Is it worth keeping military SAR?
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I have to agree with junglyAEO's comments but couldn't the same thing be said about The Red Arrows?
After all they are "just" a massive PR machine that cost big £'s a year to maintain
! At least the SAR boys (and girls) provide a service as well as good PR.
I'm not having a go at the reds but if you want to save money without loosing a service (apart from PR) then ditch the display team (Controversial)!
After all they are "just" a massive PR machine that cost big £'s a year to maintain
! At least the SAR boys (and girls) provide a service as well as good PR.I'm not having a go at the reds but if you want to save money without loosing a service (apart from PR) then ditch the display team (Controversial)!
Last edited by GodsDam; 23rd Feb 2006 at 08:53.
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I think if you asked the average Joe public, they would immediately associate all SAR with the RAF, regardless of the colour of the cab. In other words, the RAF get good PR whoever do the job. Granted that those who live on the coast might be better informed, but most of the population live inland.
I have had the pleasure of flying with both Civvy and ex mil pilots in a SAR role and IMHO the Civvy commanders are every bit as good as the ex military types.
I have had the pleasure of flying with both Civvy and ex mil pilots in a SAR role and IMHO the Civvy commanders are every bit as good as the ex military types.
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Certainly in the South West, the good PR raised by SAR is equally split between the RN and RAF. You are of course right in saying that the public has a better understanding because the population in the South West all live near the coast. That having been said there is great coverage of SAR activities in the SW. Several times a week there will be reports of SAR on the news and local papers. With such a high profile in the region and the relatively high density of SAR coverage thanks to Culdrose, Mawgan, Chivenor etc, the public would be outraged to see a decline in service due to transfer to a civilian operator. Military SAR has proved its worth, especially in its numbers, in the region on several occasions, when more then one incident needs to be attended at any one time. Just think of the huge variety of incidents that could go on at any one time. What with the fishing industry, private leisure craft, divers, shipping industry etc, there is obviously a very real demand for the services of military SAR in the SW.
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Scottishbeefer
1. Civilian SAR pilots operate with two rule books. For training and non-SAR urgent tasking we operate to CAA CAT (commercial air transport) regulations - safe single engine + standard IFR rules etc. On a declared SAR mission the rule book goes out of the window and everything is at the Captain's discretion.
2. MCA SAR pilots are now approx 70% civilian, ie non military background. They cope just the same as their military counterparts because of selection and training. Remember RN/RAF pilots were civilians before they signed up!
3. Stornoway cope very well with mountain tasking so we are not only maritime.
4. We could do with NVG's. The CAA seem to have become more flexible about this issue, so I think it's only a matter of time and the correct aircraft modifications.
2. MCA SAR pilots are now approx 70% civilian, ie non military background. They cope just the same as their military counterparts because of selection and training. Remember RN/RAF pilots were civilians before they signed up!
3. Stornoway cope very well with mountain tasking so we are not only maritime.
4. We could do with NVG's. The CAA seem to have become more flexible about this issue, so I think it's only a matter of time and the correct aircraft modifications.
Gentleman Aviator
The rule discrepancy that SAROwl mentions should also be addressed in full civilianisation, and was another factor talked about in the Ministry. Service pilots at present can train to rules and in conditions that they would use on "jobs". Ergo, a civilian on his first job may not have flown in those conditions or to those rules before.
Not a problem to change the rules I guess............
Not a problem to change the rules I guess............
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On a sort of connected theme, would be interesting to know what percentage of the JIGSAW project (BP North Sea Oil SAR) are ex mil, how much they are costing, and how efficent they are. (not to mention what their weather limits are) Also if they are largely ex mil, how much would their costs go up if the source of ex mil SAR pilots and rear crew dried up...
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"I have to agree with junglyAEO's comments but couldn't the same thing be said about The Red Arrows?"
To my knowledge this has been punted before but no politician would take that one.
retard
To my knowledge this has been punted before but no politician would take that one.
retard
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Yes, the mighty accountants are the arbiters of all...and assume because they pay, they are all knowing. Mil SAR will perish in their hands. Civ SAR is definately as professional and provides a fine service but the bean counters will whittle it down to size.
Of note, is SARowl saying that although the civ SAR train under CAA CAT rules, on ops they will extend themselves. This would be in to situations that they would not have experienced or trained for. How can this be better than the realistic training we were allowed to carry out when I was on Mil SAR? It is not safe to carry out ops with no experience of operating in testing conditions. With fewer ex mil crews available to civ SAR where is the experience to come from?
