Apache Escort?
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What a load of cack. I guess if the CH47s were flying into a hot LZ then fine, but for routine transit, utterly stupid. Surely this will limit the CH47's max range?
Sounds like a ploy to justify taking the thing out there. 16 Brigade will find it such a leech on logistics that it will be the last time anybody will want it to go anywhere.
Sounds like a ploy to justify taking the thing out there. 16 Brigade will find it such a leech on logistics that it will be the last time anybody will want it to go anywhere.
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We did with exercise "elite" in germany, i can tell you: nice that apache toys, but they slow the chinook down, bacause it is much faster. exercise elite is a kind of elec warfare and if you on your own, low on deck with "high" speed it's the best. let the apaches clear the lz for you and de route but do not stay in formation.
When it isn't going particularly well...and yer tit is in the mangle....those Apaches will be worth their weight in gold. (Assuming the fellas get enough practice with real bullets and rockets to be able hit what they are aiming for.)
Sooner or later it will go all ugly and having some Cavalry to call to save you from the Indians is nice. I would suggest all the Chinook pilots borrow some money from the Apache drivers.....as a bit of extra incentive. No rescue....no repayment.
Sooner or later it will go all ugly and having some Cavalry to call to save you from the Indians is nice. I would suggest all the Chinook pilots borrow some money from the Apache drivers.....as a bit of extra incentive. No rescue....no repayment.
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i'll wager that the Apache pilots are as slow to find their wallets as their aircraft is at reaching 100knots.
Formation with AH by night! - no thanks (for obvious reasons)
besides Chinook aircrew are undoubtedly paid far more than AH pilots due to the many deployments giving them far more LSSA than their fabled Army counterparts.
Formation with AH by night! - no thanks (for obvious reasons)
besides Chinook aircrew are undoubtedly paid far more than AH pilots due to the many deployments giving them far more LSSA than their fabled Army counterparts.
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It doesn't take a Tactics guru to work out that a Wocca at 100kts is easier to shoot down than one at 135!! Just because the latest thing fromn the Garage Door manufacturer in SW England is flying shotgun does'nt mean old Abdul isn't going to have a go.
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Originally Posted by junglyAEO
Undoubtedly true, but probably because most of them of Squabbling Ble@ders (who rather than leading "squadrons" just about lead themselves to the cab) rather than SSgts or WOs.
jungly
jungly
a particularly intelligent reply from the senior service! (grammar!)
The Army Ssgts and WOs associated with the Apache fleet have had the logistical nightmare of walking from their squaron building to their dispersal at Dishforth for the last few years, as opposed to SH aircrew who have had to get down and dirty in various operational theatres for years without a pointless AH presence.
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Originally Posted by laughingboy
a particularly intelligent reply from the senior service! (grammar!)
The Army Ssgts and WOs associated with the Apache fleet have had the logistical nightmare of walking from their squaron building to their dispersal at Dishforth for the last few years, as opposed to SH aircrew who have had to get down and dirty in various operational theatres for years without a pointless AH presence.
The Army Ssgts and WOs associated with the Apache fleet have had the logistical nightmare of walking from their squaron building to their dispersal at Dishforth for the last few years, as opposed to SH aircrew who have had to get down and dirty in various operational theatres for years without a pointless AH presence.
Willing to have a different mindset for future ops?
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Surely its the fact that every AAC aircraft over the last 30 or so years has proved itself in Northern Ireland, and not even the Army could justify sending a dedicated AH to the province! They therefore need to justify to the accountants that they will be used, and prove to the crabs that they are capable of operating something more complex than an electric toothbrush.
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dedicated AH to the province!
Electric toothbrush? How does that work??
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T
he Apache is, without doubt, a very capable Anti-Tank platform and should be employed in that role. Sending it to Afghanistan is simply a way for General Melchet and his General staff to justify spending millions of pounds on a bit of kit which was ten years late into service and for which there is now no role!!!
he Apache is, without doubt, a very capable Anti-Tank platform and should be employed in that role. Sending it to Afghanistan is simply a way for General Melchet and his General staff to justify spending millions of pounds on a bit of kit which was ten years late into service and for which there is now no role!!!
Sending it to Afghanistan is simply a way for General Melchet and his General staff to justify spending millions of pounds on a bit of kit which was ten years late into service and for which there is now no role!!!
And on the subject of wasting millions, what about the CH47's sat in a hangar somewhere gathering dust as they cannot be used at the moment?
