F35 or Rafale? The UK and France talk.
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The press really are crap :LOL:
Perhaps the best thing to do is to say to the Americans, if you can't trust us with your sensitive and secretive information then we can't trust you to have sensitive and secretive installations in our country, and if they don't back down, tell them to shut Menwith Hill and there other secret and sensitive installations.
Bush has shown nothing but contempt for this country, and it's time he learnt that being allies works two ways.
Perhaps the best thing to do is to say to the Americans, if you can't trust us with your sensitive and secretive information then we can't trust you to have sensitive and secretive installations in our country, and if they don't back down, tell them to shut Menwith Hill and there other secret and sensitive installations.
Bush has shown nothing but contempt for this country, and it's time he learnt that being allies works two ways.
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Originally Posted by Styron
The press really are crap :LOL:
Perhaps the best thing to do is to say to the Americans, if you can't trust us with your sensitive and secretive information then we can't trust you to have sensitive and secretive installations in our country, and if they don't back down, tell them to shut Menwith Hill and there other secret and sensitive installations.
Bush has shown nothing but contempt for this country, and it's time he learnt that being allies works two ways.
Perhaps the best thing to do is to say to the Americans, if you can't trust us with your sensitive and secretive information then we can't trust you to have sensitive and secretive installations in our country, and if they don't back down, tell them to shut Menwith Hill and there other secret and sensitive installations.
Bush has shown nothing but contempt for this country, and it's time he learnt that being allies works two ways.
Anyway, don't think we'll see it myself but you never know:
http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/att...hmentid=115155
"Rafale came out better than Typhoon in at least 2 strenuous evaluations."
Not if you mean South Korea and Singapore, it didn't.
The Koreans, the Singaporeans, some of the BAE TPs (most of those buggers are tight lipped) and at least one senior Rafale TP involved in the evaluations have all indicated that Typhoon was the preferred technical solution in both cases, but that its timescales and risks were unacceptable.
In Singapore, F-15 was always going to win, and after BAE's shambolic bid performance early on, being punished by being kicked out before Rafale was a well-deserved kick in the pants.
I'd remind you that Typhoon now has 90 export orders outside the consortium, while Rafale has........... exactly none.
Though why I'm responding to anyone imbecilic enough to compare EFT with an F-16 (and who can't spell sensitive), I don't know.
Not if you mean South Korea and Singapore, it didn't.
The Koreans, the Singaporeans, some of the BAE TPs (most of those buggers are tight lipped) and at least one senior Rafale TP involved in the evaluations have all indicated that Typhoon was the preferred technical solution in both cases, but that its timescales and risks were unacceptable.
In Singapore, F-15 was always going to win, and after BAE's shambolic bid performance early on, being punished by being kicked out before Rafale was a well-deserved kick in the pants.
I'd remind you that Typhoon now has 90 export orders outside the consortium, while Rafale has........... exactly none.
Though why I'm responding to anyone imbecilic enough to compare EFT with an F-16 (and who can't spell sensitive), I don't know.
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If America doesn't want to share nuclear info fine, we could easily come up with a European Option, based on a joint French/ British detterent and it would be cheaper.
The Americans can please themselves, we don't have to pander to there every whim, and we are the only country in Europe who even makes an effort with the Americans, and still they throw it in our face.
It's time in my opinion that the UK became less dependent on the Americans.
The Americans can please themselves, we don't have to pander to there every whim, and we are the only country in Europe who even makes an effort with the Americans, and still they throw it in our face.
It's time in my opinion that the UK became less dependent on the Americans.
A320 is basically a Dassault design?
Oh Mer.....
...cure
And why, pray, did the French conspire to kill off Concorde?
And while we're at it, can someone explain exactly how and why the Rafale is a generation older than Typhoon? Now, granted it's not finished (neither is Typhoon) and it isn't as fast, but that goes to original requirements - which include the ability to operate off carriers. And if there is one design rule that has never had an exception, it is that it is extremely difficult to turn a CTOL aircraft into a cat-arrest CV aircraft.
Oh Mer.....
...cure
And why, pray, did the French conspire to kill off Concorde?
And while we're at it, can someone explain exactly how and why the Rafale is a generation older than Typhoon? Now, granted it's not finished (neither is Typhoon) and it isn't as fast, but that goes to original requirements - which include the ability to operate off carriers. And if there is one design rule that has never had an exception, it is that it is extremely difficult to turn a CTOL aircraft into a cat-arrest CV aircraft.
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To be honest, I think the US is downgrading the UK and Europe generally as it reorientates its forces towards the Middle and Far East.
As the Qinetic guy said, we no longer get the 'full spec' US kit.
As the Qinetic guy said, we no longer get the 'full spec' US kit.
