Future Carrier (Including Costs)
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Glad Rag, friend....I am talking about a rationale in principle for maintaining sufficient strength to support the civil powers if and when they should ever be need. That said, with what is coming in years ahead, there is more than enough reason to be concerned that greater levels of civil unrest are feasible....after all, we have not been immune in years gone by, never mind what has happened in part of the Kingdom in the last 40 years.
I will say no more than that
As for the MASC Merlin.....shame its not got an integrated radar under the fuselage?? Once there was a signifcant UK research prog to deliver radar capability from the main blades...as usual it was canned after early succcess...it was mostly pre-1982 and the re-emergence of the on-board AEW role...might have been a much better performer and far more graceful......but then lets hope there's enough cash left for any MASC solution when the time comes.
Cheers
I will say no more than that
As for the MASC Merlin.....shame its not got an integrated radar under the fuselage?? Once there was a signifcant UK research prog to deliver radar capability from the main blades...as usual it was canned after early succcess...it was mostly pre-1982 and the re-emergence of the on-board AEW role...might have been a much better performer and far more graceful......but then lets hope there's enough cash left for any MASC solution when the time comes.
Cheers
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@ Leon J
Hmmm merlin 4572m=15,000ft, osprey 27,000ft(
), hawkeye 37,000ft quoted service ceilings
Why do we ALWAYS get the BEST operators and then lumber them with the LEAST performing kit?
What is going to be the greatest (military) threat to our fleet and what will be the best way to give maximum warning? height/altitude of the radar set for starters closely followed by performance of on-board number crunching systems, only one of the three examples is proven in this field.
Come to think of it haven't the RN gone about this in completely the wrong manner?
Shouldn't they be making the best case for protecting the asset (UK PLC investment) before splashing 100 of millions of £ on offensive systems???
Just a thought.
), hawkeye 37,000ft quoted service ceilingsWhy do we ALWAYS get the BEST operators and then lumber them with the LEAST performing kit?
What is going to be the greatest (military) threat to our fleet and what will be the best way to give maximum warning? height/altitude of the radar set for starters closely followed by performance of on-board number crunching systems, only one of the three examples is proven in this field.
Come to think of it haven't the RN gone about this in completely the wrong manner?
Shouldn't they be making the best case for protecting the asset (UK PLC investment) before splashing 100 of millions of £ on offensive systems???
Just a thought.
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GR - couldn't agree more.....and if the catapult is put on, then Hawkeye has to be the answer!
Sadly, for what I understand, its inevitably more about cost of ownership rather than best performance. Although I've always been a fan of V22 - its still regraded as too expensive and still risky.
On the other hand the performance of the radar is reasonable, and with our expertise, "we" will get more out of it than many would expect.
In the end....all that investment and capability still needs the optimum protection....as the Falklands showed - the loss of a carrier would not only have been militarily difficult to cope with (and we had 3 in those days!) , but politically would probably ended the war for us.
Sadly, for what I understand, its inevitably more about cost of ownership rather than best performance. Although I've always been a fan of V22 - its still regraded as too expensive and still risky.
On the other hand the performance of the radar is reasonable, and with our expertise, "we" will get more out of it than many would expect.
In the end....all that investment and capability still needs the optimum protection....as the Falklands showed - the loss of a carrier would not only have been militarily difficult to cope with (and we had 3 in those days!) , but politically would probably ended the war for us.
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all that investment and capability still needs the optimum protection....as the Falklands showed - the loss of a carrier would not only have been militarily difficult to cope with (and we had 3 in those days!) , but politically would probably ended the war for us.
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Thats absolutley accurate in the immediate combat context...but I had made the assumption that Lusty would have been brought forward even quicker ( than she was in the immediate aftermath) were we to have lost either H or Inv. I will ignore the oft spoke of US offer of a carrier or the potential restoration of Bulwark/Albion - I can't recall which of the 2 it was).
Cheers
Cheers
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We didn't have three carriers during the Falklands War, we had two: Invincible and Hermes. Illustrious and Ark Royal did not enter service until after the Falklands War.
