Jaguar Overseas Training Flight
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I'm with southside and Ewan Whosearmy on this one ...
... actually, I'm not. I do believe they're talking b-ll---s.
The justification for spending a pleasant weekend away (after a legitimate training sortie) lies in the fact that these guys spend at least half the year out of the country (away from families and loved ones), living in crap tents with a 20 min phone call per week, getting bl00dy shot at and still being paid far less than their contempories in the civilian world. And I would afford this courtesy to all denominations of RAF aircrew (and those groundcrew who actually contribute to the smooth running of the Royal AIR Force).
( I suspect none of these guys could get half a dozen mortgages ... )
... actually, I'm not. I do believe they're talking b-ll---s.
The justification for spending a pleasant weekend away (after a legitimate training sortie) lies in the fact that these guys spend at least half the year out of the country (away from families and loved ones), living in crap tents with a 20 min phone call per week, getting bl00dy shot at and still being paid far less than their contempories in the civilian world. And I would afford this courtesy to all denominations of RAF aircrew (and those groundcrew who actually contribute to the smooth running of the Royal AIR Force).
( I suspect none of these guys could get half a dozen mortgages ... )
Last edited by threepointonefour; 2nd Mar 2006 at 00:28.
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Originally Posted by neilmac
Aviano is a NATO training base including FAC training (Jags are SA as well as recce) and where which Jags I believe were based during the Bosnian conflict?? I was under cover in Sarajevo! Jag served us brilliantly for 30+ years so show them off one last time to NATO should be a privilage and so what peeps enjoy themselves, good grief that will never catch on in this NEW RAF , waste of money?? Lets look at poiliticians or MOD Procurement service? Well done 41 (F)
If we were to take this to the logical conclussion ie no money can be spent on anything non-operationally related until we of all 3 services have the right equipment then we should also say goodbye to, amongst otherthings :
- Cocktail parties (on the back of RN ships) at friendly ports (US / NATO etc). No need for defence diplomacy with our allies surely.
- Adventure training - since when has diving in the Red Sea or white water rafting in Arizona or sports parachuting for non-Paras contributed to operational output (and if you're talking "developing leadership" then that arguement reads across to overseas training flights when, for many junior pilots and navigators (yes, I know the Jag doesn't have a nav but it's not the only the Jag force that conduct OTFs...) it is the first time they have flown in a foreign country).
Just out of curiosity do the RN pay port charges when they are tied up alongside Bahrain / Barbados / Hong Kong etc for R&R - if so surely they should anchor outside international waters and conduct all resupplies by air / ship. In fact, an RN mate told me the main "reason" given for port visits is to allow navigation in unfamiliar waters...
We need to get a reality check on this. Yes they went away for the weekend - I know for a fact that the government did not pay for the skiing portion of the trip so whether they skied, drank themselves stupid or visited museums it matters not. In the grand scheme of things £30K is peanuts (ie 30 chairs in MOD Main Building!). Most of this would have been fuel charges anyway (and the hours will have been part of their monthly allocation anyway and therefore would have been spent whether it was flying high level (and therefore more economical) to Italy or at 250' (and shorter, but more fun) around UK. 6 people, 3 nights in Italy - I reckon at most £1.5K out of the sqn budget.
As already alluded to I reckon the story came from a disgruntled worker at Coltishall who is facing the prospect of either losing his/her job (if a civvie) or having to move for the first time in umpteen years (if military).
Move on - there are far more important things to discuss. For instance, surely southside, being dark blue, doesn't go on beanos - he must go on dandys .... (with apologies to all those from outside these shores or who do not have kids and therefore don't understand the comic references!)
- Cocktail parties (on the back of RN ships) at friendly ports (US / NATO etc). No need for defence diplomacy with our allies surely.
- Adventure training - since when has diving in the Red Sea or white water rafting in Arizona or sports parachuting for non-Paras contributed to operational output (and if you're talking "developing leadership" then that arguement reads across to overseas training flights when, for many junior pilots and navigators (yes, I know the Jag doesn't have a nav but it's not the only the Jag force that conduct OTFs...) it is the first time they have flown in a foreign country).
Just out of curiosity do the RN pay port charges when they are tied up alongside Bahrain / Barbados / Hong Kong etc for R&R - if so surely they should anchor outside international waters and conduct all resupplies by air / ship. In fact, an RN mate told me the main "reason" given for port visits is to allow navigation in unfamiliar waters...
