Future Carrier (Including Costs)
There is a brief article in today's Observer that says one cost saving "option" for the MOD (PR10?) is to complete both of the new carriers, to avoid penalty clauses, and then sell one of them to India...
I think a lot of such possible "options" are going to be rumoured in the next few months!
I think a lot of such possible "options" are going to be rumoured in the next few months!
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"I think a lot of such possible "options" are going to be rumoured in the next few months!"
Yes and they all should be taken with a huge pinch of salt! Everyone should set their BS deflectors to double front for the next few months!
Yes and they all should be taken with a huge pinch of salt! Everyone should set their BS deflectors to double front for the next few months!
Carrier may be sold to India
Royal Navy aircraft carrier may be sold to India | Business | guardian.co.uk
One of the Royal Navy's new £2bn aircraft carriers could be sold off under government cost-cutting plans, the Guardian has learned.
It is understood that India has recently lodged a firm expression of interest to buy one of the two state-of-the-art 65,000 tonne carriers, which are still being built by BAE Systems in the UK....
One of the Royal Navy's new £2bn aircraft carriers could be sold off under government cost-cutting plans, the Guardian has learned.
It is understood that India has recently lodged a firm expression of interest to buy one of the two state-of-the-art 65,000 tonne carriers, which are still being built by BAE Systems in the UK....
up in a whorehouse. 
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ORAC. The measurement unit of the Double Decker Bus could become a new Defence Standard, along with Nelson's Columns and Blue Whales. Ministry of Defence | Defence News | Equipment and Logistics | Astute begins sea trials
Measuring nearly one hundred metres from bow to stern, Astute is longer than ten London buses and, when fully stored, will displace 7,800 tonnes of sea water, equivalent to 65 blue whales
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If India can afford the price of one then maybe we shouldn't be giving them £800 million in aid (08-09), or maybe they should spend their own money on reducing poverty rather than acquiring expensive military equipment?
Just a thought.....
Just a thought.....
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
if they're willing to buy one, with maybe an option on a second, maybe it would reduce the cost to where we could afford to two anyway, with the building/cost spread out over a few more years.
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Gash Buzz?
Alternatively this could be utter rumour-mongering by the Guardian - post the rubbish article in the Telegraph about "Britain only getting Strike Carrier". Or read that as one carrier roled LPH (not exactly tricky, they are designed to) and one roled as a Strike Carrier. Or do both. At the same time. They are quite big.
Suspicion breeds confidence
Thoughts from Lewis Page with some sense in it.
Latest Navy carrier madness: 'Sell 'em to India' ? The Register
Latest Navy carrier madness: 'Sell 'em to India' ? The Register
This article was in the Observer on Sunday, which, whether or not it is the first time it cropped up, would certainly appear to predate the Guardian article from Monday.
I mentioned it on the "future carrier" thread, which is where I would have thought it is most appropriate, since it is discussing the sale of one of the "future carriers".....
Still, what do I know.....??
I mentioned it on the "future carrier" thread, which is where I would have thought it is most appropriate, since it is discussing the sale of one of the "future carriers".....
Still, what do I know.....??
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
V-22 Osprey, stealth jumpjet 'need refrigerated landing pads'
Hover-ships' hot exhaust melting decks of US warships
It's now official. The new generation of high-tech hovering aircraft - namely the famous V-22 "Osprey" tiltrotor and the upcoming F-35B supersonic stealth jump-jet - have an unforeseen flaw. Their exhaust downwash is so hot as to melt the flight decks of US warships, leading Pentagon boffins to look into refrigerated landing pads.
Stories of buckled flight decks caused by Osprey exhaust have been circulating for a while, but confirmation that the issue is seen as serious comes with the issue of a military request for proposals yesterday for "thermal management systems (TMS) for aircraft landing decks".
The proposal makes it clear that the Osprey - which is now in active combat service with the US Marines following a painful twenty-year gestation - has already been fingered as a deck-damaging craft. The F-35B stealth jumpjet, which has just commenced hover flight testing, is also expected to be fielded soon by the Marines, and could be an even worse pad-melter.
According to the request:
The deployment of the MV-22 Osprey has resulted in ship flight deck buckling that has been attributed to the excessive heat impact from engine exhaust plumes. Navy studies have indicated that repeated deck buckling will likely cause deck failure before planned ship life. With the upcoming deployment of the F-35B Short Take Off and Vertical Landing (STOVL) Joint Strike Fighter (JSF), it is anticipated that the engine exhaust plumes may have a more severe thermo-mechanical impact on the non-skid surface and flight deck structure of ships. Currently, there are no available strategies to mitigate deck buckling and thermal-mechanical deck failure other than heavy structural modifications.
