Forces Go Soft On Drugs
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As an ex oggie mover I can tell you that promotions were purely bar related.
This latest fiasco sounds like the 'get out of Iraq by using the drugs excuse' door has been firmly slammed.
I can imagine that with all the extra troops going east ,this old nugget is used more and more and has probably reached epidemic proportions.
All those claiming drug abuse would be sent out east and on return would be discharged.
Most of these guys dont use drugs and are just using the excuse to get a discharge.
This latest fiasco sounds like the 'get out of Iraq by using the drugs excuse' door has been firmly slammed.
I can imagine that with all the extra troops going east ,this old nugget is used more and more and has probably reached epidemic proportions.
All those claiming drug abuse would be sent out east and on return would be discharged.
Most of these guys dont use drugs and are just using the excuse to get a discharge.
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A little bird (scablifter) tells me that during recent CDT the results were astronomical. So high in fact that they were ignored in case it meant disbanding an entire front line squadron. Maybe the powers that be have seen the results and decided that if you can't beat 'em....etc
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I'm sorry to upset the apple cart over this '16 Blades' but I have voted blue all my life, never red.
Anyway back to the subject in hand. It appears that you have truly swallowed the press view on drugs hook, line and sinker. Yes some drugs can causes long-term and permanent alterations but the same can be said about long-term high usage of nice, safe alcohol, something which isn't exactly unheard of in this bar-centric armed forces we serve in (yes I still serve).
As I've already mentioned do you honestly believe alcohol, a drug (yes thats what it is folks) that can cause violence, depression, liver damage and lead to serious addiction problems and all the linked problems that entails would ever be legalised if it were discovered tomorrow?
Have they? Are you sure drugs haven't been used in one form or the other since the days of early man? And this devastation, is it as widespread as that caused by alcohol?
I'm not trying to change your mind on this issue, like myself you obviously have strong views on this and as such to attempt to enlighten you would no doubt be fruitless, I've just pointed out what I believe may be the reasons behind this 'softening' of the military drug policy.
Oh BTW, although 'Southside' does seem to talk more often than not complete b)ll&cks he does very occasionally (is there a blue moon outside at the mo?) say something worthwhile. Now although I'm not sure if he is playing devils advocate to wind you regulars up or not he does seem to take a more enlightened view on this issue than the tired old "it didn't happen in my day"(yes it did actually) and "birch them then throw them out" (the can you please take all the alcohol abusers out as well then too? Last one out turn off the light).
Anyway back to the subject in hand. It appears that you have truly swallowed the press view on drugs hook, line and sinker. Yes some drugs can causes long-term and permanent alterations but the same can be said about long-term high usage of nice, safe alcohol, something which isn't exactly unheard of in this bar-centric armed forces we serve in (yes I still serve).
The point is, alcohol is part of our culture, and has been for centuries.
drugs have only been in widespread use for a relatively short period of time, and have caused devastation.
I'm not trying to change your mind on this issue, like myself you obviously have strong views on this and as such to attempt to enlighten you would no doubt be fruitless, I've just pointed out what I believe may be the reasons behind this 'softening' of the military drug policy.
Oh BTW, although 'Southside' does seem to talk more often than not complete b)ll&cks he does very occasionally (is there a blue moon outside at the mo?) say something worthwhile. Now although I'm not sure if he is playing devils advocate to wind you regulars up or not he does seem to take a more enlightened view on this issue than the tired old "it didn't happen in my day"(yes it did actually) and "birch them then throw them out" (the can you please take all the alcohol abusers out as well then too? Last one out turn off the light).
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Originally Posted by Talk Wrench
The use of drugs (except prescribed), indicates a tremendous lack of self discipline and control.
I for one, don't wish to work with these people.
I for one, don't wish to work with these people.
Originally Posted by 16 blades
only a tiny proportion of adults use illegal drugs, and these are mostly to be found in two distinct groups - young urban professionals (the trendy fabled 'Notting Hill set' being a perfect example) and worthless council estate chavs.