We need to get a reality check on this. Yes they went away for the weekend - I know for a fact that the government did not pay for the skiing portion of the trip so whether they skied, drank themselves stupid or visited museums it matters not. In the grand scheme of things £30K is peanuts (ie 30 chairs in MOD Main Building!). Most of this would have been fuel charges anyway (and the hours will have been part of their monthly allocation anyway and therefore would have been spent whether it was flying high level (and therefore more economical) to Italy or at 250' (and shorter, but more fun) around UK. 6 people, 3 nights in Italy - I reckon at most £1.5K out of the sqn budget.
As already alluded to I reckon the story came from a disgruntled worker at Coltishall who is facing the prospect of either losing his/her job (if a civvie) or having to move for the first time in umpteen years (if military).
Move on - there are far more important things to discuss. For instance, surely southside, being dark blue, doesn't go on beanos - he must go on dandys .... (with apologies to all those from outside these shores or who do not have kids and therefore don't understand the comic references!)
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Originally Posted by Wrathmonk
- Adventure training - since when has diving in the Red Sea or white water rafting in Arizona or sports parachuting for non-Paras contributed to operational output (and if you're talking "developing leadership" then that argument reads across to overseas training flights when, for many junior pilots and navigators (yes, I know the Jag doesn't have a nav but it's not the only the Jag force that conduct OTFs...) it is the first time they have flown in a foreign country).
I forgot to mention my pet subject of waste of cash ... the ski champs. Not only do those personnel who go on it waste tons more cash, they also slack off work while everyone else fills in for them while they're away 'on duty' ...!
And as an aside, the (quote) 'member of the RAF Colt groundcrew' who complained is eligible for a number of perks NOT available to aircrew - I seem to recall lineys having afternoons to go to college for further quals ... somehow I can't recall that same opportunity?
I'm all for both the above, if everything else is allowed ...
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i'm just loving all you growbags desperately trying to justify a weekend jolly for a bit of skiing!
we all know it was weekend jolly, they got busted when someone grassed them up, i expect they'll stop them for a month or two until the fuss dies down, and then they'll carry on as normal. but all this trying to justify it! purrlease!
we all know it was weekend jolly, they got busted when someone grassed them up, i expect they'll stop them for a month or two until the fuss dies down, and then they'll carry on as normal. but all this trying to justify it! purrlease!
3.14
Might be right there - those in glasshouses shouldn't throw stones and all that. Amazing the amount of money we spend on getting people NVQ's and the like so they can then apply for redundancy!
Pig
They won't stop - they did nothing wrong (even if it would appear they took twin stickers with gingers in the back!
). But then seeing as you left HM Forces 16 years ago you're probably not up to speed with current aircrew training requirements. Personally, I'd have waited until the Italian F1 GP or summer and the south coast of France before using up my annual entitlement for an OTF.
Might be right there - those in glasshouses shouldn't throw stones and all that. Amazing the amount of money we spend on getting people NVQ's and the like so they can then apply for redundancy!
Pig
They won't stop - they did nothing wrong (even if it would appear they took twin stickers with gingers in the back!
). But then seeing as you left HM Forces 16 years ago you're probably not up to speed with current aircrew training requirements. Personally, I'd have waited until the Italian F1 GP or summer and the south coast of France before using up my annual entitlement for an OTF.
Let's see, the currant bun slagging us off. Anyone remember the story about the editor landing in the proverbial last year after assaulting her husband? Didn't that go very quite very quickly? Ever wonder why?
I think a lot of newspaper editors were told to hush up or some of their own laundry might get a public airing. Why? Because there was more to the story to come out as to why she hit him, and they all know it.
The vast majority of them are self-serving scum (excuse the pun) who don't print or transmit the truth. They tell us what they think is important.
Going to calm down in a dark room now.
I think a lot of newspaper editors were told to hush up or some of their own laundry might get a public airing. Why? Because there was more to the story to come out as to why she hit him, and they all know it.
The vast majority of them are self-serving scum (excuse the pun) who don't print or transmit the truth. They tell us what they think is important.
Going to calm down in a dark room now.