I think you'll find that Lusty was still on the Tyne (or at least in UK waters) when Hermes returned to Pompey in June 82. Lusty then relieved Invincible to return in September - the three were never simultaneously in Southlant, let alone the TEZ. During the air war (May-June), loss of one (particularly Hermes) would have meant Endex.
As far as alternates went, Rusty B had been so heavily stripped she was a non-starter and the oft-quoted US carriers were Essexes the last of which (Oriskany) had gone to reserve in 73.......
As far as alternates went, Rusty B had been so heavily stripped she was a non-starter and the oft-quoted US carriers were Essexes the last of which (Oriskany) had gone to reserve in 73.......
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Not entirely true, Not_a_boffin...
There was USS Lexington AVT-16... which had been the USN's training carrier since 29 December 1962, and which served in that role until her decommissioning on 8 November 1991.
So it is possible (however unlikely) that Ronnie Raygun was proposing loaning "Lady Lex" to the RN.
And yes, she was fully operational, since her training duties were to steam out from NAS Pensacola Florida into the Gulf of Mexico to make big circles in the water, and let the fledgling flyboys bounce birds off her deck (with the occasional "catch a wire and get thrown off the bow" joy-ride thrown in).
At that time, those birds were TA-4F Skyhawks and T-2 Buckeyes... both jet-powered small planes.
I'm sure Harriers & Gannets (if any AEW birds could be scrounged up) as well as Wessexs, Sea Kings, Chinooks, etc. would work fine off her deck, as it was nice and spacious. Of course, the Harriers would need to be real careful just where they set down, as most of her flight deck still had its wood covering.
There was USS Lexington AVT-16... which had been the USN's training carrier since 29 December 1962, and which served in that role until her decommissioning on 8 November 1991.
So it is possible (however unlikely) that Ronnie Raygun was proposing loaning "Lady Lex" to the RN.
And yes, she was fully operational, since her training duties were to steam out from NAS Pensacola Florida into the Gulf of Mexico to make big circles in the water, and let the fledgling flyboys bounce birds off her deck (with the occasional "catch a wire and get thrown off the bow" joy-ride thrown in).
At that time, those birds were TA-4F Skyhawks and T-2 Buckeyes... both jet-powered small planes.
I'm sure Harriers & Gannets (if any AEW birds could be scrounged up) as well as Wessexs, Sea Kings, Chinooks, etc. would work fine off her deck, as it was nice and spacious. Of course, the Harriers would need to be real careful just where they set down, as most of her flight deck still had its wood covering.
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You are correct. hermes left early as the ship was broke. Illustrious sailed on 4th August and relieved Invincible at the end of August. And so for about 18 hours both Invincible and Lusty were in the TEZ at the same time. For Invincible, the air war ended at 3.12pm on 27th August when the pipe was made... "Fall out from Flying stations". Invincible had continuously been at Flying stations since 4th April.
Do a Hover - it avoids G
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the Harriers would need to be real careful just where they set down, as most of her flight deck still had its wood covering.
Re temp just think for a moment - the Harrier stands on rubber tyres. That must tell you something.
When a Harrier was taken to a USMC ship for the first time the troops retreated into the island for fear of being blown off their feet into the netting. After I walked through the exhaust of a chained down Harrier being run nozzles aft at full throttle quite close to the tail (albeit leaning into the wind a bit) the deck guys thereafter stood around quite close to the action. I asked one bloke with stripes up his whole arm how he chose his distance from a VL (about 5-10 feet off the wingtip) he replied "So I don't think he will hit me"
BTW the Spanish Navy aircraft carrier Dedalo had a planked wooden deck. The gaps between the planks were sealed from water ingress using a tar kettle. Sometimes gaps would appear and the troops were made to use a blowtorch to soften the pitch and improve the seal. They hated the job. After I did a couple of days ops (with a bit of judicious taxying with the nozzles down) all the seals were perfect and I was their hero.
Dedalo deck:
Silverstone 1992 (the year nigel mansell won, and the last year of the Sharks). Paul S-S was the SHAR display, and took advice from the other pilot (a certain J*ck Lon*on, RIP) as to whether a short take off departure from the short runway on the Saturday would be OK. J reassured him that it would. The take off stripped the entire runway of its tarmac, in great slabs, and deposited most of it on the race track, I know, I watched it happen!!
