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Future Carrier (Including Costs)

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Future Carrier (Including Costs)

Old 28th Jan 2021, 07:38
  #6061 (permalink)  
 
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Be careful what you wish for in Oztralia

Building and operating Carriers AND SSN's is very very expensive - one of the reasons the UK is looking at another Defence Review in the next few months
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Old 29th Jan 2021, 07:50
  #6062 (permalink)  
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Nonsense A56 - I think what you meant to say was that operating carriers and SSNs together is essential if you are involved in things like protecting SLOCs over oceanic distances.

This 1978 article from Flight Global might interest you - entitled 'Navy keeps its wings':

Navy keeps its wings part 1

Navy keeps its wings part 2

Not only does it talk about the planned role of CVS/Sea Harrier/Sea King in protecting convoys - doing ASW and dealing with Bears doing long range targeting, but it shows that WG34 (the intended successor to the ASW Sea King) would be very Merlin like. The article focuses on the aircraft that would operate from the CVS, and does not mention that the Sea Harriers would be controlled by Type 42 destroyers and other ships, or that the ASW Sea King would operate alongside frigates - Cold War/Falklands operations. It did not anticipate the development of active dipping sonar, nor how this would be used in conjunction with frigates equipped with towed array sonars.

Some news from the last few weeks: HMS Queen Elizabeth has now assumed the role Of Fleet Flagship. On a more practical note - the RN is increasing personnel numbers by 3000 over the next three years - not only will this allow more ships to be fully crewed and put to sea, but it will help with providing people for the Lightning Force.

Last edited by WE Branch Fanatic; 29th Jan 2021 at 08:58.
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Old 29th Jan 2021, 09:25
  #6063 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by eagle 86 View Post
I think you Brits should thank your lucky stars you appear to have to half decent carriers and a stovie air wing.E86
I believe QNLZ has a number of Australian and New Zealand crew members aboard, who will no doubt be very proud when their ship visits your ports later this year, and when exercising with Aus/NZ maritime assets. I imagine tickets to go aboard for a look round will be very hot property.
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Old 29th Jan 2021, 11:04
  #6064 (permalink)  
 
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" I think what you meant to say was that operating carriers and SSNs together is essential "

No I meant they are both extremely expensive to buy and operate - and whilst an SSN will survive without a carrier escort it isn't the same the other way round............
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Old 30th Jan 2021, 10:35
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A lot of people believe that building Carriers now is the equivalent of building Battleships in 1935. Let’s hope they are wrong!
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Old 30th Jan 2021, 11:44
  #6066 (permalink)  
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Originally Posted by Asturias56 View Post
" I think what you meant to say was that operating carriers and SSNs together is essential "

No I meant they are both extremely expensive to buy and operate - and whilst an SSN will survive without a carrier escort it isn't the same the other way round............
Why would the SSN need a carrier (or any other) escort?

In the face of massed air and submarine threats, can the amphibious force or reinforcement/resupply convoy survive without a carrier with fighters and ASW helicopters? See the HSC Fire and Ice paper which highlights the Cold War roles of NATO carriers, possible maritime threats during a conflict in the NATO theatre, and the role of British, American, French, Italian (and Spanish) carriers in responding to Russian attempts to interdict Sea Lines of Communications or to strike NATO vulnerable points. Indeed the paper calls for a a British led carrier task group with NATO ships including SSNs and SSKs being part of that group.

Originally Posted by KiloB
A lot of people believe that building Carriers now is the equivalent of building Battleships in 1935. Letís hope they are wrong!
The problem with the battleship was that her ability to hit other warships or other vessels, or targets ashore, was limited by the range of her guns. Her ability to deal with air attack, or to defend other ships in a convoy, was very limited, and her anti submarine capability was approximately zero. Carriers could (and can) do all these things, with her aircraft working with other warships.

See this cracking old documentary:


At 7.00 minutes there is mention of escort carriers and the crucial role that they played in the Atlantic and in the Arctic Convoys - with fighters and torpedo bombers (performing anti U boat roles). The long range actions at Taranto, Matapan, and against the Bismarck and Tirpitz are also mentioned.


