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RAF JPA Rollout

Old 14th Jun 2006, 10:46
  #781 (permalink)  
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Fantaman

You should be asking what your supervising officer and his/her supervisors are doing about it. I can only speak for the Navy, but if a lad/lass had come to me out of pocket by as much as a tenner I'd have been pushing it up the chain, hard. If my CO had found out I'd ignored it/done nothing, it'd be his office, my hat, no coffee.

Officers really should not be letting the airships get away with this, and by now I'd have been round all my team positively checking that their pay etc was in order.
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Old 14th Jun 2006, 10:53
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Sorry I should have elaborated more on my earlier post. The e-mail I sent to the Sun was a brief outline of the farce that is JPA and didn't contain any of my personal details.

The money I am missing is my four and a half year bonus that I was entitled to around two months ago. After tax, it works out at about £2400 or thereabout. I have spoken to my seniors who have in turn spoken to the station admin unit and JPA. All they get is the same answer that I get, someone will call you back in 10 days!

Sorry if I confused or misled anyone.
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Old 14th Jun 2006, 10:55
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Originally Posted by fantaman
Sorry I should have elaborated more on my earlier post. The e-mail I sent to the Sun was a brief outline of the farce that is JPA and didn't contain any of my personal details.

The money I am missing is my four and a half year bonus that I was entitled to around two months ago. After tax, it works out at about £2400 or thereabout. I have spoken to my seniors who have in turn spoken to the station admin unit and JPA. All they get is the same answer that I get, someone will call you back in 10 days!
Speaking is not enough anymore - you need to generate a paper trail. Get it all down, log the dates that everything gets sent/actioned, and keep pushing at the deadlines.
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Old 14th Jun 2006, 11:04
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JPA isn't a problem for me. Until they make it a secure system, I refuse to use it and believe that life is better for it.
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Old 14th Jun 2006, 11:07
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I have spoken to my seniors who have in turn spoken to the station admin unit and JPA. All they get is the same answer that I get, someone will call you back in 10 days!
Can you request an interview with the station boss in the RAF? It certainly used to be possible in the RN. Gather all the written evidence, request the interview, take it to him, and stand well back!
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Old 14th Jun 2006, 11:46
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Originally Posted by airborne_artist
Can you request an interview with the station boss in the RAF? It certainly used to be possible in the RN. Gather all the written evidence, request the interview, take it to him, and stand well back!
With the RN you still have to follow the right channels first (request to see the Commanding Officer would be placed via DO first, which makes sense as they should be advising you on how to do it properly) - the only time you can rep up straight to the CO is on Divisions, when you are allowed to rep to the inspecting officer. Which could be highly amusing, and I only ever thought someone was going to do it once, but they bottled it.

I think you would probably get fairly short shrift from a CO, as it is not within his remit to rectify, only to inform those higher of your grievance. The correct form (RN wise) would be to raise a written representation, in our case through DO and straight to DD Pay in London who would take the whole issue for action.
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Old 14th Jun 2006, 12:07
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If the indirect approach isn't working - ie. through SNCOs and JOs, the best way to get something done is to write to your commanding officer.

The golden rules are:

1. Explain your case factually, accurately and concisely.

2. Politely summarise what you would like done about it.

Provided you follow the rules above, you will not get into trouble and can refer to the letter at a later date - the chain of command also know this, which is why it is likely to result in some action!
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Old 14th Jun 2006, 12:25
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Originally Posted by PompeySailor
Tell him you are a 16 year old rent boy. Normally works. Allegedly.

Seriously, put the facts down, explain how you are not receiving your correct pay, point out why the statements in the House are incorrect, and corroborate with facts where possible. Pointing him here won't work, as he will need to see verifiable proof. Have a dig around the JPA site and see what you can print off which backs you up. Most MPs will gladly take up the baton from the Armed Forces, it will depend on which party though. Copy the letter to No 10 and, if you are brave, the CE of JPA, explaining that you have exhausted all other routes.

Good luck
Unfortunately, one of the first questions your MP will ask is - have you used the internal Formal Complaints process (ie Redress of Complaint) - utilising your MP will only be effective if you have exhausted that method first, as the MOD will reply - we have not received a Formal Complaint from the individual so we were unaware. Hence the earlier response from the House when Cameron asked the questions about JPA.

