Apache Escort?

[thelynxeffect]

Originally Posted by peoplespoet

As you know I have given the AH a hard time in the past and agree that sending it to Afghanistan just to escort a smarty tube full of track lube grunts is an utter waste of a £4.2bn investment.



PP

So would you agree leaving them to sit on the pan at back at 9 regt would be an even bigger waste of 4.2 billion quid.

It's too late to bitch, can we just all agree that MOD procurment sucks (all services) and get on and do the job, not cat fight like a bunch of children, one day that AH might just save your life.

All aircraft have a role that suits them best, it just so happens that this OP is the SH boys. They won't all be the same.

[AHQHI656SQN]

Laughingboy- You make me laugh.

I've resisted posting a reply, but I've just got to say, what utter tripe.

What is it, that the Apache has you so wound up. Why the cheap shots about the aircrew (especially the non-commisioned types).

My Squadron has worked very closely with the old smarty tubes recently including onboard HMS Ocean and we all seemed to get on well. Your drivel will only serve to breed contept for those who you claim to represent.

I'm not going to rise to slinging mud, not with the likes of you.

[Sloppy Link]

Originally Posted by peoplespoet

Chaps,
Apache with 30mm will cruise at 140KTAS and has the ability to fire on the move, of axis and hit sh1t first time, (if the crew have been train in this art - Oh I forgot they haven't)PP

PP,
Yet again you present a post with all the apparent grammar of one in the know. Clearly, upon inspection from those that do know, you are spouting drivel.

SL

xxx

[peoplespoet]

Sloppylink,

Sorry not biting (but which part is drivel?). I see however that the Helmand province is heating up nicely "1 US soldier dead and 3 injured during heavy fighting today".

The proof of the pudding shall be in the eating, and dinner is about to be served!

Quote: CO 9 Regt "we are ready for WAR....just give me an enemy to fight"....looks like Jimmy savell read the papers boss, does this mean we get a big silver medal on a red ribbon as well?

XXXPP

[Wingedapache]

I really do worry about just how complacent the Chinook fleet are. Remember the area of interset is a lawless, violent and unknown area even to you. Also pays to remember that the bad guys come out to play in the Spring...so don't get complacent, who knows what will happen.
As far as the speed of the Apache, trust me it will have no problems matching the Chinook, the 100ts you talk about is out of date!

As far as NCO pilots go, the guys flying the Apache are about as good as they get, whatever their background and for the uneducated amongst you most of them have seen operational service whilst acting as aircrew and also in most cases on the ground as infantry, armoured Corps and in some cases Special Forces, I'm sure you will agree that you could not want for a better bunch of guys to be baby sitting you! And from the initial and subsequent comments from the boys in blue, I feel that babysit is the correct term. So why don't we all stop worrying about each others jobs and get on with being professional in our own areas, also may pay to be a little more professional in our military capacity as well and stop the imature and unprofessional slagging.

[SubdiFuge]

So when called out on a casevac, the Chinooks won't have to wait for the AH to start up, whilst the casualty bleeds to death - or is the CO going to threaten to take disciplinary action just like he did on Eagle's Herrick if the Chinooks happen to be ready to go well before the AH.

I'm not saying the AH won't play its part, but it wasn't needed in 2002 was it?

I just hope that Chinook ops aren't limited to the radius of action of the AH, cos that would be barking.

[SASless]

Is there a very green hue to the Crab blue here or is it just my imagination?

I do believe the Crabs are miffed the Pongos have better toys than they...or is that my imagination too?

Anyone that cannot appreciate the value of having close-in helicopter gunship cover when the LZ turns into a duck shoot has no concept of reality I fear. If you are a Chinook crewmember harboring any thought whatsoever that you don't need the Apaches along....would you mind putting me on your life insurance policy as a beneficiary?

An example of how simple it is to find yerself wishing you were anywhere else....

http://www.chinook-helicopter.com/hi.../92-00475.html

http://www.chinook-helicopter.com/hi.../91-00269.html

[SubdiFuge]

And your point is that the AQ or Taleban would have run crying to their moms just because an AH was there - get real. These guys couldn't give a toss about armed helis, they would relish the chance to take that out too. The only things these guys don't like are fast jets and AC130s.