Last edited by WE Branch Fanatic; 30th Jan 2021 at 23:27.
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Old 31st Jan 2021, 07:53
  #6067 (permalink)  
 
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WEBF - I struggle with the idea that any future conflict will involve convoys across the Atlantic - IF it stays non-nuclear any conflict in Europe will still only last a few weeks

This isn't 1940
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Old 10th Feb 2021, 07:52
  #6068 (permalink)  
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https://www.dvidshub.net/news/388636...-gerald-r-ford

Super Hornet FRS Squadron Marks a First, Qualifies Naval Aviators Using PLM on USS Gerald R. Ford

For the first time Naval Aviators assigned to the “Gladiators” of Fleet Replacement Squadron (FRS) Strike Fighter Squadron (VFA) 106 qualified onboard the Ford-class aircraft carrier USS Gerald R. Ford (CVN 78) using the Precision Landing Mode (PLM), Feb. 8.

Carrier Strike Groups have been using PLM since 2017. In October 2017, Carrier Air Wing (CVW) 2 was the first to conduct Composite Unit Training Exercise (COMPTUEX) aboard USS Carl Vinson (CVN 70) with PLM.

Precision Landing Mode (PLM) provides improved safety, efficiency, and success rates in recovering fixed-wing aircraft onboard aircraft carriers while easing pilot workload. The new flight control technology improves overall boarding rates, creates the potential to reduce tanker requirements and improves Naval Aviation’s effectiveness.

“The pilots still have to fly the landing pattern around the ship and control the line-up, but with PLM, the glide slope control is smoother, and deviation is much smaller, making for a much safer landing qualification,” said Rear Adm. John Meier, Commander Naval Air Forces Atlantic. “The improved wave-off characteristics make PLM inherently safer for the aircraft carrier.”

PLM increases the safety of the most challenging evolution our pilots and flight deck crews face on a daily basis. Our most valuable asset is our people. PLM will also increase training efficiency, pilot proficiency, and enable aircrew to better use flight time to train for the diverse, and ever expanding assortment of tactical and strategic missions for which the Super Hornet and Naval Aviation as a whole is so renowned.

Precision Landing Mode was originally developed as part of the Maritime Augmented Guidance with Integrated Controls for Carrier Approach and Recovery Precision Enabling Technologies (MAGIC CARPET) program.

The technology as implemented in the Super Hornet was first tested at sea in April 2015, when Air Test and Evaluation Squadron (VX) 23 pilots and Naval Air Warfare Center Aircraft Division (NAWCAD) aeromechanics division engineers from Naval Air Station (NAS) Patuxent River, Md. demonstrated the software aboard CVN 77........
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Old 10th Feb 2021, 14:59
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Originally Posted by Asturias56 View Post
WEBF - I struggle with the idea that any future conflict will involve convoys across the Atlantic - IF it stays non-nuclear any conflict in Europe will still only last a few weeks

This isn't 1940
Australia is discovering that China can signal displeasure very strongly just by not buying stuff.
Given the ongoing industrial production shifts to Asia from the West, China will add the capacity to halt shipments of manufactured goods for even greater effect.
Guarding empty ships does not seem a useful role in that scenario.
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Old 10th Feb 2021, 16:54
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Originally Posted by Asturias56 View Post
WEBF - I struggle with the idea that any future conflict will involve convoys across the Atlantic - IF it stays non-nuclear any conflict in Europe will still only last a few weeks

This isn't 1940
I was thinking more of the reinforcements moving by sea across the Atlantic, or amphibious operations. See the scenario in the Fire and Ice paper from the Human Security Centre. The chapters 'The Modern Strategic Context' and 'A New NATO Maritime Strategy' are of particular interest. The NATO 'four thirties' plan is very dependent on crisis response shipping, with naval protection. There are RN personnel involved in planning for Exercise Steadfast Defender 21:

Across the Atlantic, nestled within the largest naval city in the world, is Allied Joint Force Command Norfolk, NATO’s newest operational command.

The command was created in response to NATO’s 2018 review and adaptation of its command structure that identified the Alliance’s need for a stronger linkage between Europe and North America, in response to increasing threats within the North Atlantic region.

Having achieved initial operational capability in September 2020 and programmed to reach full operational capability (FOC) at the end of 2021, JFC Norfolk is taking on a core-coordinating role in assuring the security of the Strategic Lines of Communication across the Euro-Atlantic area, through the Greenland-Iceland-UK gap and into the Arctic.