Train [as much as is possible] for the real thing.
Good luck SARBOYS everywhere.
Of note, is SARowl saying that although the civ SAR train under CAA CAT rules, on ops they will extend themselves. This would be in to situations that they would not have experienced or trained for. How can this be better than the realistic training we were allowed to carry out when I was on Mil SAR? It is not safe to carry out ops with no experience of operating in testing conditions. With fewer ex mil crews available to civ SAR where is the experience to come from?
Train [as much as is possible] for the real thing.
Good luck SARBOYS everywhere.
As I understand it, the Red Arrows are more or less self funding. That's what I was told anyway. No matter what the pro's and cons, I would like to see SAR retained in the Military, it's great PR with a life saving service.
I remember, as a small boy, sitting in Rock Park, Barnstaple when the Wessex SAR from Chivenor used to land with casualties for the local hospital. Used to draw crowds and made everyone aware of what the RAF could do. Same goes for the RN in the south west.
As an aside, watched the TV documentary series about the lifesavers on a beach in Cornwall during last summer. Used to regularly show the Coastguard helicopter on Ops. Some of the winchmen seemed veeerrrrry old, or had they just been in the sun too long??
I remember, as a small boy, sitting in Rock Park, Barnstaple when the Wessex SAR from Chivenor used to land with casualties for the local hospital. Used to draw crowds and made everyone aware of what the RAF could do. Same goes for the RN in the south west.
As an aside, watched the TV documentary series about the lifesavers on a beach in Cornwall during last summer. Used to regularly show the Coastguard helicopter on Ops. Some of the winchmen seemed veeerrrrry old, or had they just been in the sun too long??
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Wyler
Well said. But let's not forget the boys North of the border, the RN have had the UK's busiest SAR unit for the past 2 years there. Guess they'll need to work that PR machine a bit (a lot) more.
Well said. But let's not forget the boys North of the border, the RN have had the UK's busiest SAR unit for the past 2 years there. Guess they'll need to work that PR machine a bit (a lot) more.
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Having had experience of SAR operations both ashore (Lee, Portland and Culdrose) as well as embarked, I think it will be a sad day when (if) the military lose the Civilian SAR mantle. I think we will always keep a skill set for military SAR but sadly, unless we can change public opinion, Civvy SAR for the Forces is on its way out.
In some repsects I blame our PR people for this lack of understanding. Down here, we have the SAR flights at Lee and Portland (both ex-RN but now Bristows) rammed down our throats daily on the evening news. There must be at least 2/3 stories a week on both of these units on the local TV. On occassion I work in the far south west and feel lucky if any of the TV or radio stations give a mention to Chivenor or Culdrose. Whose got it right?
In some repsects I blame our PR people for this lack of understanding. Down here, we have the SAR flights at Lee and Portland (both ex-RN but now Bristows) rammed down our throats daily on the evening news. There must be at least 2/3 stories a week on both of these units on the local TV. On occassion I work in the far south west and feel lucky if any of the TV or radio stations give a mention to Chivenor or Culdrose. Whose got it right?
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Some very interesting comments so far, however nobody seems to fully explored the COMR option yet. The civil owned/military registered format for aircraft is the deal that they use at DHFS including the RAFs Search & Rescue training unit at Valley. Whilst Scottish Beefer has mentioned it is not all a bed of roses there, the concept of cost cutting by getting a civvy organisation to provide and maintain the aircraft can work - especially when deployability is not an issue. Thereafter the crews can be 100% military or a mixture of civvy & military.
The RAF SAR unit in Cyprus now also works this way with COMR aircraft, civvy support but 100% military crews.
This could also remove the issue of civvy flying restrictions. The civvy QHIs & QHCIs at DHFS (I accept at the moment they are all ex mil) can operate the aircraft to the same rules - low fly & NVG inclusive - as their mil counterparts.
Could this not be the case too for SAR throughout the UK?
Furthermore the COMR aircraft could then have RAF RESCUE or NAVY RESCUE or indeed DEFENCE RESCUE painted on the side to keep the PR people happy...
The RAF SAR unit in Cyprus now also works this way with COMR aircraft, civvy support but 100% military crews.
This could also remove the issue of civvy flying restrictions. The civvy QHIs & QHCIs at DHFS (I accept at the moment they are all ex mil) can operate the aircraft to the same rules - low fly & NVG inclusive - as their mil counterparts.