Perhaps it might be appropriate to note here that the Sun's defence editor was previously with the Mirror, and was the reporter responsible for the 'Army's vile abuse of prisoners' stories. He moved onwards and upwards soon after it transpired that the story was actually 'Mirror conned into thinking photos taken in Preston originated in Iraq'.
He therefore has a history of not allowing the truth to get in the way of a good story - yet corporate comms (or whatever they're called) ensured he was the first newspaper journalist to get a ride in a Typhoon, apparently sending the message that he can print any old rubbish and will still be pandered to. One consolation is that he was rather unwell during that flight.
He therefore has a history of not allowing the truth to get in the way of a good story - yet corporate comms (or whatever they're called) ensured he was the first newspaper journalist to get a ride in a Typhoon, apparently sending the message that he can print any old rubbish and will still be pandered to. One consolation is that he was rather unwell during that flight.
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My 2 pence worth
I used to think that the Sun was the "Armed Forces Friend", but whilst it would seem they are on our side when it suits them, the rest of the time they can't wait to report about the RAF going on a jolly, or the Navy pranging a ship, or the Army getting rough with the locals in whatever desert they are fighting in. After all, most of the public have no idea of what happens behind the wire of a base. So fortunately our beloved current bun is there to fill there heads with this kind of rubbish, which makes us look all look bad. Then 6 months down the line when there is another radical dictator spoiling for a rumble or our own firemen pleading for more cash, we step into the breach once more and become heros again. I hope the little snipe who went squeeling to the papers is taken behind the hangar and given a damn good shoeing.
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Havoc 1 Clear Hot
Well done Seek & Destroy hope you all had a good time. Fond memories - The 'Jack Daniels' frenzy, Digger 3 o'clock and champagne. Long may OTFs continue regards to all ex 54(F) Sqn - Army (Be the Best)
Ban the Scum from all Messes?
What are the chances of the Scum being banned from all RAF Officers' Messes?
How about all RAF stations? Why not the whole hog and ban it from the ante-rooms and JRMs of all HM Armed Forces installations?
I have mixed feelings about that: except for the 3rd morale page, I think it is filled with drivel about celebrities and dumbed down stories posing as 'news'. On the other hand I do have flick through it every now and again to get an idea of what the proles who buy it are learning about current affairs in the UK and abroad.
How about all RAF stations? Why not the whole hog and ban it from the ante-rooms and JRMs of all HM Armed Forces installations?
I have mixed feelings about that: except for the 3rd morale page, I think it is filled with drivel about celebrities and dumbed down stories posing as 'news'. On the other hand I do have flick through it every now and again to get an idea of what the proles who buy it are learning about current affairs in the UK and abroad.
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Good luck lads (and lasses) if you can still get on these trips............shame on the Current Bun.......friends of the armed forces....I should cocoa!!!!!
Grab it whilst you can say!!!!!!!!!!
Grab it whilst you can say!!!!!!!!!!
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Get Real
How much does a flying hour cost? How much does a night's accommodation cost?
Picking a figure I ll just pretend there were 12 out there (probably less, I can't imagine there were 6 T birds). hotel night one hundred quid each? £3600 pounds total for 3 nights? Imprest at £30 each? £1080?
Total expenses £4680, call it £5000 for cash.
The jets fuel and maintenance cost £25000 in total? I don't think so. For potentially 4-6 hours flying for 6 a/c. So where the sun got that figure from who bloody knows.
The fact is the guys paid their own beer (apart from £30's worth) and rented their own skis.
The £5000 is insignificant compare to the cost of the flying of the jet. What's therefore the difference between flying it in the UK or Italy, apart from the training value?
Guy's who say you can achieve the level of training in the sim don't have a clue. And the one's who say that by flying str8 line to Aviano you are not learning anything have obviously never flown or think they are god's gift to flying. The day a pilot swears he has never learnt anything from a sortie is the day he should hang up his flying boots. There is not a sortie I can think of, even str8 forward transit I have not found a learning point.
I wish people like those jealous ones that surround us would give it a rest, if they really think it's that easy up there why aren't they part of the broterin'?
Lads, well done, hope you had a nice time in aviano, I know exactly where you were coming from. Funny how they never report the heroic acts that sometimes one is ask to consciously take, however you let off a bit of steam and these b****ds are quick to slag you off.
And the ones who think they are part of us, but come up with some of the comments I have read, think again.
