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Future Carrier (Including Costs)

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Future Carrier (Including Costs)

Old 3rd Nov 2019, 21:48
  #5701 (permalink)  
 
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Peace, Engines...

We seem to be mostly in factual agreement. The interesting thing is that discussing "penalties" or "scar weight" in the A/B/C context depends on which version is considered as the baseline - but thinking about it some more, this may be misleading, since none of the versions is the baseline.

The key to understanding the aerodynamic, structural and propulsion elements of the F-35 design is that no aircraft in history, that I can think of, has had such diverse and competing requirements imposed on it, along with a battery of non-negotiable constraints.

t was much more than what the late George Muellner described as "three versions differing only in how they took off and landed". CV requirements meant (eventually) quad tails and either a large wing, or the ability to accommodate two wing sizes. STOVL mandated a single large engine, located close to the CG, along with minimal OEW. Compatibility with different ships imposed limits on span and length. LO demanded large internal volume, translating into a rather broad body and an unusual relationship of net to gross wing area, and was unforgiving regarding changes to the mold line - all versions had to have the same wing sweep.

It would all have been hard enough, even without the USAF's willingness to die on the barricades to protect sustained 9g. For what it's worth, I don't think any of the designs submitted in 1996 would have done any better than the F-35. The engineers did their best, but there was no elegant solution to the problem enshrined in the JORD.
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Old 3rd Nov 2019, 22:02
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Thanks for your reply Engines.
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Old 4th Nov 2019, 19:31
  #5703 (permalink)  
 
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Originally Posted by BEagle View Post
And very good it was too!
Much enjoyed, although rather sad to see the tribute at the end in memory of Nimali Amaratunga-Brearley, the young civilian engineer seen earlier in the programme testing the flight deck coating.

Jack
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Old 4th Nov 2019, 20:26
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Originally Posted by Union Jack View Post
Much enjoyed, although rather sad to see the tribute at the end in memory of Nimali Amaratunga-Brearley, the young civilian engineer seen earlier in the programme testing the flight deck coating.

Jack
indeed a good episode, but a rather unpleasant shock during the credits that the lady had died. A quick search on google implies it may have been cancer - what a very sad event.
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Old 4th Nov 2019, 20:36
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Originally Posted by Easy Street View Post
Also the drag of the door is less than it would appear because suction causes the airflow to curve down into the fan rather than impinge directly on the door.
Graphically illustrated in last-night's programme by the unfortunate small bird that was sucked down into the lift fan.

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Old 4th Nov 2019, 20:43
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Originally Posted by Video Mixdown View Post
Graphically illustrated in last-night's programme by the unfortunate small bird that was sucked down into the lift fan.
1. Close to shore increases small bird risks.
2. Deploy resident on-board Falcon and Handler?
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Old 10th Nov 2019, 17:48
  #5707 (permalink)  
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The third episode of the documentary is on tonight at 2000 on BBC 2, including the first SRVL landing.

Carriers are not all about jets. The CVS (Invincible class) was originally designed to operate nine or so ASW Sea Kings to protect task groups and convoys, to which the Sea Harrier was later added to deal with Bears providing long range guidance for submarine launched missiles. Later, post 2000 ir so, squadrons of six Marlins would embark.

Given the greater range and endurance, can they achieve the same level of coverage with six aircraft? Against a limited threat, perhaps three cabs an a towed array frigate (with extra Merlin) is enough? Or at least enough to protect the carrier (only)?


Even with a limited threat, perhaps a couple of SSKs, you would still want to use things such as helicopters with dipping sonar AND frigates with towed array. It is a carrier role - and wonder if any carriers will take part in next year's Exercise Defender 2020?

Back to the jets, this Corbett Paper makes the point that have carriers up to speed with having jets embarked, they need to be embarked regularly.
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Old 10th Nov 2019, 21:25
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Folks,

Loving this thread, as a mere enthusiast. Brought a question to mind, given the joint RN/RAF deployment of F35s planned.

Back in the Falklands, the RAF deployed Harriers onto the RN carriers...presumably this was something that was trained for in advance? Or was it concieved specifically to tackle the Argentines in 1982?
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Old 16th Nov 2019, 06:17
  #5709 (permalink)  
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https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/b...gned-5l97th9jb

Boost for shipyard as deal for five frigates is signed

The government has signed a £1.25 billion deal with a defence giant to build five Type 31e frigates at a Scottish shipyard.

A consortium led by Babcock beat two rival bids to build the cut-price warships, which are 140m long. The Ministry of Defence had set a ceiling of £250 million per ship, which critics initially decried as unrealistic. The new fleet of general purpose “budget” frigates are set to be delivered by 2028, with the first entering the water by 2023.

Questions were raised over the timing of the announcement during the election campaign. Announcements of a political nature are banned under purdah rules.

Boris Johnson has pledged to “bring shipbuilding home” and the deal will help to make the domestic industry viable. The “e” in the Type 31e’s name stands for “export” because the plan is for the ships to be sold overseas.

The firm said that the ships would be assembled at its Rosyth facility and involve supply chains throughout the country, in line with the UK’s shipbuilding strategy.

It is understood that the decision to sign the contract fell to the ministry’s permanent secretary, Sir Stephen Lovegrove, who in his capacity as the accounting officer made the decision to proceed on cost grounds.

Archie Bethel, chief executive of Babcock, said that the Arrowhead 140 design on which the Type 31es would be based was a “modern warship that will meet the maritime threats of today and tomorrow with British ingenuity and engineering at its core”.
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Old 16th Nov 2019, 08:29
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Well thank God for that. Let's hope they order more than 5 eventually - the RN needs these more than it needs the carriers TBH.