SASLess old chap - you are probably right; there will come a time when someone, be it CrabAir Wokka's or Pongo, will need the cavalry. However, I, and I suspect most infantry troops, would prefer that cavalry to be in the form of a (relatively) fast air asset like Harrier, on scene in 15 minutes pretty much anywhere in the AOR, than the undoubtedly capable Apache an hour or two later.
Nothing (much) against the AH Boys, or the AAC in general - the ones I've met are extremely pleasant and professional. In my opinion, it is all a rather large and unfortunate case of politics (we've bought it, lets use it!) and inter-service (let's justify having an Army Air Force) wrangling than achieving the operational imperative.
Echoing earlier comments, everyone fly safe (including me!)
Oh, by the way JunglyAEO - you rock!
Nothing (much) against the AH Boys, or the AAC in general - the ones I've met are extremely pleasant and professional. In my opinion, it is all a rather large and unfortunate case of politics (we've bought it, lets use it!) and inter-service (let's justify having an Army Air Force) wrangling than achieving the operational imperative.
Echoing earlier comments, everyone fly safe (including me!)
Oh, by the way JunglyAEO - you rock!
However, I, and I suspect most infantry troops, would prefer that cavalry to be in the form of a (relatively) fast air asset like Harrier, on scene in 15 minutes pretty much anywhere in the AOR, than the undoubtedly capable Apache an hour or two later.
Bear in mind the AH will be on some form of strip alert fairly close to the Hot spots.
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Chaps,
As you know I have given the AH a hard time in the past and agree that sending it to Afghanistan just to escort a smarty tube full of track lube grunts is an utter waste of a £4.2bn investment.
I think that you will find that this is one of almost 20 items on the mission task list for AH in theatre. I do not intend to go into greater detail but lets just say it could clear the Lz visually by day from 15km and wipe it out from 8km. The escort role Apache with 30mm will cruise at 140KTAS and has the ability to fire on the move, of axis and hit sh1t first time, (if the crew have been train in this art - Oh I forgot they haven't)
Saying you don't need AH with you is like saying you don't want to take your personal protection weapon either, Oh thats right.... you don't but then nothing has changed with the SH mentality since the good old days in South Armagh when Lynx 5 had to lead them around by the hand and regularly back north side after nighttime excursions south of the borders 'Lost'.
PP
As you know I have given the AH a hard time in the past and agree that sending it to Afghanistan just to escort a smarty tube full of track lube grunts is an utter waste of a £4.2bn investment.
I think that you will find that this is one of almost 20 items on the mission task list for AH in theatre. I do not intend to go into greater detail but lets just say it could clear the Lz visually by day from 15km and wipe it out from 8km. The escort role Apache with 30mm will cruise at 140KTAS and has the ability to fire on the move, of axis and hit sh1t first time, (if the crew have been train in this art - Oh I forgot they haven't)
Saying you don't need AH with you is like saying you don't want to take your personal protection weapon either, Oh thats right.... you don't but then nothing has changed with the SH mentality since the good old days in South Armagh when Lynx 5 had to lead them around by the hand and regularly back north side after nighttime excursions south of the borders 'Lost'.
PP
There is a whopping big difference between a couple of dedicated gunship pilots getting in close and personal, putting rounds on target, looking the bad guys in the eye as they punch the rockets off and shoot the cannon at them....as compared to a couple of Jets whizzing through at warp speed screaming for vectors to the safe ejection area.
I have been there....done that....and know too well how nice it is to see the helicopter gunship rolling on on some rascal that is hosing yer butt down with automatic weapons fire or RPG's. Tac Air has its role to play and cluster bombs and napalm do a trick on the bad guys....but for up close and personal the helicopter gunship is where it is at. I am here today because of some guys that had the ability to put mini-gun fire and 17 pound warhead rockets exactly where they wanted.
The key element is the "grit" the gunnies have and will they be willing to get down there amongst'em to lay the Whoop Ass on them? You are not gonna set out there at 7KM's and do squat but watch the Assault Aircraft get killed. If your Apache guys cannot consistently and confidently hit pinpoint targets with both cannon and rockets you are in deep, deep, trouble. If they cannot hit something with the first cannon rounds or first pair of rockets then the bad guys will have you for lunch.
If you guys go into Afghanistan thinking you hold the advantage in all regards....just wait until you have a bird down with survivors in a contested LZ. You will find yourselves learning some costly lessons about under-estimating your enemy, and you will be wanting all the mortars, artillery, Apaches, Harriers, F-18's, F-16's, and B-52's you can summon.
That time is coming, count on it.