The jarheads will want to operate their new machines from their existing helicopter-carrier amphibious assault vessels, which can't practically be torn apart and refitted with massively reinforced upper decks as this would be likely to make them capsize. Similarly it would be extremely difficult to refrigerate the whole deck from beneath.
Hence the Marines would like someone to invent "a system that can be installed on top of the existing decks", capable of resisting the hot breath of the F-35B and less than one inch thick. It should also, of course, be tough enough not to suffer any damage from the aircraft landing on it. This miracle fridge-sheet assembly should be covered with "thermally stable non-skid" finish - this latter perhaps incorporating "amorphous metal coatings".
For help in the project, the Marines have of course turned to DARPA - really the only people to call when the exhaust of your super-advanced hovership requires a refrigerated landing pad, we'd suggest.
The full solicitation can be read in pdf here.
Hover-ships' hot exhaust melting decks of US warships
It's now official. The new generation of high-tech hovering aircraft - namely the famous V-22 "Osprey" tiltrotor and the upcoming F-35B supersonic stealth jump-jet - have an unforeseen flaw. Their exhaust downwash is so hot as to melt the flight decks of US warships, leading Pentagon boffins to look into refrigerated landing pads.
Stories of buckled flight decks caused by Osprey exhaust have been circulating for a while, but confirmation that the issue is seen as serious comes with the issue of a military request for proposals yesterday for "thermal management systems (TMS) for aircraft landing decks".
The proposal makes it clear that the Osprey - which is now in active combat service with the US Marines following a painful twenty-year gestation - has already been fingered as a deck-damaging craft. The F-35B stealth jumpjet, which has just commenced hover flight testing, is also expected to be fielded soon by the Marines, and could be an even worse pad-melter.
According to the request:
The deployment of the MV-22 Osprey has resulted in ship flight deck buckling that has been attributed to the excessive heat impact from engine exhaust plumes. Navy studies have indicated that repeated deck buckling will likely cause deck failure before planned ship life. With the upcoming deployment of the F-35B Short Take Off and Vertical Landing (STOVL) Joint Strike Fighter (JSF), it is anticipated that the engine exhaust plumes may have a more severe thermo-mechanical impact on the non-skid surface and flight deck structure of ships. Currently, there are no available strategies to mitigate deck buckling and thermal-mechanical deck failure other than heavy structural modifications.
The jarheads will want to operate their new machines from their existing helicopter-carrier amphibious assault vessels, which can't practically be torn apart and refitted with massively reinforced upper decks as this would be likely to make them capsize. Similarly it would be extremely difficult to refrigerate the whole deck from beneath.
Hence the Marines would like someone to invent "a system that can be installed on top of the existing decks", capable of resisting the hot breath of the F-35B and less than one inch thick. It should also, of course, be tough enough not to suffer any damage from the aircraft landing on it. This miracle fridge-sheet assembly should be covered with "thermally stable non-skid" finish - this latter perhaps incorporating "amorphous metal coatings".
For help in the project, the Marines have of course turned to DARPA - really the only people to call when the exhaust of your super-advanced hovership requires a refrigerated landing pad, we'd suggest.
The full solicitation can be read in pdf here.
More here: Hot Hot Hot
One would hope, given the long UK background in STOVL, that Liz and Chuck have been designed from the outset to tolerate the heat and pounding from the JSF exhaust. Paging Mr Boffin, Mr Boffin to the thread please.
One would hope, given the long UK background in STOVL, that Liz and Chuck have been designed from the outset to tolerate the heat and pounding from the JSF exhaust. Paging Mr Boffin, Mr Boffin to the thread please.
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Splendid
Let's spend a shed load more on a workaround for a problem that has been built into the design of the 22 & the 35.
Joined up thinking?
Waahhhh!
(Whilst not re-heating the RR Pegasus with the 4 nozzles and the 'puffers' at the cardinal points is such a clever and innovative design)
Joined up thinking?
Waahhhh!
(Whilst not re-heating the RR Pegasus with the 4 nozzles and the 'puffers' at the cardinal points is such a clever and innovative design)
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Deterrent cannot be guaranteed with three subs, and carrier rumours false says Navy chief
Michael Evans, Defence Editor
The Royal Navy will only be able to "guarantee" continuous deterrent patrols with Trident ballistic-missile submarines if the Government agrees to keep four boats, the head of the Royal Navy told The Times yesterday.