In my opinion illegal drugs and Flying/Forces don't mix. I would hope that the majority of RAF personnel would be professional and strong-willed enough to turn down drugs. I have refused offers on countless occasions. It's not exactly a big deal and to be honest I wouldn't want to be friends with people who thought it was.
The RAF has been described as a 'drinking club with a flying problem' and this is most definitely the case. Alcohol pervades every aspect of our shared social lives. Most people are professional enough to be sensible with 'bottle to throttle' rules and the consequences of hangovers but a large group aren't.
As somebody said earlier: Which would you rather work with; the guy who has the occasional joint to relax and is fresh faced the next day or the one who drinks 10 shandys a night and is hungover all next day?
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PileIp Officer
Sir,
'The acceptance and/or use of drugs within the forces is also extremely high if you know the 'right people' to talk with'
If, as you say above, this is a fact, then I sincerely hope that you have the courage and leadership to bring those responsible to the attention of the relevant authorities.
Your comments will strike utter fear into every member of the Armed Forces who are both sensible and law abiding people. And it will create severe concern amongst ALL of those who rely on others for their safety and well-being. I strongly urge you to do the right thing and help irradicate this problem and these people.
Strong words I know, but you have the option and the ability to do something about this, to do the right thing. One day it might be you who needs to rely on someone who might have taken drugs the night before. I'll bet your family will be upset if the BOI finds that your life was lost because some fool had been taking something the night before. So come on Pile Up, be a man and do the right thing.
As for the old 'bottle to throttle' thing, yes I have seen it abused also, and used right up to the line, and I certainly do not condone it either. Remember the JP that crashed into the lake many years ago now? You probably don't but many on this forum will - enuf said!
Kind regards
TSM
Sir,
'The acceptance and/or use of drugs within the forces is also extremely high if you know the 'right people' to talk with'
If, as you say above, this is a fact, then I sincerely hope that you have the courage and leadership to bring those responsible to the attention of the relevant authorities.
Your comments will strike utter fear into every member of the Armed Forces who are both sensible and law abiding people. And it will create severe concern amongst ALL of those who rely on others for their safety and well-being. I strongly urge you to do the right thing and help irradicate this problem and these people.
Strong words I know, but you have the option and the ability to do something about this, to do the right thing. One day it might be you who needs to rely on someone who might have taken drugs the night before. I'll bet your family will be upset if the BOI finds that your life was lost because some fool had been taking something the night before. So come on Pile Up, be a man and do the right thing.
As for the old 'bottle to throttle' thing, yes I have seen it abused also, and used right up to the line, and I certainly do not condone it either. Remember the JP that crashed into the lake many years ago now? You probably don't but many on this forum will - enuf said!
Kind regards
TSM
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Perhaps I got a little carried away with my words there. Use of drugs (In my experience) is not particularly high but there is a very large tacit acceptable of drug use amongst others.
The vast majority of people I have spoken to have used drugs prior to joining the Air Force and in lots of cases to a much greater degree than the 'usual few joints at university'.
The vast majority of people I have spoken to have used drugs prior to joining the Air Force and in lots of cases to a much greater degree than the 'usual few joints at university'.
"The vast majority of people I have spoken to have used drugs prior to joining the Air Force and in lots of cases to a much greater degree than the 'usual few joints at university'."
Name them, shame and shop them. Such low-life should be thrown out right now.
Not wanted. Not at all. Goodbye, no pension, f*ck off and never come back.
Anyone caught peddling illegal drugs should be boiled alive in their own excreta until dead. For a first offence.
Name them, shame and shop them. Such low-life should be thrown out right now.
Not wanted. Not at all. Goodbye, no pension, f*ck off and never come back.
Anyone caught peddling illegal drugs should be boiled alive in their own excreta until dead. For a first offence.