Typoon 90% of Raptor at 50% of the price.
50%?
I bet the USAF wish that Raptor was coming in at only $124 m apiece......
Lazer (or is it Gegene/Fonk/Thunder?),
AESA doesn't make F-16 into a fifth generation fighter.
50%?
I bet the USAF wish that Raptor was coming in at only $124 m apiece......
Lazer (or is it Gegene/Fonk/Thunder?),
AESA doesn't make F-16 into a fifth generation fighter.
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Well exactly Roland, it's nothing to do with jingoism, it's just that I'm an aerospace journalist, so I'm more than familiar with France's track record...
But as I said, I'm not wanting a pointless argument, I was just pointing-out that some of the comments and "facts" being thrown around in this thread are rather wide of the proverbial mark
But as I said, I'm not wanting a pointless argument, I was just pointing-out that some of the comments and "facts" being thrown around in this thread are rather wide of the proverbial mark
<<it's just that I'm an aerospace journalist, so I'm more than familiar with France's track record...>>
Like how Dassault designed the A320? Or why it is villainous for the French to try to sell the Alpha Jet to the USN or India? Or that the A400M is some kind of French plot (in which case, why is it going to be assembled in Spain?)...
Seriously, I believe that you underestimate Rafale and overstate the ease of adapting Typhoon to a carrier deck.
Like how Dassault designed the A320? Or why it is villainous for the French to try to sell the Alpha Jet to the USN or India? Or that the A400M is some kind of French plot (in which case, why is it going to be assembled in Spain?)...
Seriously, I believe that you underestimate Rafale and overstate the ease of adapting Typhoon to a carrier deck.
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Spot on LowObs,
Navalising Typhoon would surely prove very difficult (Tarnish, where are you on this?) and I simply do not see it happening. Tranche 3 will probably come into service, partly replacing older Tranche a/c which may go into storage for attrition and partly replacing the GR4 (wishful thinking from a Tonka mate perhaps!!)
Rafale is already at sea and will no doubt work well once the jigsaw is complete. I'm all for buying it, even if it is just to p*ss on Bush's fire.
I think that many of us are becoming sick and tired of how the US is treating the UK. Blair shows absolutely no back bone when it comes to standing up to the US and I commend Dr Reids shot across the bow, well done that man. Now just stand by your guns and reload!
As for comparing Typhoon to the F16 Block 60, get real. The potential for expansion with Typhoon's airframe and onboard technology far out weighs anything the F16 will produce in the future. Raptor is eating up too much of the DoDs budget, hence the cuts in orders. Dollar for Dollar, I'd take Typhoon with Storm Shadow, Meteor, AMRAAM, ASRAAM etc etc any day of the week.
Navalising Typhoon would surely prove very difficult (Tarnish, where are you on this?) and I simply do not see it happening. Tranche 3 will probably come into service, partly replacing older Tranche a/c which may go into storage for attrition and partly replacing the GR4 (wishful thinking from a Tonka mate perhaps!!)
Rafale is already at sea and will no doubt work well once the jigsaw is complete. I'm all for buying it, even if it is just to p*ss on Bush's fire.
I think that many of us are becoming sick and tired of how the US is treating the UK. Blair shows absolutely no back bone when it comes to standing up to the US and I commend Dr Reids shot across the bow, well done that man. Now just stand by your guns and reload!
As for comparing Typhoon to the F16 Block 60, get real. The potential for expansion with Typhoon's airframe and onboard technology far out weighs anything the F16 will produce in the future. Raptor is eating up too much of the DoDs budget, hence the cuts in orders. Dollar for Dollar, I'd take Typhoon with Storm Shadow, Meteor, AMRAAM, ASRAAM etc etc any day of the week.
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Sometimes. I just don't get you guys. Typhoon is so much better than F-16, F-15, Rafale, every other goddam thing flying. Better than Raptor, worse than Raptor. It does this, it can't do that. If it were my money, I'd be DAMN FECKIN SURE that my NEW aircraft was a whole lot better than something designed 30 YEARS AGO! Any comparisons to F-16's and such like are really pointless. Yes, Typhoon has more POTENTIAL for expansion etc, than an F-16 Block whatever. It bloody well should have. It's 30 years newer, and how much more expensive? The real question we need to be asking, is why the yanks won't do the tecnology transfer. We have exactly the same dilemma here as you do there. But arguing that your new jet has more bells and whistles than 25 or 30 year older designs is pissing in the wind guys. The real problem is what actually gets DELIVERED to YOU, the customer in terms of capability. The older designs already have all the other stuff, asraam, amraam, G/A capability, AESA, etc. No or not much stealth, or supercruise, but hey, they can deliver. How about we compare apples with apples, when Typhoon can actually DELIVER in all it's intended roles?
