Harrier Carrier Currency
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Harrier Carrier Currency
Bit of a discrepancy between STC and FLEET estimates over the minimum requirement (on board) to maintain currency for Harrier/CVS operations:
STC say 10 days.
FLEET say 25 weeks.
Discuss!
STC say 10 days.
FLEET say 25 weeks.
Discuss!
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by Lockstock
How about you DISCUSS! it first?
What is your opinion??
What is your opinion??
Two questions arise:
Is it difficult and therefore requires constant and lengthy periods of practice (and thus STC have got it wildly wrong)?
Or is it just that the RN wants everyone to be at sea for as long as possible because they (themselves) have to?
Would you like to discuss that?
Well, I'm not a Harrier mate either but have seen the RN at work; they seem to work to longer timescales than their light blue counterparts.
I think your 2nd explanation is nearer the true reason; 25 weeks is a bit much though!
I think your 2nd explanation is nearer the true reason; 25 weeks is a bit much though!
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Temporarily missing from the Joe Louis Arena
Posts: 2,131
Received 27 Likes
on
16 Posts
Originally Posted by ZH875
10 Days is not enough time for everyone to take their turn in the Barrel
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 1,136
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Simple really old chap.
Crab stat is probably based on "strap harrier to one's backside, land on CVS, re-fuel, launch, land at Cottesmore, retire to bar CVS current for next 12 months".
RN stat is just as likely based on "figure plucked from thin air moulded by educated estimation to produce CVS capability for HMG with all parts tested in all roles from head to toe".
Two worlds colliding, 180 by zip, at just over the speed of heat.
Crab stat is probably based on "strap harrier to one's backside, land on CVS, re-fuel, launch, land at Cottesmore, retire to bar CVS current for next 12 months".
RN stat is just as likely based on "figure plucked from thin air moulded by educated estimation to produce CVS capability for HMG with all parts tested in all roles from head to toe".
Two worlds colliding, 180 by zip, at just over the speed of heat.
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Wenatchee, WA
Posts: 160
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Orca,
What you say may have an element of truth, but it cuts both ways. GR7/9 pilots spend almost an entire winter season getting 'Night Combat Ready'. The SHar sqn I encountered threw a flare pack off the back of the boat one night, all took off and dropped 4 unscored bombs at it, landed, and came swanning into the bar on 5 deck bragging of their new 'Night Combat Ready' status....
In my opinion:
There's nothing particularly special about landing on a boat in daylight - it's easier than landing on a mexe pad. Granted, night landings are a different kettle of fish.
All a GR7/9 mate needs is a couple of sorties to figure out all the various oddities of deck handling, charlie times etc and there isn't much more to it.
It certainly isn't necessary to practice bobbing up and down for 25 weeks just to establish that life on board a boat is fundamentally mind-numbingly boring and that once you've done a bit of ACM and bombed the splash target, there's not a whole lot else to do unless there's a war/exercise on.
I would venture to say that the captain of an aircraft carrier gets a bit sad and depressed looking out at his shiney flight deck when it doesn't have any jets / helos on it. He probably needs things to play with to keep all his people current / interested. Hence the RN requirement.
Regards,
Single Seat, Single Engine, The Only Way To Fly
What you say may have an element of truth, but it cuts both ways. GR7/9 pilots spend almost an entire winter season getting 'Night Combat Ready'. The SHar sqn I encountered threw a flare pack off the back of the boat one night, all took off and dropped 4 unscored bombs at it, landed, and came swanning into the bar on 5 deck bragging of their new 'Night Combat Ready' status....
In my opinion:
There's nothing particularly special about landing on a boat in daylight - it's easier than landing on a mexe pad. Granted, night landings are a different kettle of fish.
All a GR7/9 mate needs is a couple of sorties to figure out all the various oddities of deck handling, charlie times etc and there isn't much more to it.
It certainly isn't necessary to practice bobbing up and down for 25 weeks just to establish that life on board a boat is fundamentally mind-numbingly boring and that once you've done a bit of ACM and bombed the splash target, there's not a whole lot else to do unless there's a war/exercise on.
I would venture to say that the captain of an aircraft carrier gets a bit sad and depressed looking out at his shiney flight deck when it doesn't have any jets / helos on it. He probably needs things to play with to keep all his people current / interested. Hence the RN requirement.
Regards,
Single Seat, Single Engine, The Only Way To Fly
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 1,136
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Couldn't agree more old chap - it's a floating mexe pad, and it's alot bigger than vigo wood. the whole piching and rolling thing is defeatable as well.
My point had nothing to do with what the SHAR considered to be night current either - i speak not of the Fleet air Arm but the Maritime Strike capability.
Whether we need it or not is another argument. But if we want to tell MPs that we have a carrier ready to go that means getting the whole ship working to recover and throw off jets. That means the MCO getting the ATO, the stokers getting the donks up to ramming speed, the briefo's being ready on time, the tractor drivers getting the strike ready at the back having seen them all taxy into the grave yard......
So there you go...there's the delta. I'm not saying anyone's right or anyone's wrong. But one camp is talking about being CVS current and the other is talking about a current CVS.