Short Blunt Shock
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THS,
Exactly the response I was expecting. You may be a 'blue' voter (possibly due to your background, I don't know - I used to be a 'Red' voter because of my background, until I actually became TRULY enlightened and saw that lot for what they are) but your attitudes betray utterly typical blind trendy 'liberalism'. As do your utterly typical smear tactics - if I (or anyone else) do not see things the 'modern' way, I am not 'enlightened', as you claim to be? I can assure you that I am VERY enlightened when it comes to drug culture. I have lived amongst it and seen it happening all around me. The difference is, I do not resign myself to accepting it just because I see it around me. Just because many are doing it, that DOES NOT make it acceptable.
Try reading my post again, oh 'enlightened' one, and you will discover that I already addressed this point you are trying to make (and, in fact, I predicted, accurately, that you would make it).
Again, read before you reply. I have emboldened the key word in this statement to make it easier for you.
No, my friend, I'm afraid it is YOU who have swallowed the trendy propaganda of the pro-drugs lobby who have pressurised this pathetic govt into softening drugs policy, flying in the face of mounting and manifold medical evidence of the harm caused. You are guilty of believing that your narrow social circle represents society as a whole (again, wholly typical of your breed) - you need to open your eyes before it is too late.
PUO,
Re-read my post that you quoted.
Again, key word emboldened. At no point did I infer exclusivity to these groups, merely a trend. Note also that I said 'ADULTS'. Students are not adults in my eyes. They are largely arrogant kids who think they know it all, but will very quickly discover tht they do not.
Then you need to get some new friends. Seriously.
Being well aware of the TRUE effects of cannabis, and having witnessed first-hand the kind of devastation that even mild long-term use can create, I will fly with the hung-over bloke ANY DAY. And so would anybody else with half a brain.
With the attitudes you have both displayed and the admissions you have both made, It is my sincerest hope that the company plods that peruse these boards make every effort to track you down and expose you, extracting information from you on exactly who these 'right people' are and hunting them down too. There is NO place in the Armed Forces for illegal drug use. PERIOD.
I sincerely hope that NEITHER of you are responsible for any subordinates.
16B
Exactly the response I was expecting. You may be a 'blue' voter (possibly due to your background, I don't know - I used to be a 'Red' voter because of my background, until I actually became TRULY enlightened and saw that lot for what they are) but your attitudes betray utterly typical blind trendy 'liberalism'. As do your utterly typical smear tactics - if I (or anyone else) do not see things the 'modern' way, I am not 'enlightened', as you claim to be? I can assure you that I am VERY enlightened when it comes to drug culture. I have lived amongst it and seen it happening all around me. The difference is, I do not resign myself to accepting it just because I see it around me. Just because many are doing it, that DOES NOT make it acceptable.
As I've already mentioned do you honestly believe alcohol, a drug (yes thats what it is folks) that can cause violence, depression, liver damage and lead to serious addiction problems and all the linked problems that entails would ever be legalised if it were discovered tomorrow?
drugs have only been in widespread use for a relatively short period of time, and have caused devastation.
No, my friend, I'm afraid it is YOU who have swallowed the trendy propaganda of the pro-drugs lobby who have pressurised this pathetic govt into softening drugs policy, flying in the face of mounting and manifold medical evidence of the harm caused. You are guilty of believing that your narrow social circle represents society as a whole (again, wholly typical of your breed) - you need to open your eyes before it is too late.
PUO,
Re-read my post that you quoted.
only a tiny proportion of adults use illegal drugs, and these are mostly to be found in two distinct groups - young urban professionals (the trendy fabled 'Notting Hill set' being a perfect example) and worthless council estate chavs.
At least 40% of my friends outside the Air Force use illegal drugs
Which would you rather work with; the guy who has the occasional joint to relax and is fresh faced the next day or the one who drinks 10 shandys a night and is hungover all next day?
With the attitudes you have both displayed and the admissions you have both made, It is my sincerest hope that the company plods that peruse these boards make every effort to track you down and expose you, extracting information from you on exactly who these 'right people' are and hunting them down too. There is NO place in the Armed Forces for illegal drug use. PERIOD.
I sincerely hope that NEITHER of you are responsible for any subordinates.