Picking a figure I ll just pretend there were 12 out there (probably less, I can't imagine there were 6 T birds). hotel night one hundred quid each? £3600 pounds total for 3 nights? Imprest at £30 each? £1080?
Total expenses £4680, call it £5000 for cash.
The jets fuel and maintenance cost £25000 in total? I don't think so. For potentially 4-6 hours flying for 6 a/c. So where the sun got that figure from who bloody knows.
The fact is the guys paid their own beer (apart from £30's worth) and rented their own skis.
The £5000 is insignificant compare to the cost of the flying of the jet. What's therefore the difference between flying it in the UK or Italy, apart from the training value?
Guy's who say you can achieve the level of training in the sim don't have a clue. And the one's who say that by flying str8 line to Aviano you are not learning anything have obviously never flown or think they are god's gift to flying. The day a pilot swears he has never learnt anything from a sortie is the day he should hang up his flying boots. There is not a sortie I can think of, even str8 forward transit I have not found a learning point.
I wish people like those jealous ones that surround us would give it a rest, if they really think it's that easy up there why aren't they part of the broterin'?
Lads, well done, hope you had a nice time in aviano, I know exactly where you were coming from. Funny how they never report the heroic acts that sometimes one is ask to consciously take, however you let off a bit of steam and these b****ds are quick to slag you off.
And the ones who think they are part of us, but come up with some of the comments I have read, think again.
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Waste of money my arse
Whatever the actual cost of the flts to/from Aviano, It was half the amount that it would have cost to fly the jets for 2 waves on the Mon and Fri. Apparently now the guys are not to ski on any OTF even if it is all out of their own pocket. Looks like a few trips to the Opera in Italy instead - until that gets banned too!
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Just out of curiosity do the RN pay port charges when they are tied up alongside Bahrain / Barbados / Hong Kong etc for R&R - if so surely they should anchor outside international waters and conduct all resupplies by air / ship. In fact, an RN mate told me the main "reason" given for port visits is to allow navigation in unfamiliar waters...
.........and before you mention the good lads of the RFA.....
....there are 8 RFA tankers to support close to 83 surface ships.....which would mean we would have to travel around in groups of 10 or more...we don't do that.
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3.14
When exactly did the Jag Force spent 6 months away, in hot sandy places getting shot at?
Truth is, the Jag Force has contributed nothing...repeat nothing to the operational edge of the RAF since we were kicked out of Turkey at the end of 2002.
We have wasted millions on keeping the Jag flying to 'provide a core of experienced single seat pilots for Typhoon' - How many Jag pilots will get a Typhoon cockpit? Enough to justify spending millions keeping Colt open, moving s****y six to CGY and sending them to the states last year and this year?
When exactly did the Jag Force spent 6 months away, in hot sandy places getting shot at?
Truth is, the Jag Force has contributed nothing...repeat nothing to the operational edge of the RAF since we were kicked out of Turkey at the end of 2002.
We have wasted millions on keeping the Jag flying to 'provide a core of experienced single seat pilots for Typhoon' - How many Jag pilots will get a Typhoon cockpit? Enough to justify spending millions keeping Colt open, moving s****y six to CGY and sending them to the states last year and this year?
Sooms,
Even if what you said were correct (which it isn't) then simply "keeping the Jag flying to 'provide a core of experienced single seat pilots for Typhoon" was a worthwhile ambition.
Risking some swollen heads, it's plain to the unbiased observer (and that excludes those not good enough to be selected to fly the beast) that the Jag Force has been something of an elite - taking the best of those who graduate from Valley/Brawdy/Chivenor (at least since they stopped taking Lightning pilots). Make no mistake - anyone who wins proper Wings (as opposed to budgie wings, which I might boast about to folk who know no better....) has earned my total respect, but I have to say that many of the really high calibre people I've met (not all, by any means) have been from the Jaguar force - from the rapidly promoted shooting stars like Mike Seares, Bob J, Graham W, etc. to the hugely professional aviators who have remained in the cockpit, like D-Reg B and POD.
It's equally clear that the Jag GR3A (for all its performance and especially payload/range limitations) has a cockpit that in some respects represents a good learning environment for Typhoon - paper tidy, with EFRCs and ETAPs, with an operational helmet sight, IDM, RAIDS etc.
That's why Sir Jock has been so keen to get a high proportion of Jag mates onto Typhoon (and a very high proportion of Jag chaps from 54, 41, and 6 will find themselves on the Typhoon by the time 6 stands up on Typhoon).