It would be possible to get by with three submarines, provided the Government was prepared to risk breaking the 24-hour, 365-day patrol cycle that had been maintained for 41 years. Admiral Sir Mark Stanhope said that Gordon Brown had posed a perfectly legitimate question when, in planning for Trident's replacement, he asked the Navy to study whether the nuclear deterrent patrols could be fulfilled with three boats.
The Government announced in 2006 that it planned to replace the four-boat ballistic-missile Vanguard class boats with a new submarine system and an upgraded Trident being developed in the US. The programme, with four new boats, would cost £20 billion, and the first submarine has to be ready for service in 2024.
Admiral Stanhope said that in response to the Prime Minister's question, posed this year, the Royal Navy was examining whether it would be feasible to rely on three submarines. At any one time one of the boats would be in refit and another would be coming out of or preparing for refit, leaving just one submarine available for operational service, he warned.
'We can see no case for the cancellation of Trident by any future government'
"If there were to be a major incident on board, such as a fire, this could cause the continuous patrol cycle to be broken," Admiral Stanhope said.
The First Sea Lord and the other two Service chiefs will be playing a significant role in the defence review to take place after the general election, and work is already under way on the broad objectives.
Air Chief Marshal Sir Jock Stirrup, the Chief of the Defence Staff, has told the Ministry of Defence staff that "support for operations in Afghanistan is now the main effort for defence".
While agreeing that Afghanistan had to take priority, Admiral Stanhope warned that it should not be the focus of all planning. "When Afghanistan is consigned to the history books there will still be a whole lot of different issues in the future which we will have to deal with, such as the security aspects arising from climate change and energy supplies, and 95 per cent of Britain's trade goes by sea," he said. Britain also had 14 dependent territories that required security guarantees.
Conscious of the different requirements of the three Services, he said his fellow chiefs agreed that the building of two large aircraft carriers would have multiple uses for the future, although, he admitted, "resources are going to be extremely tight".
If Britain wished to retain an interventionist role in the world, the carriers, which he said would be 64,000 tonnes, would provide a platform for ground-attack aircraft, helicopters, air defence assets and unmanned aerial vehicles (reconnaissance drones). They would also have hospital facilities.
Admiral Stanhope acknowledged that the Army and the RAF might have slightly different priorities when limited resources were shared out.
The Government, he said, was committed to building two aircraft carriers, and it made little sense to start talking about scaling them down to smaller ships. He dismissed a report that one of the carriers might be switched to a helicopter carrier, instead of having the Joint Strike Fighter F35, the replacement for Harriers. "We can put more helicopters on the platform if we want but we will not be converting one of the 64,000-tonne carriers into a helicopter carrier," he said.
The admiral said that the £4 billion carrier programme involved 10,000 workers and 57 British companies. He also pointed out that a considerable amount (about £1 billion) had already been spent on the two ships which will be called HMS Queen Elizabeth and HMS Prince of Wales. The two carriers which would be around for 40 years, represented "a good investment".
He also underlined the multiple roles to be played by the fleet of Astute class nuclear-powered submarines, the first of which set sail yesterday from Barrow-in-Furness for sea trials.
Admiral Stanhope regretted that the Astute programme was four years late, but he said this was because Britain had stopped building submarines for a period, and the skills had had to be rediscovered.
Astute decision
• The Royal Navy is to be given seven Astute-class submarines, although the defence review next year might lead to a scaling back of this capability. The Navy was initially promised eight vessels
• Measuring nearly 328ft (100m) from bow to stern, HMS Astute is longer than ten London buses, and will be able to circumnavigate the globe while submerged
• Two aircraft carriers cost £4 billion. Four new Trident subs plus missiles costs £20 billion
• Navy chiefs get upset when the campaign in Afghanistan is described as an army operation: 3 Commando Brigade Royal Marines, part of the Royal Navy, has served two six-month tours
Source: Times database
http://www.timesonline.co...ws/uk/article6920910.ece
Michael Evans, Defence Editor
The Royal Navy will only be able to "guarantee" continuous deterrent patrols with Trident ballistic-missile submarines if the Government agrees to keep four boats, the head of the Royal Navy told The Times yesterday.