16B
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This thread has certainly divided people and judging by others comments, there clearly are two camps forming, the Pro illicit drug brigade and the Anti illicit drug alliance. I for one sit firmly in the latter.
I suggest that Helpful Stacker and Southside contact their DAPO for some much needed advice.
I also hasten to add that this turn it around "alcohol is the root of all evil" argument is a dead duck. Most people here on this forum will agree that alcohol abuse is indeed frowned upon and considered anti social. Drink Driving, most will agree,is offensive and repulsive. The people who consider the latter statements as correct are more likely to be the ones who also abhor the use of illicit drugs in HM Forces.
If someone wants to take drugs, then fine, it's up to them to suffer the consequences. The consequences being reduced to the ranks and DISMISSAL.
Talk Wrench
I suggest that Helpful Stacker and Southside contact their DAPO for some much needed advice.
I also hasten to add that this turn it around "alcohol is the root of all evil" argument is a dead duck. Most people here on this forum will agree that alcohol abuse is indeed frowned upon and considered anti social. Drink Driving, most will agree,is offensive and repulsive. The people who consider the latter statements as correct are more likely to be the ones who also abhor the use of illicit drugs in HM Forces.
If someone wants to take drugs, then fine, it's up to them to suffer the consequences. The consequences being reduced to the ranks and DISMISSAL.
Talk Wrench
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Oh my god.
I agree with southside 100% on something.
Before I start, I have never taken any illegal drugs, and would not begin if they were legalised.
Some of the people on here just parrot opinions of the Media without thinking them through.
Alcohol is without doubt the most damaging drug in human existence, no matter what criteria you choose.
Most deaths.
Most accidents.
Greatest cost. (NHS and lost work days)
Most families wrecked.
Most murders.
Most abuse. (who ever heard of someone on the weed beating their wife?)
You people are just unwilling to think about it because it would entail critically looking at your own behaviour from the past. ie flying pissed/hungover which you have all done.
Small minded hypocrits.
Nobady should fly or work near or on aircraft under the influence of any drug including alcohol
But legalise the lot. It will make no difference to the amount consumed, but will rid the world of the scum who sell them. It will also be taxable to support the NHS which deals with the inevitable problems(just like booze) There will be a lot less deaths from dodgy mixed drugs and poor quality control/concentrations
I agree with southside 100% on something.
Before I start, I have never taken any illegal drugs, and would not begin if they were legalised.
Some of the people on here just parrot opinions of the Media without thinking them through.
Alcohol is without doubt the most damaging drug in human existence, no matter what criteria you choose.
Most deaths.
Most accidents.
Greatest cost. (NHS and lost work days)
Most families wrecked.
Most murders.
Most abuse. (who ever heard of someone on the weed beating their wife?)
You people are just unwilling to think about it because it would entail critically looking at your own behaviour from the past. ie flying pissed/hungover which you have all done.
Small minded hypocrits.
Nobady should fly or work near or on aircraft under the influence of any drug including alcohol
But legalise the lot. It will make no difference to the amount consumed, but will rid the world of the scum who sell them. It will also be taxable to support the NHS which deals with the inevitable problems(just like booze) There will be a lot less deaths from dodgy mixed drugs and poor quality control/concentrations
Short Blunt Shock
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I guess you chimps can read, but you obviously are incapable of basic comprehension. I'll make it easy for you:
...BECAUSE...
DO YOU GET IT YET? Or do you need a crayon picture, oh 'enlightened' ones?
Picture a world where virtually every adult used narcotic drugs on a regular basis. Now that you have something approaching a like-for-like comparison, tell me AGAIN that:
Your argument has just disappeared up its own ar$ehole...but keep going, you're obviously desperate...
Holy sh1t, just HOW naive can you possibly be? Perhaps you think the villains who make millions of pounds every year selling drugs will just shrug their shoulders, say "Well, that's that then!" and retire quietly to the Costa Del Sol?
Carry on, by all means. You are destroying more and more of your credibility with every post...and you didn't have alot to start with...