And for the record I've never said that I wouldn't want AH along - I just wouldn't want to mince around at 100kts with it a RESCORT - or for that matter, for it to wake up the locals in advance of my arrival. Also, there will be more occasions than not when the UK AH will not have the legs to get to where the Chinooks need to go - these ain't US AH with Robbie and pylon tanks you know!

The Chinook you refer to, is that the one which was shot down after the AH sweep cleared the LZ and then poked off?

[SASless]

Sub,

Have you been shot at? You ever land in an LZ under fire from hostile forces within 100 meters or less of your lofty perch in a Chinook?

You reckon a fast jet can do squat for you when that is going on?

The AC-130 can do miracles but how many of those do you lot have dedicated to your support? How long you going to have to wait for one of them to show up after you find yourself parked in the middle of a rifle range during a live fire practice?

You ever seen what a real gunship pilot can do when he knows his stuff?

As to the magic hour....the sad and tragic part of war is soldiers have been getting maimed and killed in them forever and that will not change ever. The key is to have all the firepower in the world hovering about (or orbiting overhead in the case of the AC130 and fast movers).

The AQ nor Taliban will run to Momma....that is exactly the point. They will gladly kill you if they have an opporunity. When they learn it is a losing process when the Apaches are there....they might just decide to play with the baby's Momma instead of taking a whack at you. Go in with just your Wokka and big ego and you will come second sooner or later.

[Two's in]

Wasn't the other point from SASless that when the $hit hit the fan everyone on this op worked as a team, regardless of what service they were from, and regardless of the everday "fog of war" decisions that got them into that fix in the first place? In fact, the kind of of teamwork you rely on to stay alive every day.

[mutleyfour]

Cant you lot just give it a rest, for it won't be long until all elements are in country and like it or not will need to get on. even if thats only to keep the troops on the ground in as safe an environment as ALL aviation assets can help to provide.

Whilst we all ike a bit of banter this is turning into a slanging match.

Time out gentlemen please

[iPodder]

Having served on Chinooks in Bagram the first time and been part of Herrick Eagle I'm pleased to say that the Ch-47 fleet and AH will get on just fine. AH is a cool bit of kit and I'd be well pleased to have it ride shotgun for me. That said, we do need to understand that this AO is more dangerous than the last one and maybe we are too keen to crow about our success; but boasting about what you've done is better than boasting about what you might be able to do!
Some changes will make working togther in Afghanistan easier.
1- We are different to the Army, Joint means working together not being the same.
2- We don't have RSMs so don't expect us to understand what he's screaming about.
3- Don't ask us what the Chinook can do and then ignore us because a staff college handout disagrees, it's very rude.
4- The answer is 2 Chinooks plus 2 AH at the LZ, now what's the question.

Hope that helps calm what was becoming a very boring thread.

SASless, tell us what you've done so we can learn before deploying; your constant hinting of what you've seen and done is becoming a touch tedious.

[wg13_dummy]

Will AH have their 30mm barrels fitted?

[KENNYR]

WG13...........only if they can find it in Otterburn.

[SASless]

iPods,

I would suggest getting access to any "Lessons Learned" summaries generated by other coalition aviation units that have operated in the Afghanistan and in particular the area in which you are headed. You might even consider doing a liasion trip to do a bit of hangar talk with guys who are current with the situation and location. Good ideas oft times get washed out on the way up the ladder and merely reading staff studies might not necessarily contain all the really useful information.

Other folks may not operate to your SOP's but comparing your current procedures and policies to the Lessons Learned might save you some grief. Just because the SOP is written one way does not mean it is etched in stone either...become repetitive and predictable and you will have problems as well.

Don't base future hopes of success upon past experiences....the Bad Guys are adapting and improving their tactics/strategy just as we are (or we should be anyway). Bad Guys have good days too....just like we do.

All my escapades are ancient history....but the basics are the same. If the Bad Guys ever take the initiative away from you....things get ugly in a hurry. Just be prepared to hit the ground and join the infantry should your Birdie decide to leave you in a lurch. That translates to there is no such thing as too much ammunition or too many different types of signalling devices. If they are not attached to you...you probably will leave them behind when you do the "Legging It" routine.