It would be possible to get by with three submarines, provided the Government was prepared to risk breaking the 24-hour, 365-day patrol cycle that had been maintained for 41 years. Admiral Sir Mark Stanhope said that Gordon Brown had posed a perfectly legitimate question when, in planning for Trident's replacement, he asked the Navy to study whether the nuclear deterrent patrols could be fulfilled with three boats.
The Government announced in 2006 that it planned to replace the four-boat ballistic-missile Vanguard class boats with a new submarine system and an upgraded Trident being developed in the US. The programme, with four new boats, would cost £20 billion, and the first submarine has to be ready for service in 2024.
Admiral Stanhope said that in response to the Prime Minister's question, posed this year, the Royal Navy was examining whether it would be feasible to rely on three submarines. At any one time one of the boats would be in refit and another would be coming out of or preparing for refit, leaving just one submarine available for operational service, he warned.
'We can see no case for the cancellation of Trident by any future government'
"If there were to be a major incident on board, such as a fire, this could cause the continuous patrol cycle to be broken," Admiral Stanhope said.
The First Sea Lord and the other two Service chiefs will be playing a significant role in the defence review to take place after the general election, and work is already under way on the broad objectives.
Air Chief Marshal Sir Jock Stirrup, the Chief of the Defence Staff, has told the Ministry of Defence staff that "support for operations in Afghanistan is now the main effort for defence".
While agreeing that Afghanistan had to take priority, Admiral Stanhope warned that it should not be the focus of all planning. "When Afghanistan is consigned to the history books there will still be a whole lot of different issues in the future which we will have to deal with, such as the security aspects arising from climate change and energy supplies, and 95 per cent of Britain's trade goes by sea," he said. Britain also had 14 dependent territories that required security guarantees.
Conscious of the different requirements of the three Services, he said his fellow chiefs agreed that the building of two large aircraft carriers would have multiple uses for the future, although, he admitted, "resources are going to be extremely tight".
If Britain wished to retain an interventionist role in the world, the carriers, which he said would be 64,000 tonnes, would provide a platform for ground-attack aircraft, helicopters, air defence assets and unmanned aerial vehicles (reconnaissance drones). They would also have hospital facilities.
Admiral Stanhope acknowledged that the Army and the RAF might have slightly different priorities when limited resources were shared out.
The Government, he said, was committed to building two aircraft carriers, and it made little sense to start talking about scaling them down to smaller ships. He dismissed a report that one of the carriers might be switched to a helicopter carrier, instead of having the Joint Strike Fighter F35, the replacement for Harriers. "We can put more helicopters on the platform if we want but we will not be converting one of the 64,000-tonne carriers into a helicopter carrier," he said.
The admiral said that the £4 billion carrier programme involved 10,000 workers and 57 British companies. He also pointed out that a considerable amount (about £1 billion) had already been spent on the two ships which will be called HMS Queen Elizabeth and HMS Prince of Wales. The two carriers which would be around for 40 years, represented "a good investment".
He also underlined the multiple roles to be played by the fleet of Astute class nuclear-powered submarines, the first of which set sail yesterday from Barrow-in-Furness for sea trials.
Admiral Stanhope regretted that the Astute programme was four years late, but he said this was because Britain had stopped building submarines for a period, and the skills had had to be rediscovered.
Astute decision
• The Royal Navy is to be given seven Astute-class submarines, although the defence review next year might lead to a scaling back of this capability. The Navy was initially promised eight vessels
• Measuring nearly 328ft (100m) from bow to stern, HMS Astute is longer than ten London buses, and will be able to circumnavigate the globe while submerged
• Two aircraft carriers cost £4 billion. Four new Trident subs plus missiles costs £20 billion
• Navy chiefs get upset when the campaign in Afghanistan is described as an army operation: 3 Commando Brigade Royal Marines, part of the Royal Navy, has served two six-month tours
Source: Times database
http://www.timesonline.co...ws/uk/article6920910.ece
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Navy Lakehurst to test new catapult
LAKEHURST — The Navy's next-generation electromagnetic aircraft catapult will be hurling test loads down the Lakehurst test track next month, and the project will be ready for test launching the first aircraft in summer 2010, program manager Capt. Randy Mahr said Thursday.
Navy officers and workers with the Electromagnetic Aircraft Launch System (EMALS) program gathered in wind-driven rain to celebrate completion of the first full-scale catapult, which precedes four shipboard catapults to be installed on the planned aircraft carrier USS Gerald Ford in 2015.