----

As a SHAPE-sponsored operational and tactical level live exercise, STDE21 will train and evaluate a wide range of NATO and national force elements. Focused on the reinforcement of continental Europe from North America, NATO will exercise its ability to secure the Strategic Lines of Communication which link our continents.

Originally Posted by etudiant
Australia is discovering that China can signal displeasure very strongly just by not buying stuff.
Given the ongoing industrial production shifts to Asia from the West, China will add the capacity to halt shipments of manufactured goods for even greater effect.
Guarding empty ships does not seem a useful role in that scenario.
Why would empty ships be sailing?

Last edited by WE Branch Fanatic; 10th Feb 2021 at 23:40.
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Old 10th Feb 2021, 22:01
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Originally Posted by WE Branch Fanatic View Post

As a SHAPE-sponsored operational and tactical level live exercise, STDE21 will train and evaluate a wide range of NATO and national force elements. Focused on the reinforcement of continental Europe from North America, NATO will exercise its ability to secure the Strategic Lines of Communication which link our continents.



Why would empty ships be sailing?
Was thinking that their cargo has been held up and not shipped from China....
Modern semiconductor electronics are largely made in Taiwan and Korea, with the US now providing less than half the output of either of those two. At the low end, China produces 10 times the steel tonnage annually the US does.
Just what technical superiority does NATO think it has or will have in another decade to offset massive industrial inferiority?
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Old 11th Feb 2021, 11:12
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Originally Posted by etudiant View Post
...... Just what technical superiority does NATO think it has or will have in another decade to offset massive industrial inferiority?
Good point. TBH, it seems a major shift towards "economic warfare" has been with us since before the end of the Cold War. Taking Russia, currently reading a fascinating book on the rise of Putin and the KGB since the end of the Soviet Union and how inter-twined Russia has become with the West commercially, using the West's propensity to put "profits before morals", to enable Russia to position itself so as to be able to hold others to economic (and, hence, political) ransom. The opening credits to "Have I Got News For You" had it nailed way back with the bit about the gas pipeline!!!! Nord Stream 2 is just the latest twist on a rather murky saga which has been running for decades. And gas is just one area. It sort of makes the usefulness of Aircraft Carriers a somewhat academic argument.....
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Old 12th Feb 2021, 07:53
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yes - I've read the book as aweel - everyone should

Places like the City of London are hand in glove with Putin. his mates, the FSB/SVR and Organised Crime........
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Old 20th Feb 2021, 17:40
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Just as I predicted, before the CSG21 deployment, HMS Queen Elizabeth and her aircraft and task group will undertake a mission of the greatest importance - both nationally and to the NATO alliance. This follows on from her participation in Exercise Joint Warrior. I imagine that this will be in conjunction with STDE21.

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Old 20th Feb 2021, 17:56
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Quite so.
For such a seemingly big unwieldy girl she cuts a fine figure dancing a jig to the twin pipes of Global Democracy and the Bean-Counters.
That's why she was laid down in the first place.
Now she has to earn her pay-dirt by lying back and thinking of England.

And she'll do a grand job.



Last edited by Auxtank; 20th Feb 2021 at 18:17.
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Old 22nd Feb 2021, 21:42
  #6076 (permalink)  
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Littoral Strike Ships

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/litt...e-light-again/

A concept image (shown below) designed to show how the ‘Future Commando Force’ will operate shows two ‘Littoral Strike Ships’ as well as ‘discrete shipping’ being used to land British forces.





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Old 23rd Feb 2021, 07:11
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looks like an "Argos" upgrade.................
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Old 23rd Feb 2021, 09:49
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...... of the "Point"-class Ro-Ro vessels.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Point-class_sealift_ship
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Old 23rd Feb 2021, 16:41
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I'd assume that they'd go back to the S Koreans who built the new tankers
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Old 23rd Feb 2021, 19:19
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Originally Posted by Asturias56 View Post
I'd assume that they'd go back to the S Koreans who built the new tankers
You'd assume wrongly. UK ships for UK yards is the new mantra. DSME got their fingers burned as well, they won't be playing with MoD again, any time soon.
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