My point had nothing to do with what the SHAR considered to be night current either - i speak not of the Fleet air Arm but the Maritime Strike capability.
Whether we need it or not is another argument. But if we want to tell MPs that we have a carrier ready to go that means getting the whole ship working to recover and throw off jets. That means the MCO getting the ATO, the stokers getting the donks up to ramming speed, the briefo's being ready on time, the tractor drivers getting the strike ready at the back having seen them all taxy into the grave yard......
So there you go...there's the delta. I'm not saying anyone's right or anyone's wrong. But one camp is talking about being CVS current and the other is talking about a current CVS.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: England
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
barrel
Originally Posted by ZH875
10 Days is not enough time for everyone to take their turn in the Barrel
at least someone has heard my favourite joke,about turn they took there turn in it
SSEEEEETTOOFFTFTF, I think you do the GR7 boys an injustice. Flying to a deck is not easier than to a mexepad. A mexipad does not pitch up and down or roll from side to side, a mexepad does not suddenly alter course when the Bosun's Mate leans on the wheel when chatting up the Wren stood next to him. If you cock up a mexipad landing you can land somewhere else on the runway, If you cock up a landing on a deck, you have very limited fuel and power options to have another go at it. In poor weather, finding the ship is bad enough. Ever stood looking over the edge of a ramp? Ever launched yourself up the deck in the dark and into the bleak Atlantic Sky, with nothing but water below you? Ever sat in a cockpit hanging over the edge of the deck, relying on that guy in the yellow vest to stop you in time, before you and the jet topples over the edge? Ever been spooked sat lashed on deck, when you feel the whole aircraft move as the ship turns? (Chinnook 1987!). I agree with previous posts that 25 weeks is probably incorrect or a typo, but 10 days is the bare minimum to maintain the skills required to operate off a deck. It is not just about being a monkey on a stick, it is about the whole ship's team also training and getting used to handling sometimes up to 17 jets in a limited space without killing anyone or damaging anything. It takes at least 10 days to build up the trust between crew and aircrew so that when the s**t hits the fan, you know that you can rely on the guy/girl on the deck or that voice on the radio.Those who fly from ships, RN, Marine, Army or RAF have my utmost respect gained from watching many of them over the last 20 years, put their faith in the equipment and team around them.
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: Wenatchee, WA
Posts: 160
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Widger,
"Ever stood looking over the edge of a ramp?" - Yep. Spent 8 weeks flying off the good ship Lusty
"Ever launched yourself up the deck in the dark and into the bleak Atlantic Sky, with nothing but water below you?" - Nope, not the Atlantic, but I have in the Pacific & Persian Gulf Skies.
"Ever sat in a cockpit hanging over the edge of the deck, relying on that guy in the yellow vest to stop you in time, before you and the jet topples over the edge? Ever been spooked sat lashed on deck, when you feel the whole aircraft move as the ship turns?" - Yep. Operated off LHD-6, USS Bonhomme Richard, for 7 1/2 months.
You're right that ships do move around a bit, but personally I find the scan in the hover alongside a big superstructure (in the day), to be easier than trying to find some festering marker boards (on a UK mexe) or having to look over the side of the jet at 70' to make sure you're over an un-marked USMC pad. But, as with all thing, ask 2 Harrier pilots, you'll get 2 different answers.
I wholeheartedly agree with both you and Orca though, that it takes a lot of work to get the boys and girls who operate the ship, from the stokers to the deck handlers, up to speed and working as a fully integrated team. So I would suggest that the RN requirement is somewhat driven from that side of things rather than what the pilot has to do/practise.
At the end of the day, I don't believe that the 'crabs' have ever taken the T-10 to sea. We all just figure it out as we go, and, so far, it hasn't proven to be too tricky (in daylight ...). Maybe that's because we're a little more conservative with our limits than the SHar boys - but that could probably lead to another thread.
Regards,
Single Seat, Single Engine, The Only Way To Fly
"Ever stood looking over the edge of a ramp?" - Yep. Spent 8 weeks flying off the good ship Lusty
"Ever launched yourself up the deck in the dark and into the bleak Atlantic Sky, with nothing but water below you?" - Nope, not the Atlantic, but I have in the Pacific & Persian Gulf Skies.
"Ever sat in a cockpit hanging over the edge of the deck, relying on that guy in the yellow vest to stop you in time, before you and the jet topples over the edge? Ever been spooked sat lashed on deck, when you feel the whole aircraft move as the ship turns?" - Yep. Operated off LHD-6, USS Bonhomme Richard, for 7 1/2 months.
You're right that ships do move around a bit, but personally I find the scan in the hover alongside a big superstructure (in the day), to be easier than trying to find some festering marker boards (on a UK mexe) or having to look over the side of the jet at 70' to make sure you're over an un-marked USMC pad. But, as with all thing, ask 2 Harrier pilots, you'll get 2 different answers.
I wholeheartedly agree with both you and Orca though, that it takes a lot of work to get the boys and girls who operate the ship, from the stokers to the deck handlers, up to speed and working as a fully integrated team. So I would suggest that the RN requirement is somewhat driven from that side of things rather than what the pilot has to do/practise.