For RAF Bods look up QR 1000 and AP 3392 Vol4 lflt 1806 on Redress of Complaint. The longer you keep whining on this forum and relying on the JPAC to sort out your problems, the longer it will be for the system to sort its self out. Remember Redress of Complaint is your statutory right as a Serviceman/woman under the relevant Service Discipline Act.
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Old 14th Jun 2006, 17:55
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Only 120 days until the Royal Navy starts JPA....should we be scared or is it fixed?
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Old 14th Jun 2006, 18:06
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Vec

Of course it's all working now - Wg Cdr Field says so!

Undoubtedly the RN will get it on time - for one and only one reason - to avoid government embarrassment.

If I'm honest I can now easily log-on, which is something nobody could do for the first month. I've also applied for leave (or whatever it's called now) with no apparent problems. As for anything else, it simply doesn't have the capability to do hundreds of things we used to and there's no evident central plan in place as a contingency. JPA may be working, just not for anyone in the RAF!
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Old 14th Jun 2006, 18:47
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Angry

should we be scared or is it fixed?
That depends what you consider 'fixed' to mean. I am on a UK main base, and normally have no trouble accessing the service, submitting claims etc. However, I can well believe that anyone away from the backbone RLI is struggling. There will undoubtedly be units even within the UK where access is slow to impossible - we have never taken the requirement for bandwidth seriously, or employed contractors who have the necessary skills to develop software strategies that work with narrow pipes.. As for those who are out of area (at permanent or temporary deployed sites), I can well believe that the system is impossible to use.

I was at MoD the other day for a meeting, and the mil guys I was dealing with were still using paper - perhaps it's because they are 'Joint', but I don't think so.

The software itself is not fully developed or tested - today I put in a claim for UK Daily Subsistence that was initially rejected because I had put UK instead of United Kingdom in the box which wanted to know where I had been when I had expended the cash... why was it even asking?? It also frequently refers users to the rules applicable to a particular claim, but there are no links and it often says things like See JSP XXX Leaflet YYY Para ZZZ, but no-one has gone back and filled-in the missing numbers!

I know I am in danger of repeating myself, but as bad as all this is, the real bolleaux about the introduction of JPA is the actual changes to entitlements that have been sneaked-in with it. We have been right-royally shafted!!!!! What gripped me today was a reminder message to users at my unit that the rates are maxima, and that just because you can claim up to £21(?) for daily subsistence doesn't mean that you are entitled to it. They have apparently been getting claims for the full amount, which the adminers reckon is indicative of people 'over-claiming'. Of course, it is unlikely that individuals will have receipts for the full amount unless they buy one or 2 large meals, but my understanding is that any purchase costing less than £5 does not need a receipt. Assuming the £21 is correct, you could legitimately buy 16 McD burgers (separately), a couple of drinks, a newspaper and make a brief call home, adding up to the full amount, which is entirely legitimate, but requires no actual receipts. When I questioned how any investigation into a supposed fraud of the systen might possibly be made to stick, I was met with a shrug. It just seems to me that this stupid system is trying to make people feel guilty about claiming things to which they are entitled.

It is disgusting.

You will hate it.

STH
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Old 14th Jun 2006, 21:29
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I've really had enough of it. The claims element is now working OK on the surface of it, but I agree with STH that the raft of small-minded penny-pinching measures brought in with JPA beggar belief. I was away for a 5-day det to the US; the subesquent claim which took nearly two hours to submit even after 'er indoors had sorted through all my receipts and made sense of the whole thing (she's an accounts clerk, bless her). What no one is counting is the cost in man-hours lost to the service, plus the loss of goodwill due to the fact that our lords and masters believe this system is better (read: cheaper) than just issuing a daily rate and letting us get on with it.

I have now been embarrassed on several occasions when dining with US and civilian colleagues of equal or greater rank due to the need to try to stay within budget.

It's taken three months to get a pay packet that makes any sense (I was posted in March) and have been forced to write to OC Admin (sorry, BSW) regarding the lack of response to my queries to JPAC and the 'back office'.

The whole thing should be rolled up and thrown in the skip, with the perpetrators publicily vilified throughout the kingdom....


Sorry. Rant got way from a me a bit......

SBG
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Old 14th Jun 2006, 22:42
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SBG so when are you going to write your Redress of Complaint - the system is not concerned with complaints to the JPAC, HR Staff (old money PSF) or the OC Admin Wg. They are only concerned with Redresses - if you have a grievance with JPA submit the Redress!!!