As they say...Total awareness is not paranoia.

[NURSE]

I seam to remember on Tellic when the 6 RMP were taken out. A chinook flying in an IRT got shot up and many of the personell on board were injured i think the figures were 10 including an RAFVR Doctor. would an apache on scene have made a difference i would say quite probably.

[SubdiFuge]

Just don't let the AH's performance be the driver for everything. If there is a job that needs doing and it needs doing now, if the AH can't play because it will restrict the Chinooks, then please don't stop the Chinooks going. If its to risky to go alone to an LZ then use some fast air to support the job. I'm sure that AH will play an important role, but if it can't play, it doesn't mean nobody else can.

[Evalu8ter]

Nurse, please don't get carried away with the thought that an Apache could/would have prevented the Chinook getting shot up back in 2003. The myth of Apache invincibility / aura of striking fear into anything that moves that was generated by Gulf War 1 (and perpetuated by McD Douglas) has long gone. It started waning in Kosovo when, under the heavy glare of the media, Apaches were sent to Albania as a "message" to Serbian troops in Kosovo; the Serbs didn't surrender, particularly after they started crashing all over Albania during trg sorties. Witness how "reluctant" the Taleban/AQ/ACF have been to engage Apaches / Cobras during OEF & OIF. For many of them it is a badge of pride to take on an attack helo, probably akin to driving a car of full of C4 into a checkpoint. While I fully agree that having an AH running shotgun is a damn good thing to have, it must be realised that it will not prevent you being engaged-just lessen the chances of you being brought down as (hopefully) the ambushees will receive swift justice in the form of a 30mm burst once they initiate an engagement. The publicity hype from the early 1990s has gone, AH is just another (albeit powerful & flexible) tool in the box and must be planned and used accordingly.

[SASless]

Eval,

Those crashes came as a result of not being trained up and equipped to do the mission as you should recall and you are correct in noting how it so adversely effected the mission.

The key is appropriate and adequate training and equipment, and procedures designed for the area and threat as they are....not as they are imagined to be.

The Apaches presence will not stop a Chinook from being downed...RPG's fired from close range, small arms fire from close range, and large caliber machine guns and Manpads can always succeed. The key is the close in support the Apaches will be able to provide (should be able to provide) by directing direct fire onto the Bad Guys after the Chinook is downed and the crew/pax are engaged in a firefight with the Oppos.

You will find rockets to be more effective than the gun in all likelihood. The mindset that rockets are "area fire" weapons will have to change. Anyone talk to the US Apache guys and see how they altered their tactics after they got into action in Iraq and Afghanistan to see what they have learned? The Marines in their Cobras have gone to using run and gun tactics it appears.

[SASless]

Perhaps this is the scuffle he refers to....




KANDAHAR, Afghanistan (AP) — Afghan and U.S. troops backed by American aircraft fought suspected Taliban Saturday in southern Afghanistan, leaving one U.S. service member and seven militants dead, officials said.
An American service member and an Afghan soldier also were wounded in the fighting in Helmand province's Sangin district, the U.S. military said in a statement. The region is a hotbed of insurgency and the booming drugs trade.

Afghan army commander Gen. Rahmatullah Raufi said seven suspected Taliban rebels were killed, while several others fled.

U.S. war planes dropped 11 guided bombs on about 20 militants involved in the clash, the U.S. statement said, adding that an assessment of militant casualties was ongoing.

"There are known Taliban extremists in the Sangin district and the Afghan National Army and coalition forces will continue to attack these enemies of Afghanistan until the district and province are safe and secure," U.S. commander Maj. Gen. Benjamin C. Freakley said.

The wounded troops were evacuated to a coalition base for treatment, the statement said.

The American's death brought to 222 the number of U.S. service members killed in and around Afghanistan since the ouster of the Taliban in 2001.

Fighting has spiked in southern Afghanistan in the past year, leaving swaths of it off-limits to aid workers and raising concerns for this country's fragile democracy.