16B
Alcohol is without doubt the most damaging drug in human existence, no matter what criteria you choose.
Most deaths.
Most accidents.
Greatest cost. (NHS and lost work days)
Most families wrecked.
Most murders.
Most abuse. (who ever heard of someone on the weed beating their wife?)
Most deaths.
Most accidents.
Greatest cost. (NHS and lost work days)
Most families wrecked.
Most murders.
Most abuse. (who ever heard of someone on the weed beating their wife?)
Virtually every adult in the Western world consumes alcohol to one degree or another, which is bound to lead to a statistically greater incidence of alcohol-related problems
Picture a world where virtually every adult used narcotic drugs on a regular basis. Now that you have something approaching a like-for-like comparison, tell me AGAIN that:
Alcohol is without doubt the most damaging drug in human existence
But legalise the lot. It will make no difference to the amount consumed, but will rid the world of the scum who sell them.
Carry on, by all means. You are destroying more and more of your credibility with every post...and you didn't have alot to start with...
16B
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well at my sqn we had 3 people kicked out due to the prescence of coke in their systems during a random drugs test.
bet they wished they had waited a couple of months before getting tested....
from a personal point of view, the last thing i want to to be working next to someone who is whacked out of their head and not knowing what they are doing. i have never tried or would ever want to try class A drugs, just working with someone whos is a bit hungover is bad enough, but i would rather work with them than someone who is drugged up!!!
bet they wished they had waited a couple of months before getting tested....
from a personal point of view, the last thing i want to to be working next to someone who is whacked out of their head and not knowing what they are doing. i have never tried or would ever want to try class A drugs, just working with someone whos is a bit hungover is bad enough, but i would rather work with them than someone who is drugged up!!!
I have to admit guys that 16 blades has made his arguement crystal clear, if you are going to try to shoot holes in it the least you could do is read it properly first!! Otherwise you are not debating his points, you are merely preaching your own gospel.
Here endth the lesson...................
Here endth the lesson...................
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Originally Posted by 16 blades
Note also that I said 'ADULTS'. Students are not adults in my eyes. They are largely arrogant kids who think they know it all, but will very quickly discover tht they do not.
Originally Posted by 16 Blades
Then you need to get some new friends. Seriously.
It seems your mind was already made up on that issue before you even read my post.
Drug use runs right through our society and is not limited to students or chavs. I judge my friends on their overall character not what they choose to do in the privacy of their own homes.
Please also note I did post the following:
In my opinion illegal drugs and Flying/Forces don't mix. I would hope that the majority of RAF personnel would be professional and strong-willed enough to turn down drugs. I have refused offers on countless occasions. It's not exactly a big deal and to be honest I wouldn't want to be friends with people who thought it was.
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My youngest son was introduced to the delights of these "non-harmful" substances at public school. Those of you who think they are harmless and acceptable can get right back in your box, you are VERY misled. If i caught anyone peddling this stuff i would quite happily do something very nasty to them. Do not condone it in any respect. I was recently at a lovely dinner there were a few so called trendy people (oxygen thieves actually), a couple of whom started snorting the white stuff and passing it around, i stood up mid-main course excused myself and left (and wont entertain their company again). There is no place for it in the armed forces, its bad enough having soldiers carrying live weapons when they are on Prozac (sp?). If you make your own free choice to do it thats fine, but DONT introduce or encourage others and LEAVE. I have seen the "non-harmful" effects of drugs first hand and they are totally "non-Harmfully" bloody destructive in every sense of the word. Persuade me otherwise NOT
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My understanding is that drinking alcohol publicly and privately is still legal.
Smoking tobacco is still legal privately but not always publicly.
Using illegal drugs is still that.......illegal whether in public or privately.
Until such time as the use of these illegal substances is made legal (heaven forbid) all offenders should be removed from our Armed Forces.
Smoking tobacco is still legal privately but not always publicly.
Using illegal drugs is still that.......illegal whether in public or privately.
Until such time as the use of these illegal substances is made legal (heaven forbid) all offenders should be removed from our Armed Forces.