To date there have still been no Redresses submitted by RAF personnel.
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Old 15th Jun 2006, 16:46
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I have followed this thread closely, and have asked the Government what is happening. I received a reply yesterday:
Ministry of Defence: Joint Personnel Administration System
Lord Garden asked Her Majesty's Government:
What assessment they have made of the performance of the Ministry of Defence joint personnel administration system; and [HL6073]
How many complaints have been made about errors in pay and allowances to the Ministry of Defence joint personnel administration system since it went live for the Royal Air Force on 20 March; and [HL6074]
When the Ministry of Defence joint personnel administration system is expected to be extended to the Army and the Royal Navy; and [HL6075]
What is the total cost of the contract for the Ministry of Defence joint personnel administration system. [HL6076]
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Drayson): On 20 March 2006, the Armed Forces Personnel Administration Agency (AFPAA) rolled out joint personnel administration (JPA) to 48,000 RAF service personnel throughout the world, on time and on budget. The event marked the culmination of five years' system design, development, integration and testing and bears testimony to a very strong partnering agreement between MoD and EDS.
The current estimated total cost of the JPA project, including costs preceding full development and also its initial period of in-service operation through to the end of financial year 2008-09, covering both MoD and extramural costs, is £269 million. JPA is expected to deliver savings in excess of £100 million per year when fully in service.
On JPA rollout to the RAF, there were a number of technical issues which had not manifested in the extensive testing carried out prior to its launch. These resulted in the system operating much more slowly than anticipated which greatly restricted the number of self-service users at any one time. Over the course of the following six weeks these early problems were overcome and users have had access to the full system functionality since 18 May.
JPA performed satisfactorily on rollout to RAF professional HR administrators and has successfully delivered pay to the RAF with only relatively few discrepancies in the first month and many less in the second. Although the first few weeks following roll-out have resulted in a significant number of inquiries and requests for rectification of problems from individual users, as well as some 14 pieces of ministerial correspondence on behalf of constituents, as at 9 June there have been no formal grievances from individual users about JPA.
In order to ensure alignment of JPA with defence information infrastructure (future) programme requirements, current plans are that JPA will be rolled out to the RN from October 2006 and to the Army from March 2007.
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Old 15th Jun 2006, 17:22
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Which would indicate, would it not, that despite the huge number of individual cases described on PPRuNE and the 14 individual pieces of correspondence, Lord Drayson will continue to hide behind such utter fluff unless formal grievances are laid.

So what's stopping you all? Why aren't such grievances being filed every day, if that's what it takes?

'Comical Ali' Field will continue to spin the party line and you won't get any swift action until you do.
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Old 15th Jun 2006, 17:26
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Please someone tell me that the arrrrse-holes responsibe for JPA within the RAF are looking for future employment outside H M's Armed Forces! The whole thing is an unmitigated disaster. It is utterly UN-user friendly, complicated, unwealdy and NO improvement over what came before.

It is ****E! Oh! that explains the Aaarse-hole issue I suppose
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Old 15th Jun 2006, 21:10
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Originally Posted by BEagle
Which would indicate, would it not, that despite the huge number of individual cases described on PPRuNE and the 14 individual pieces of correspondence, Lord Drayson will continue to hide behind such utter fluff unless formal grievances are laid.

So what's stopping you all? Why aren't such grievances being filed every day, if that's what it takes?

'Comical Ali' Field will continue to spin the party line and you won't get any swift action until you do.
Too many whiners and not enough who have the moral courage to stand up when they have been wronged - they would rather stand behind anonymity on this forum than put there head above the parapet and be counted.
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Old 15th Jun 2006, 21:11
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Thumbs up DS & Sir Topham

Sir Topham you are right ..... and wrong! DA @ £21 is to cover lunch and/or dinner and/or breakfast if not covered by NS. If you are out for 5 hours and choose to have a slap up two course bar meal and non-alcoholic drink costing £25 for your lunch you are quite within your rights to claim £21. Any blunty that suggests otherwise should be put back in his box firmly.

You are wrong to suggest that one could claim 25 x McDs @ 99p because that would not reasonable as a lunch or dinner. Those who seek to circumvent the regs with too many sub £5, no receipt, claims will have the no receipt clause revoked and will have to produce everyone whatever the amount.
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Old 15th Jun 2006, 21:21
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DS

I have had cause to investigate the entitlements and can confirm that the allowance does indeed appear to be £21 for on or two meals and drinks, without splitting it out - although the 'abated' rate is something like £4.20 and this is supposed to cover your 'minor' meal of the day - ie lunch when the MOD provides dinner.
What is more interesting is that it now seems acceptable to claim for an alcoholic drink (one 'reasonable' one only!) - I have actually had SP Pol confirmation of this!
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Old 15th Jun 2006, 21:37
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I believe JSP 752 AL3 specifies alchohol is allowed with a meal.
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