the aircraft, as occurred in an incident earlier this year when a US civilian died in a Hercules hit by small arms fire. The matting acts as a form of armour, similar to the underfloor and seat armour fitted to helicopters in Vietnam."
Believe me the Aussies do their homework.
"The ballistic matting is intended as a protection against small arms rounds that might penetrate the aircraft, as occurred in an incident earlier this year when a US civilian died in a Hercules hit by small arms fire. The matting acts as a form of armour, similar to the underfloor and seat armour fitted to helicopters in Vietnam."
Believe me the Aussies do their homework.
Under floor and seat armor on helicopters in Vietnam
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: wilts
Posts: 1,667
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Maybe the Aus kit was different in 'nam. Sorted my books out today SASless found an old copy of chickenhawk. Top book.
This is a link to the Gp Cpt Bennett interview
http://www.defence.gov.au/news/raafn...es/story02.htm
This is a link to the Gp Cpt Bennett interview
http://www.defence.gov.au/news/raafn...es/story02.htm
Last edited by nigegilb; 15th Jun 2006 at 08:10.
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 737
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
A few photos have been doing the rounds at Lyneham, and now they have been posted on the C130 Hercules HQ website. Not by me, boss.
More at
http://p076.ezboard.com/fc130hercule...art=21&stop=30
More at
http://p076.ezboard.com/fc130hercule...art=21&stop=30