But keeping the Jag and Coltishall has not only been about retaining a cadre of single-seat fast jet OS pilots for Typhoon. Colt has always (rightly) been a pretty 'retention positive' place, while the Jag's exclusion from some recent ops has sometimes been driven by a political need not to make the jet visibly 'indispensable'. Before the decision was taken to withdraw the Jag from service early, the aircraft and its air and groundcrew at least bore their share of the brunt of overseas detachments and deployments. Even today the presence of a rapidly deployable force in the frontline that can do Recce/TIALD/OS (doing recce and TIALD with greater accuracy than some other platforms) could be of huge value, if it is needed.
And it's cheap. Every Jag flying hour costs considerably less than a Harrier, GR4 or F3 hour. A Jaguar squadron costs about half as much as a GR4 squadron to run, and achieves better availability. If you deploy it you can do so with a much smaller logistics footprint and with half as many personnel. All of the figures are in Hansard, if you choose to look for them.
Finally, every Jag hour flown has been a GR4 or Harrier hour that hasn't had to be flown, making it faintly more probable that those latter types might reach their planned OSDs. Some believe that a Jag and F3 SEAD force should be retained (in place of two GR4 and one GR7 squadrons) in order to spread GR4/GR7 hours over a larger pool of aircraft, in order to allow the key types to reach their planned OSDs (2017 for the GR7/9, 2023 for the GR4).
Even if what you said were correct (which it isn't) then simply "keeping the Jag flying to 'provide a core of experienced single seat pilots for Typhoon" was a worthwhile ambition.
Risking some swollen heads, it's plain to the unbiased observer (and that excludes those not good enough to be selected to fly the beast) that the Jag Force has been something of an elite - taking the best of those who graduate from Valley/Brawdy/Chivenor (at least since they stopped taking Lightning pilots). Make no mistake - anyone who wins proper Wings (as opposed to budgie wings, which I might boast about to folk who know no better....) has earned my total respect, but I have to say that many of the really high calibre people I've met (not all, by any means) have been from the Jaguar force - from the rapidly promoted shooting stars like Mike Seares, Bob J, Graham W, etc. to the hugely professional aviators who have remained in the cockpit, like D-Reg B and POD.
It's equally clear that the Jag GR3A (for all its performance and especially payload/range limitations) has a cockpit that in some respects represents a good learning environment for Typhoon - paper tidy, with EFRCs and ETAPs, with an operational helmet sight, IDM, RAIDS etc.
That's why Sir Jock has been so keen to get a high proportion of Jag mates onto Typhoon (and a very high proportion of Jag chaps from 54, 41, and 6 will find themselves on the Typhoon by the time 6 stands up on Typhoon).
But keeping the Jag and Coltishall has not only been about retaining a cadre of single-seat fast jet OS pilots for Typhoon. Colt has always (rightly) been a pretty 'retention positive' place, while the Jag's exclusion from some recent ops has sometimes been driven by a political need not to make the jet visibly 'indispensable'. Before the decision was taken to withdraw the Jag from service early, the aircraft and its air and groundcrew at least bore their share of the brunt of overseas detachments and deployments. Even today the presence of a rapidly deployable force in the frontline that can do Recce/TIALD/OS (doing recce and TIALD with greater accuracy than some other platforms) could be of huge value, if it is needed.
And it's cheap. Every Jag flying hour costs considerably less than a Harrier, GR4 or F3 hour. A Jaguar squadron costs about half as much as a GR4 squadron to run, and achieves better availability. If you deploy it you can do so with a much smaller logistics footprint and with half as many personnel. All of the figures are in Hansard, if you choose to look for them.
Finally, every Jag hour flown has been a GR4 or Harrier hour that hasn't had to be flown, making it faintly more probable that those latter types might reach their planned OSDs. Some believe that a Jag and F3 SEAD force should be retained (in place of two GR4 and one GR7 squadrons) in order to spread GR4/GR7 hours over a larger pool of aircraft, in order to allow the key types to reach their planned OSDs (2017 for the GR7/9, 2023 for the GR4).
"......then stayed the weekend and got pissed, shagged Italian birds and done some skiing...."
Thought we were discussing Jag mates?
Sorry!
Thought we were discussing Jag mates?
Sorry!