Could this not be the case too for SAR throughout the UK?
Furthermore the COMR aircraft could then have RAF RESCUE or NAVY RESCUE or indeed DEFENCE RESCUE painted on the side to keep the PR people happy...
Last edited by Spanish Waltzer; 24th Feb 2006 at 06:10.
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Yeah, forgot about the COMR issue. With more robust handling of the PFI contract, that is probably a starter - actually I believe it is/was on the table as an option now you mention it.
Concur Southside re PR and the SW England media. Not that the Lee/PO boys shouldn't get the thanks, just that we should do a bit better.
DCC (Directorate Corporate Communications - DPR of old) - why not spend some productive money on a military SAR/general helo ops telly ad? (I am standing by for JunglyAEO et al to tell me what a waste of money this would be!). Benefits? Increased recruiting/greater public awarensss/understanding/support. Hard to see the downside. (?)
Concur Southside re PR and the SW England media. Not that the Lee/PO boys shouldn't get the thanks, just that we should do a bit better.
DCC (Directorate Corporate Communications - DPR of old) - why not spend some productive money on a military SAR/general helo ops telly ad? (I am standing by for JunglyAEO et al to tell me what a waste of money this would be!). Benefits? Increased recruiting/greater public awarensss/understanding/support. Hard to see the downside. (?)
Up here at Boulmer, when they announced the closure of the station, it was the expected loss/relocation of the SAR helicopters that caused the major uproar. Being married to a local lady I can state that the yellow helicopters are part of the furniture and everyone in the region is accutely aware of its presence, the job the crews do and the service it provides.
The thought of anything else replacing it is greeted with genuine horror. Basically, I think Joe Public wants to see a miltary helicopter, yellow or grey with RAF or RN on the side. I include Coastguard in that as well.
When I asked about it around the family, they were concerned about a civilianisation due, mainly, to everyones mistrust of 'Public Services'. However unfounded their fears are, they believe that removal of the military from the equasion will inevitably lead to a reduction in service and corner cutting. That's where the PR battle will be.
I was back in Devon on holiday last year and the weather was glorious. We spent some days down on Saunton Sands and, when the Sea King flew over, people were jumping up and down and waving, cameras were out and mums and dads were telling their kids about what the helicopter was for. These were people from all over the country, not just the local (interested) community. The exact same thing happens here in Northumberland.
Do not underestimate the impact you have and the support you enjoy: keep it Military.
The thought of anything else replacing it is greeted with genuine horror. Basically, I think Joe Public wants to see a miltary helicopter, yellow or grey with RAF or RN on the side. I include Coastguard in that as well.
When I asked about it around the family, they were concerned about a civilianisation due, mainly, to everyones mistrust of 'Public Services'. However unfounded their fears are, they believe that removal of the military from the equasion will inevitably lead to a reduction in service and corner cutting. That's where the PR battle will be.
I was back in Devon on holiday last year and the weather was glorious. We spent some days down on Saunton Sands and, when the Sea King flew over, people were jumping up and down and waving, cameras were out and mums and dads were telling their kids about what the helicopter was for. These were people from all over the country, not just the local (interested) community. The exact same thing happens here in Northumberland.
Do not underestimate the impact you have and the support you enjoy: keep it Military.
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Are the civvy SAR boys fully IFR capable ?
My oppo flys for PAS and he tells me that the Police are VFR only - no requirtement for any IFR. He also tells me that the Air Ambulance guys are Day/VMC only... wish I could get that in my log book...
My oppo flys for PAS and he tells me that the Police are VFR only - no requirtement for any IFR. He also tells me that the Air Ambulance guys are Day/VMC only... wish I could get that in my log book...
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Not all Ambo's are day/vmc - Glasgae at least flies at night, believe that's single pilot IFR as it happens. The feds may be day/nt vmc?
Not sure about the MCA chaps - what's the S61 fit?
This is one of the handy things about the 'King vs 61. The radar. No probs doing a self controlled let down over the sea then running in on the scope. Makes finding a way to the inland jobs easier (not always - naturally).
SB
Not sure about the MCA chaps - what's the S61 fit?
This is one of the handy things about the 'King vs 61. The radar. No probs doing a self controlled let down over the sea then running in on the scope. Makes finding a way to the inland jobs easier (not always - naturally).
SB