At the end of the day, I don't believe that the 'crabs' have ever taken the T-10 to sea. We all just figure it out as we go, and, so far, it hasn't proven to be too tricky (in daylight ...). Maybe that's because we're a little more conservative with our limits than the SHar boys - but that could probably lead to another thread.
Regards,
Single Seat, Single Engine, The Only Way To Fly
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: a flat field
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
CVS
SSS you touch some areas but as someone who has over 400DLs the reason why it takes longer is familiarity with the deck by day for both pilot and deck crew. The more familiar you are by day in all weather conditions, the easier it gets by night, therefore, the reason for the length is to groom for night flying. Just ask those who witnessed a GR land in the water not long after arriving after being told to take it gradually. We have years of experience at this, we dont tell the Light Blue how to take off from the field or strips. There is a fine balance on the timing but usually any Navy pilot throughout the world will take at least a couple of months and will have achieved a fair number of DLs. 10 is way too few, however, there would be endless debate on what is the correct number. As an aside all the comments about sitting about bored of comabt etc etc..I think you will see a change of ideas on how the ship/ jets interact..ie the ship goes where the jets need to just as it should be. The future looks very bright and the CVS is just one of many things a busy force has to deal with.
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: 250 ft agl
Posts: 241
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SSSETOFTW- a T10 cannot be taken on to to hovering limitations- the new T12 will come out to play, but carrier deck landings are just like a large pitching moving MEXE pad with a moat around it. Training pre-CVS takes a large chunck of the problem away- as does the sim so that we all know what to expect. If you are good enough, you are good enough...
Widger
It is not just about being a monkey on a stick, it is about the whole ship's team also training and getting used to handling sometimes up to 17 jets in a limited space without killing anyone or damaging anything. It takes at least 10 days to build up the trust between crew and aircrew so that when the s**t hits the fan, you know that you can rely on the guy/girl on the deck or that voice on the radio.
How often will we have 16 or 17 jets aboard a CVS now that the Sea Harrier has gone? Apart from the OCA and DCA issues (as discussed on the Sea Jet thread) the number of aircraft within JFH is reduced by about a third, in addition commitments in Afghanistann and elsewhere continue and training is cuts, flying hours reduced, etc.
Are we going to see skill fade in the next few years, at the time when the expertise relating to fixed wing carrier operations needs to be maintained and increased in preparation for CVF?
It is not just about being a monkey on a stick, it is about the whole ship's team also training and getting used to handling sometimes up to 17 jets in a limited space without killing anyone or damaging anything. It takes at least 10 days to build up the trust between crew and aircrew so that when the s**t hits the fan, you know that you can rely on the guy/girl on the deck or that voice on the radio.
How often will we have 16 or 17 jets aboard a CVS now that the Sea Harrier has gone? Apart from the OCA and DCA issues (as discussed on the Sea Jet thread) the number of aircraft within JFH is reduced by about a third, in addition commitments in Afghanistann and elsewhere continue and training is cuts, flying hours reduced, etc.
Are we going to see skill fade in the next few years, at the time when the expertise relating to fixed wing carrier operations needs to be maintained and increased in preparation for CVF?
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 2,044
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
stickmonkeytamer
Interested in this... could you please expand on the diff(s) between the 2 that allows the T12 to operate on/off ship...
TIA
NoD
a T10 cannot be taken on to to hovering limitations- the new T12 will come out to play
TIA
NoD
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 2,044
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Engines- stronger puff from the new engine
The RAF (and I 
) seem to think the T12 has the same motor http://www.armedforces.co.uk/raf/listings/l0009.html
WEBF
I don't think you'll see any skill fade regarding operating Harriers from the CVS, especially as 800NAS are out on a 2 month deployment as we speak. That's plenty time to get everyone more than qualified (pilots, eng and the rest) on flying and fighting from the deck.
I think 16 or 17 jets on the boat, even with the FA2, is a fairytale scenario. There really isn't room, especially when you need hangar space for maintenance and have baggers, pingers and all the rest of the strike group on board.
Cheers
I don't think you'll see any skill fade regarding operating Harriers from the CVS, especially as 800NAS are out on a 2 month deployment as we speak. That's plenty time to get everyone more than qualified (pilots, eng and the rest) on flying and fighting from the deck.
I think 16 or 17 jets on the boat, even with the FA2, is a fairytale scenario. There really isn't room, especially when you need hangar space for maintenance and have baggers, pingers and all the rest of the strike group on board.
Cheers
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Rural Somerset
Posts: 154
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by The Helpful Stacker
Rum, buggery and the lash, cornerstones of any happy ship apparently.
What a positive addition to this thread from a typical (Un) Helpful REMF!
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: East Anglia
Posts: 1,873
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Helpful Stacker
Rum, buggery and the lash, cornerstones of any happy ship apparently.
You speak from experience????
What a positive addition to this thread from a typical (Un) Helpful REMF!
Well it is a rumour network!
Originally Posted by The Helpful Stacker
Rum, buggery and the lash, cornerstones of any happy ship apparently.
You speak from experience????
What a positive addition to this thread from a typical (Un) Helpful REMF!
Well it is a rumour network!