Interestingly, the Silverstone management managed to find from somewhere, a road laying machine, what's more they managed to get it through the traffic jams the evening before race day, work through the night, and by morning the short runway was fully repaired, as were those sections of the race track that were trashed.
Point being that the Harrier downwash (rotary expression) on 30 nozzle can have a most undesirable effect on the world around it!
Interestingly, the Silverstone management managed to find from somewhere, a road laying machine, what's more they managed to get it through the traffic jams the evening before race day, work through the night, and by morning the short runway was fully repaired, as were those sections of the race track that were trashed.
Point being that the Harrier downwash (rotary expression) on 30 nozzle can have a most undesirable effect on the world around it!
Do a Hover - it avoids G
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That sort of event did occur if there were cracks in the surface which allowed the exhaust to penetrate along below a surface layer and build up a hovercraft effect.
Five pounds per sq in (a nothing pressure such as one might find remaining in an apparently flat tyre) generates a 144 x 5 lb lift force on a single sq ft! So a slab of 3 sq ft would sometimes appear to float up off the ground like a leaf unless it weighed over a ton! In the 60s and early 70s we learned several of these type lessons the hard way.
I am a tad surprised the mechanism was not appreciated by people in the 90s.
Five pounds per sq in (a nothing pressure such as one might find remaining in an apparently flat tyre) generates a 144 x 5 lb lift force on a single sq ft! So a slab of 3 sq ft would sometimes appear to float up off the ground like a leaf unless it weighed over a ton! In the 60s and early 70s we learned several of these type lessons the hard way.
I am a tad surprised the mechanism was not appreciated by people in the 90s.
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I had forgotten that Dedalo (ex-USS Cabot) had not gotten a metal covering for the landing/take-off areas when she started operating Matadors (AV-8A).
So, as long as all the planks were securely bolted down, Lex would do fine. Nice to hear.
So, as long as all the planks were securely bolted down, Lex would do fine. Nice to hear.
Thread Starter
Two Carriers - Two Years On
It was on 3 July 2008 when Baroness Taylor, then Minister for Defence Equipment and Support, signed contracts with industry to build the two Queen Elizabeth class aircraft carriers.
Now just two years later, manufacture is well underway with work taking place at six UK shipyards – Babcock at Appledore and Rosyth, BAES Surface Ships (BAES-SS) at Govan, Portsmouth and A&P Tyne and Cammell Laird at Birkenhead.
It is anticipated that work on the ships will create or sustain between 7,000 and 8,000 jobs at the Tier 1 shipyards in Glasgow, Rosyth, Portsmouth and Devon, with another 2-3,000 jobs in the supply chain.
Many major milestones have been achieved in the last two years, including start of construction at Appledore in late 2008, first cutting of steel, placement of more than 100 material and services sub-contracts worth £1.2 billion, delivery of large equipment items such as propellers, diesel generators and anchors, construction of the dock at Rosyth where the ships will finally be assembled, and subsequent delivery of blocks as they are completed. Today, more than 1.2 million components fill the warehouse for distribution during the build phase.
This is good news. Cammell Laird started their involvement started their involvement this week - see here.
The nationwide programme to build the Royal Navy’s new Queen Elizabeth class aircraft carriers has passed another milestone as construction on the first ship, the Queen Elizabeth, began on the Mersey today.
Minister for International Security Strategy Gerald Howarth started the crane that laid the first of the steel plates for the ship’s giant flight deck.
Birkenhead company Cammell Laird is the final shipyard in the programme to begin construction, and will build two of the sections that will make up the ship’s flight deck. Together they will weigh in at 7,500 tonnes – more than a Royal Navy Type 45 destroyer. The work is worth £44 million to Cammell Laird and will provide a significant number of jobs in the area, boosting the local economy.
As he toured the yard, the Minister met some of the 1,200 strong workforce involved in the project - including some of the 72 apprentices. He said:
“Aircraft Carriers represent a national asset for the UK. Power and versatility make them a formidable warfighting tool, and able to fulfil a wide range of requirements in an increasingly diverse and changing global Defence landscape. The workers I have met here today are rightly proud to be a part of it, and it’s particularly exciting to see so many young apprentices learning their trade on such a prestigious project.”