The great risk is that of creeping add-ons but if they can build them fast enough there won't be enough time for people to dream up some nice expensive modifications.
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Old 17th Nov 2019, 08:57
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Big splash in this weeks "Economist" with an oped and a 3 -4 page Briefing on Carriers in general and the USN v China in particular. You'll have to pay to buy the magazine and its pay-walled the website

Fairly balanced - points out the horrendous cost and the increase in defensive systems are pushing them further and further offshore and increasing the need for IFR in the USN/China case.

In general they see that (for everyone except the USN)

"The result of all this is that carriers will only be fully effective against military minnows. “Most of the time, nations aren’t in a high-end fight with a peer competitor,” says Mr Kaushal, “but are competing for influence in third states, perhaps a civil war like Syria.” China appreciates that its own carriers would not survive for long in a scrap with America—but they might come in handy for cowing an Asian neighbour into submission or bombarding irksome rebels on some African coast."
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Old 19th Nov 2019, 13:42
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Well thank God for that. Let's hope they order more than 5 eventually - the RN needs these more than it needs the carriers TBH.
It needs more BECAUSE of the carriers . . .
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Old 20th Nov 2019, 09:03
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That is true - and another issue much debated here over the last few years.

If you are not careful you have the whole of the RN sailing around in one bunch with a carrier in the middle. With only 2 carriers there is a risk they are so "iconic" (and expensive) the politicians won't risk them in harm's way at all - and, like the Argentinian Navy, you finish up with them parked at home for safety.
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Old 20th Nov 2019, 13:59
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BRITAIN’S LARGEST WARSHIP VISITS ANNAPOLIS

Originally Posted by Chesapeake Bay Magazine 20 Nov 2019
There’s something unusual anchored in Annapolis this week: a British Royal Navy aircraft carrier, the largest and most powerful warship the UK has ever had. And it created quite a buzz traveling up the Bay...

This is the first time a Royal Navy ship has officially visited Annapolis in more than 60 years, since the HMS Bigbury was at the port. There have been no other Royal Navy visits in the past century. While in town, the carrier will host international leaders to plan cooperative defense strategies...

While Queen Elizabeth is anchored off Annapolis, it will host a Defence and Security Trade exhibition Wednesday, and on Thursday, the Atlantic Future Forum (AFF). The AFF brings together US and UK military, government, and private industry leaders to discuss Artificial Intelligence, technology, and robotics, known as the “fourth industrial revolution"...
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Old 20th Nov 2019, 17:34
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Pity Prince Andrew in't available..............
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Old 20th Nov 2019, 23:44
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Due to the UK's slow purchase rate of F-35Bs, in the interim this former RM chap will be undertaking CAS missions using a hand held minigun !

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Old 21st Nov 2019, 02:32
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Originally Posted by NWSRG View Post
Folks,

Loving this thread, as a mere enthusiast. Brought a question to mind, given the joint RN/RAF deployment of F35s planned.

Back in the Falklands, the RAF deployed Harriers onto the RN carriers...presumably this was something that was trained for in advance? Or was it concieved specifically to tackle the Argentines in 1982?
There had been a few trials run using RAF Harriers on the old Ark Royal, but there was no plan for RAF Harriers to go to war embarked on carriers - it was an answer to a 'what happens if we start losing Sea Harriers?' question during the early planning stages of Corporate. The answer was to fit the GR3 with AIM-9 and use the GR3 as an attrition reserve. Although the USMC AV-8A/C carrier AIM-9, these had to be integrated onto the RAF Harriers at short notice, a further hint that there was no 'cunning plan' for the Harriers to operate alongside the SHARs.

Training for the GR3s, was carried out in the UK while the Task Force headed south, and the GR3s then flew out to Ascension and thence onto Atlantic Conveyor. After a 12-day trip on that ship, they flew off to Hermes, with six being aboard by 20 May 1982. The planning scenario in which the GR3s would be used alongside the SHAR for air defence after losses to the SHAR force reached a certain level didn't transpire, so the GR3s were used in their normal role.
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Old 21st Nov 2019, 04:54
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It crosses my mind that the possibility of a couple or more of these units and a few well trained marines embarked could provide some very useful capability. (RAS/L, RAS/S etc.)
I am aware that this may be associated with the WESTLANT show and tell, but have any trials occurred?

IG
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Old 21st Nov 2019, 09:50
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QNLZ has started earning her keep with a bit of soft power:

U.S., U.K., Japan Navies Reaffirm Commitment to Increased Cooperation

Originally Posted by US Navy website 20 Nov 2019
ANNAPOLIS, Md. (NNS) -- Chief of Naval Operations (CNO) Adm. Mike Gilday joined First Sea Lord, United Kingdom Royal Navy Adm. Tony Radakin and Chief of Staff of the Japan Maritime Self-Defence Force Adm. Hiroshi Yamamura for a trilateral maritime discussion onboard HMS Queen Elizabeth (R08) anchored outside Annapolis, Nov. 20. During the meeting, the three leaders signed a trilateral cooperation agreement reaffirming their commitment to increased collaboration and cooperation...

Chief of Maritime Staff Adm. Hiroshi Yamamura, left, First Sea Lord Adm. Tony Radakin, and
Chief of Naval Operations (CNO) Adm. Mike Gilday sign a Trilateral Head of Navy Joint Statement
aboard the Royal Navy aircraft carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth (R08).
(U.S. Navy photo by Mass Communication Specialist 1st Class Raymond D. Diaz III/Released)

Last edited by FODPlod; 21st Nov 2019 at 10:13.
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Old 24th Nov 2019, 10:55
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Still not seen any evidence of SVRL on this deployment.
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