For you Apache pilots out there....it is walking the walk that counts....not talking the talk. Don't think the shooting will be controlled runs, with nice setups, and lots of time to pick the good guys apart from the bad. Most of your serious work will be instinctive shooting with hard maneuvering to get in to the position to be able to shoot. If you cannot hit it on the move instinctly, you will be a liability to everyone in the LZ. How close are you prepared to shoot to your own troops? When the fur is flying....it will be tens of meters sometimes...are you capable of doing that?
I have been there....done that....and know too well how nice it is to see the helicopter gunship rolling on on some rascal that is hosing yer butt down with automatic weapons fire or RPG's. Tac Air has its role to play and cluster bombs and napalm do a trick on the bad guys....but for up close and personal the helicopter gunship is where it is at. I am here today because of some guys that had the ability to put mini-gun fire and 17 pound warhead rockets exactly where they wanted.
The key element is the "grit" the gunnies have and will they be willing to get down there amongst'em to lay the Whoop Ass on them? You are not gonna set out there at 7KM's and do squat but watch the Assault Aircraft get killed. If your Apache guys cannot consistently and confidently hit pinpoint targets with both cannon and rockets you are in deep, deep, trouble. If they cannot hit something with the first cannon rounds or first pair of rockets then the bad guys will have you for lunch.
If you guys go into Afghanistan thinking you hold the advantage in all regards....just wait until you have a bird down with survivors in a contested LZ. You will find yourselves learning some costly lessons about under-estimating your enemy, and you will be wanting all the mortars, artillery, Apaches, Harriers, F-18's, F-16's, and B-52's you can summon.
That time is coming, count on it.
For you Apache pilots out there....it is walking the walk that counts....not talking the talk. Don't think the shooting will be controlled runs, with nice setups, and lots of time to pick the good guys apart from the bad. Most of your serious work will be instinctive shooting with hard maneuvering to get in to the position to be able to shoot. If you cannot hit it on the move instinctly, you will be a liability to everyone in the LZ. How close are you prepared to shoot to your own troops? When the fur is flying....it will be tens of meters sometimes...are you capable of doing that?
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Who knows for sure what opposition will be faced out there?
It could be nothing substantial but on the other hand it could be a big can of worms.
Regardless of the politics send it, if its not required bring it home.
pp
nothing has changed with the SH mentality since the good old days in South Armagh when Lynx 5 had to lead them around by the hand and regularly back north side after nighttime excursions south of the borders 'Lost'.?????
Lead us round by the hand? Hardly, we are capable of doing our own thing just Lynx 5 commander prefered to feel important. Lets be fair, SH and AAC were as guilty as each other for going south side!
It could be nothing substantial but on the other hand it could be a big can of worms.
Regardless of the politics send it, if its not required bring it home.
pp
nothing has changed with the SH mentality since the good old days in South Armagh when Lynx 5 had to lead them around by the hand and regularly back north side after nighttime excursions south of the borders 'Lost'.?????
Lead us round by the hand? Hardly, we are capable of doing our own thing just Lynx 5 commander prefered to feel important. Lets be fair, SH and AAC were as guilty as each other for going south side!
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Originally Posted by Door Slider
Who knows for sure what opposition will be faced out there?
It could be nothing substantial but on the other hand it could be a big can of worms.
Regardless of the politics send it, if its not required bring it home.
pp
nothing has changed with the SH mentality since the good old days in South Armagh when Lynx 5 had to lead them around by the hand and regularly back north side after nighttime excursions south of the borders 'Lost'.?????
Lead us round by the hand? Hardly, we are capable of doing our own thing just Lynx 5 commander prefered to feel important. Lets be fair, SH and AAC were as guilty as each other for going south side!
It could be nothing substantial but on the other hand it could be a big can of worms.
Regardless of the politics send it, if its not required bring it home.
pp
nothing has changed with the SH mentality since the good old days in South Armagh when Lynx 5 had to lead them around by the hand and regularly back north side after nighttime excursions south of the borders 'Lost'.?????
Lead us round by the hand? Hardly, we are capable of doing our own thing just Lynx 5 commander prefered to feel important. Lets be fair, SH and AAC were as guilty as each other for going south side!
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I'm almost at the conclusion of 'Operation Certain Death' and have had breifings on the mission in the past and was wondering in the context of this thread how people thought the Apache may compare to the Hind / Lynx air cover given to the Chinooks, SAS/SBS and Paras during Op Barras in Sierra Leone.
Ant
Edited for spelling and to also give mention to the SBS.
Ant
Edited for spelling and to also give mention to the SBS.
Last edited by Antelope; 19th Mar 2006 at 22:10.