The $573 million contract to produce the EMALS system was awarded to primary contractor General Atomics of San Diego, Calif., in July. Testing and maintaining the system will keep the Lakehurst test site in business for at least 50 years, Mahr said, and obtaining the mission was a major coup for supporters of New Jersey military bases.
Steam-powered catapults built at Lakehurst and used since the 1950s have "shot more than 5 million times," said Kathleen Donnelly, director of the Navy's support and launch and recovery equipment engineering at Joint Base McGuire-Dix-Lakehurst. 'Now we move into the era of the electromagnetic catapult, which uses linear motors instead of steam pistons."
Tests with the 300-foot long EMALS will gradually increase speeds and loads "until it is capable of launching a F-35 off the bow," she said.
Electromagnetic power is more controllable - allowing operators to better adjust takeoff speed and acceleration speeds for different aircraft - and it has far fewer parts to maintain, said Sean Brennan, the program's chief engineer. That will offer benefits with less wear and tear on aircraft, lower maintenance costs and fewer demands on aircraft carrier crews, Navy officers said.
Still, navies are famously conservative, and it took some debate before Navy officials and military-minded members of Congress could see the benefits in moving away from the tried-and-true steam catapult, recalled Rep. Chris Smith, R-N.J., whose Congressional district includes the Navy section of the joint base.
"There was a lot of reluctance at first," and that prevented the EMALS idea — a concept that dates back to the 1980s - from rising higher on the Navy's research and development priorities, Smith said. But, Lakehurst engineers argued that technical issues could be overcome and the benefits would be worth it, Smith said, and in 2003 he and other supporters inserted an EMALS item into military budget legislation. In 2004, the Bush administration requested the $20.6 million appropriation.
Technical and management problems dogged the program, while primary
contractor General Atomics tested the prototype motor/generator that powers the catapult at its Tupelo, Miss., plant. The latest obstacle had included vibration affecting the linear motors, a problem that was addressed with bearing redesign, Mahr said.
Congressional skeptics quizzed Mahr again last summer at a House Armed Services subcommittee hearing, but the Navy had already recommitted itself to using EMALS on the USS Gerald Ford after a technical review of the system's progress.
In appearance and operation, EMALS will appear scarcely different to pilots and flight deck crews - minus the billowing steam, clanging catapult brakes, and high-maintenance equipment, Brennan said.
But, all that heavy iron associated with steam will be a fact of Navy life for years to come on older ships. "We'll have steam catapults on CVN77 (the USS George H.W. Bush), I'm told, until 2059," Mahr said.
LAKEHURST — The Navy's next-generation electromagnetic aircraft catapult will be hurling test loads down the Lakehurst test track next month, and the project will be ready for test launching the first aircraft in summer 2010, program manager Capt. Randy Mahr said Thursday.
Navy officers and workers with the Electromagnetic Aircraft Launch System (EMALS) program gathered in wind-driven rain to celebrate completion of the first full-scale catapult, which precedes four shipboard catapults to be installed on the planned aircraft carrier USS Gerald Ford in 2015.
The $573 million contract to produce the EMALS system was awarded to primary contractor General Atomics of San Diego, Calif., in July. Testing and maintaining the system will keep the Lakehurst test site in business for at least 50 years, Mahr said, and obtaining the mission was a major coup for supporters of New Jersey military bases.
Steam-powered catapults built at Lakehurst and used since the 1950s have "shot more than 5 million times," said Kathleen Donnelly, director of the Navy's support and launch and recovery equipment engineering at Joint Base McGuire-Dix-Lakehurst. 'Now we move into the era of the electromagnetic catapult, which uses linear motors instead of steam pistons."
Tests with the 300-foot long EMALS will gradually increase speeds and loads "until it is capable of launching a F-35 off the bow," she said.
Electromagnetic power is more controllable - allowing operators to better adjust takeoff speed and acceleration speeds for different aircraft - and it has far fewer parts to maintain, said Sean Brennan, the program's chief engineer. That will offer benefits with less wear and tear on aircraft, lower maintenance costs and fewer demands on aircraft carrier crews, Navy officers said.
Still, navies are famously conservative, and it took some debate before Navy officials and military-minded members of Congress could see the benefits in moving away from the tried-and-true steam catapult, recalled Rep. Chris Smith, R-N.J., whose Congressional district includes the Navy section of the joint base.