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So, can anyone tell me why tech transfer is such a bog deal with JSF when it's not for, say, Trident or TLAM?
Also, why is it an issue for the UK but not, apparently, the other JSF partners?
Also, why is it an issue for the UK but not, apparently, the other JSF partners?
Last edited by Lazer-Hound; 28th Feb 2006 at 09:10.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
The UK trident missiles are leased from the USA and are manufactured, tested and serviced in the USA (though we do build our own warheads*). TLAM would, if an upgrade was required, similarily have to be shipped back to the factory to have the work done.
*One of the breakdowns in the special relationship was over nuclear weapons. After the war, even though many of the scientists involved had been British, the USA refused access to the technical information. That was the reason the Uk had to set up its own programme and develop its own weapons - a technology it still retains. Exchange of information only, grudgingly, started again after the UK exploded its own H-bomb.
*One of the breakdowns in the special relationship was over nuclear weapons. After the war, even though many of the scientists involved had been British, the USA refused access to the technical information. That was the reason the Uk had to set up its own programme and develop its own weapons - a technology it still retains. Exchange of information only, grudgingly, started again after the UK exploded its own H-bomb.
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Fine, ORAC. If sending our 'independent' deterrant back to the US for upgrades/repairs is OK, what's the big deal with doing the same for JSF? It's not as if it's our only fighter, even.
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early dog
But that's the point old chap - it's all (mostly) chattin' about the future. Get it? But then most of you lot didn't in my four years or so spent amongst you -so why should you be different? Oh, and do try and persuade Angus and wee Johnny not to throw away your hard earned dollars on that thing with pissy little wings.
G'Day
TM
Agree - given the plethora of WAG-ing and factual divergence being posted, much (not all) of the above is a pointless, anorakial, debate. But hey, don't let the truth get in the way -------.
Brit55
Far be it for me to comment on his behalf, but why would Tarnished want to tarnish his reputation by entering this particular bear pit?
But that's the point old chap - it's all (mostly) chattin' about the future. Get it? But then most of you lot didn't in my four years or so spent amongst you -so why should you be different? Oh, and do try and persuade Angus and wee Johnny not to throw away your hard earned dollars on that thing with pissy little wings.
G'Day
TM
Agree - given the plethora of WAG-ing and factual divergence being posted, much (not all) of the above is a pointless, anorakial, debate. But hey, don't let the truth get in the way -------.
Brit55
Far be it for me to comment on his behalf, but why would Tarnished want to tarnish his reputation by entering this particular bear pit?
Last edited by jindabyne; 28th Feb 2006 at 10:36.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
The review of the defence industry concluded that the UK was unlikely to ever build another aircraft by itself, but that the role of the UK aviation industry was to retain core skills by maintaining, modifying and upgrading the aircraft we operate. The shrinking size of the RAF means that has to include whatever is purchased to replace the Harrier. It also is a fact that through life costs are about 4 times purchase cost and that money needs to be spent here, not in the USA
We have a history of being let down in these matters by the USA. Skybolt, F-111 etc, and itīs no coincidence that, whilst others were buying F16s, F18s etc, we were spending more to build Jaguars and Tornadoes.
Trident was not seen as needing upgrades and, regardless, we never saw a need to go into the ICBM business. Our needed numbers are too small and there was nobody we could sell them too. There is also the probability the replacement will be a UK/Anglo-French ALCM. Same with TLAM, an off the shelf buy in small numbers with the same constraints. I have my suspicions that a longer term replacement might also be European.
The thing to realise is that jobs and industry tend to come out as higher priorities to politicians than future threats. If the choice is between the JSF, with all upgrades and repairs being done in the USA, and the Rafale with the French guaranteeing the work to BAe, the Rafale might well be chosen even if being seen as technologically inferior.
We have a history of being let down in these matters by the USA. Skybolt, F-111 etc, and itīs no coincidence that, whilst others were buying F16s, F18s etc, we were spending more to build Jaguars and Tornadoes.
Trident was not seen as needing upgrades and, regardless, we never saw a need to go into the ICBM business. Our needed numbers are too small and there was nobody we could sell them too. There is also the probability the replacement will be a UK/Anglo-French ALCM. Same with TLAM, an off the shelf buy in small numbers with the same constraints. I have my suspicions that a longer term replacement might also be European.
The thing to realise is that jobs and industry tend to come out as higher priorities to politicians than future threats. If the choice is between the JSF, with all upgrades and repairs being done in the USA, and the Rafale with the French guaranteeing the work to BAe, the Rafale might well be chosen even if being seen as technologically inferior.