The Aircraft Carrier Alliance now has a website: Aircraft Carrier Alliance
I would point out that CVF work is helping our industrial capabilities, maintaining and developing skills and keeping facilities alive. This has wider economic benefits for Britain as a whole. In my part of the world, the shipyard at Appledore has been saved by the actions of what was then DML (now Babcock). Working on CVF work has kept the yard going, and helped build and and retain key skills. Now they have an export order, two patrol vessels for the Irish Navy.
Without the actions to keep the yard going, and the generation and regeneration of skills and capabilities, would they have got the Irish order? If not, would the work have gone to another UK yard? I think not. I am sure that there are many other examples.
One more thing: Converteam UK is developing a catapault system in case F35B gets axed.
It was on 3 July 2008 when Baroness Taylor, then Minister for Defence Equipment and Support, signed contracts with industry to build the two Queen Elizabeth class aircraft carriers.
Now just two years later, manufacture is well underway with work taking place at six UK shipyards – Babcock at Appledore and Rosyth, BAES Surface Ships (BAES-SS) at Govan, Portsmouth and A&P Tyne and Cammell Laird at Birkenhead.
It is anticipated that work on the ships will create or sustain between 7,000 and 8,000 jobs at the Tier 1 shipyards in Glasgow, Rosyth, Portsmouth and Devon, with another 2-3,000 jobs in the supply chain.
Many major milestones have been achieved in the last two years, including start of construction at Appledore in late 2008, first cutting of steel, placement of more than 100 material and services sub-contracts worth £1.2 billion, delivery of large equipment items such as propellers, diesel generators and anchors, construction of the dock at Rosyth where the ships will finally be assembled, and subsequent delivery of blocks as they are completed. Today, more than 1.2 million components fill the warehouse for distribution during the build phase.
This is good news. Cammell Laird started their involvement started their involvement this week - see here.
The nationwide programme to build the Royal Navy’s new Queen Elizabeth class aircraft carriers has passed another milestone as construction on the first ship, the Queen Elizabeth, began on the Mersey today.
Minister for International Security Strategy Gerald Howarth started the crane that laid the first of the steel plates for the ship’s giant flight deck.
Birkenhead company Cammell Laird is the final shipyard in the programme to begin construction, and will build two of the sections that will make up the ship’s flight deck. Together they will weigh in at 7,500 tonnes – more than a Royal Navy Type 45 destroyer. The work is worth £44 million to Cammell Laird and will provide a significant number of jobs in the area, boosting the local economy.
As he toured the yard, the Minister met some of the 1,200 strong workforce involved in the project - including some of the 72 apprentices. He said:
“Aircraft Carriers represent a national asset for the UK. Power and versatility make them a formidable warfighting tool, and able to fulfil a wide range of requirements in an increasingly diverse and changing global Defence landscape. The workers I have met here today are rightly proud to be a part of it, and it’s particularly exciting to see so many young apprentices learning their trade on such a prestigious project.”
The Aircraft Carrier Alliance now has a website: Aircraft Carrier Alliance
I would point out that CVF work is helping our industrial capabilities, maintaining and developing skills and keeping facilities alive. This has wider economic benefits for Britain as a whole. In my part of the world, the shipyard at Appledore has been saved by the actions of what was then DML (now Babcock). Working on CVF work has kept the yard going, and helped build and and retain key skills. Now they have an export order, two patrol vessels for the Irish Navy.
Without the actions to keep the yard going, and the generation and regeneration of skills and capabilities, would they have got the Irish order? If not, would the work have gone to another UK yard? I think not. I am sure that there are many other examples.
One more thing: Converteam UK is developing a catapault system in case F35B gets axed.
Last edited by WE Branch Fanatic; 31st Jul 2010 at 14:11.
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Without the actions to keep the yard going, and the generation and regeneration of skills and capabilities, would they have got the Irish order? If not, would the work have gone to another UK yard?
More bang for your buck
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According to the Sunday Times, there is now serious discussion about abandoning the JSF options and buying the much cheaper Super Hornet.