"There was a lot of reluctance at first," and that prevented the EMALS idea — a concept that dates back to the 1980s - from rising higher on the Navy's research and development priorities, Smith said. But, Lakehurst engineers argued that technical issues could be overcome and the benefits would be worth it, Smith said, and in 2003 he and other supporters inserted an EMALS item into military budget legislation. In 2004, the Bush administration requested the $20.6 million appropriation.
Technical and management problems dogged the program, while primary
contractor General Atomics tested the prototype motor/generator that powers the catapult at its Tupelo, Miss., plant. The latest obstacle had included vibration affecting the linear motors, a problem that was addressed with bearing redesign, Mahr said.
Congressional skeptics quizzed Mahr again last summer at a House Armed Services subcommittee hearing, but the Navy had already recommitted itself to using EMALS on the USS Gerald Ford after a technical review of the system's progress.
In appearance and operation, EMALS will appear scarcely different to pilots and flight deck crews - minus the billowing steam, clanging catapult brakes, and high-maintenance equipment, Brennan said.
But, all that heavy iron associated with steam will be a fact of Navy life for years to come on older ships. "We'll have steam catapults on CVN77 (the USS George H.W. Bush), I'm told, until 2059," Mahr said.
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Electro mechanical cats PFFT....
HMS GORDON BROWN
Sunday, 15 November 2009, the Royal Navy welcomed the latest member of its fleet today. The HMS Gordon Brown set sail today from its home port of Skegness .
The ship is the first of its kind in the Navy and is a standing legacy to Prime Minister Brown for his foresight in military budget cuts and his conduct while Prime Minister.
The ship is constructed nearly entirely from recycled aluminium and is completely solar powered with a top speed of 5 knots. It boasts an arsenal comprised of one (unarmed) F14 Tomcat or one (unarmed) F18 Hornet aircraft which, although they cannot be launched or captured on the 100 foot flight deck, form a very menacing presence.
As a standing order there are no firearms allowed on board.
The 20 person crew is completely diversified, including members of all races, creeds, sex, and sexual orientation.
This crew, like the crew aboard the Severn Ferry, is specially trained to avoid conflicts and appease any and all enemies of Britain at all costs!
An on - board Type One DNC Universal Translator can send out messages of apology in any language to anyone who may find Britain offensive. The number of apologies are limitless and though some may seem hollow and disingenuous, the Navy advises all apologies will sound very sincere.
The ship's purpose is not defined so much as a unit of national defence, but instead in times of conflict, the HMS Gordon Brown has orders to seek refuge in Blackpool.
The ship may be positioned near the Labour Party Headquarters for photo - ops.
The Browns should be very proud.
US Navy? who are they??
Sunday, 15 November 2009, the Royal Navy welcomed the latest member of its fleet today. The HMS Gordon Brown set sail today from its home port of Skegness .
The ship is the first of its kind in the Navy and is a standing legacy to Prime Minister Brown for his foresight in military budget cuts and his conduct while Prime Minister.
The ship is constructed nearly entirely from recycled aluminium and is completely solar powered with a top speed of 5 knots. It boasts an arsenal comprised of one (unarmed) F14 Tomcat or one (unarmed) F18 Hornet aircraft which, although they cannot be launched or captured on the 100 foot flight deck, form a very menacing presence.
As a standing order there are no firearms allowed on board.
The 20 person crew is completely diversified, including members of all races, creeds, sex, and sexual orientation.
This crew, like the crew aboard the Severn Ferry, is specially trained to avoid conflicts and appease any and all enemies of Britain at all costs!
An on - board Type One DNC Universal Translator can send out messages of apology in any language to anyone who may find Britain offensive. The number of apologies are limitless and though some may seem hollow and disingenuous, the Navy advises all apologies will sound very sincere.
The ship's purpose is not defined so much as a unit of national defence, but instead in times of conflict, the HMS Gordon Brown has orders to seek refuge in Blackpool.
The ship may be positioned near the Labour Party Headquarters for photo - ops.
The Browns should be very proud.
US Navy? who are they??
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Subsidising Indian defence.
Ken Scott
We are already subsidising India's new nuclear submarine fleet (google "INS Arihant") so we may as well do the same for their new carrier programme! Oh dear what has become of us?
We are already subsidising India's new nuclear submarine fleet (google "INS Arihant") so we may as well do the same for their new carrier programme! Oh dear what has become of us?
Last edited by 163627; 19th Nov 2009 at 23:13. Reason: Grammar