Bah humbug or fair play if you can manage it? RAF and the Winter Olympics
Thread Starter
Bah humbug or fair play if you can manage it? RAF and the Winter Olympics
Just been perusing the latest propoganda on the RAF website and came across 2 articles about personnel being released from their duties for significant periods of time to go and play in the Winter Olympics.
Now admitedly, there is part of me that says fair play if you're good enough to represent you country at sport (even if the odds of getting a gong are probably about as high as the Liberals winning the next election) crack on; however, there is also part of me that is bloody annoyed that when we are being cut to the bone and stretched to breaking point that people are allowed to take a couple of years out to indulge their favourite past times whilst the rest of us fill the gaps and if lucky get all their leave entitlement. Surely these people should be making a choice at the start - sport or service? Do they want to fly/break jets/type for their country, or do they want to slide down a hill on a tea-tray? Whilst sport is an important part of service life, so is getting the job done and not shafting everyone for your own personal gain.
Having seen people in other branches 'represent their country' and then sod off after the Olympics when they had bled the RAF dry, this sort of stuff does chafe a bit! What exactly is the RAF going to get out of this??? Can't see them having anything other than a small RAF badge on their uniform and if lucky a brief mention by David Vine at 2am on a Sunday morning.
What's the general opinion - do I have a point or am I just becoming Victor Meldrew? Moral indignation ...... jealousy with a halo
Now admitedly, there is part of me that says fair play if you're good enough to represent you country at sport (even if the odds of getting a gong are probably about as high as the Liberals winning the next election) crack on; however, there is also part of me that is bloody annoyed that when we are being cut to the bone and stretched to breaking point that people are allowed to take a couple of years out to indulge their favourite past times whilst the rest of us fill the gaps and if lucky get all their leave entitlement. Surely these people should be making a choice at the start - sport or service? Do they want to fly/break jets/type for their country, or do they want to slide down a hill on a tea-tray? Whilst sport is an important part of service life, so is getting the job done and not shafting everyone for your own personal gain.
Having seen people in other branches 'represent their country' and then sod off after the Olympics when they had bled the RAF dry, this sort of stuff does chafe a bit! What exactly is the RAF going to get out of this??? Can't see them having anything other than a small RAF badge on their uniform and if lucky a brief mention by David Vine at 2am on a Sunday morning.
What's the general opinion - do I have a point or am I just becoming Victor Meldrew? Moral indignation ...... jealousy with a halo
Last edited by Melchett01; 29th Jan 2006 at 19:30.
IMHO, although the service is stripped to bare metal, we need to keep encouraging the tradition of AT/Sport as much as possible. Having guys at the olympics, and various others at the top of their field (female powerlifters anyone?
) is the only way that (by the luckyest of unlikely chances) should some muppet realise they're running us ragged and decide we need a little time to develop without being hot and sandy, we'll have any idea of want to do! Fair play to them I say. At the end of the day, one guy/gal out of 40,000, not really that bad, good bit of pr and makes the rest of us glow with pride!
) is the only way that (by the luckyest of unlikely chances) should some muppet realise they're running us ragged and decide we need a little time to develop without being hot and sandy, we'll have any idea of want to do! Fair play to them I say. At the end of the day, one guy/gal out of 40,000, not really that bad, good bit of pr and makes the rest of us glow with pride!
Red On, Green On
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Between the woods and the water
Age: 24
Posts: 6,487
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
Melchett
I think you've taken too many of your Victor Meldrew tablets. The guys/gals who have made the Olympics have worked their bits off for years to get to that level. Releasing them for a few weeks (some of which is certainly their leave) to compete at the highest level is great for them, excellent for the Services, and probably just as good for recruiting (£ for £) as the Dead Sparrows.
ISTR that the lady Flt Lt who got a Bronze in the last Winter Olympics generated plenty of +ve PR.
I think you've taken too many of your Victor Meldrew tablets. The guys/gals who have made the Olympics have worked their bits off for years to get to that level. Releasing them for a few weeks (some of which is certainly their leave) to compete at the highest level is great for them, excellent for the Services, and probably just as good for recruiting (£ for £) as the Dead Sparrows.
ISTR that the lady Flt Lt who got a Bronze in the last Winter Olympics generated plenty of +ve PR.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 734
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If they can do it, good luck to them! There is still a percentage of the Service that can just go off and do sport rather than work, that can take weekends for granted, strictly stick to office hours and - believe it or not - have refused to be called in out-of-hours. But thats another issue...
If they can get away with it and nobody can see the low 'return' well...
What does annoy is when Bloggs spends 6 months away bobsleighing or whatever, to have 'represents the UK bobsleigh team' in his ACR as a, say, rigger. It's less prevailent now, but national representation used to be a good way of getting promoted - so all the RAF got was a cpl bobsleigh team member who occasionally does rigger stuff.
I say keep it if thats what people want, but they shouldn't benefit at all professionally - in fact, it should be a neutral point.
If they can get away with it and nobody can see the low 'return' well...
What does annoy is when Bloggs spends 6 months away bobsleighing or whatever, to have 'represents the UK bobsleigh team' in his ACR as a, say, rigger. It's less prevailent now, but national representation used to be a good way of getting promoted - so all the RAF got was a cpl bobsleigh team member who occasionally does rigger stuff.
I say keep it if thats what people want, but they shouldn't benefit at all professionally - in fact, it should be a neutral point.
Thread Starter
As I said, I'm not at all against sports & AT; in fact the way things are going, getting the troops out of the office for a week is often a god-send - stops everyone killing each other in work.
What does annoy me is this representing your country lark and all the freebies that seem to come along with it. If it were only a few weeks out here and there, then fine. But it isn't that. It's often preferential postings to RAF Sleepy Hollow as Stn Cdr's dog walker or totally written off for a tour. And when they've finished indulging their passion for a couple of years, it's back to work with a glowing reputation and a report that puts them up there with God's slightly better little brother and pushing for promotion and all the accolades the AOC can muster as they live off their tea tray antics for the next 3 tours.
Airborne ARtist, IIRC, said female Flt Lt is a point in question; I believe she was given a non-effective posting, taken out of her branch and when she finally got back and had to do some work, didn't like it and banged out. Now that's what really grips!
What does annoy me is this representing your country lark and all the freebies that seem to come along with it. If it were only a few weeks out here and there, then fine. But it isn't that. It's often preferential postings to RAF Sleepy Hollow as Stn Cdr's dog walker or totally written off for a tour. And when they've finished indulging their passion for a couple of years, it's back to work with a glowing reputation and a report that puts them up there with God's slightly better little brother and pushing for promotion and all the accolades the AOC can muster as they live off their tea tray antics for the next 3 tours.
Airborne ARtist, IIRC, said female Flt Lt is a point in question; I believe she was given a non-effective posting, taken out of her branch and when she finally got back and had to do some work, didn't like it and banged out. Now that's what really grips!
Last edited by Melchett01; 29th Jan 2006 at 20:25.
Join Date: May 2003
Location: East Anglia
Posts: 68
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Simple Solution-
If you want time off for sport- get your own sports insurance and put leave in!
We are embracing all these 'best practices' i.e LEAN from civvy street- Do any civvy companies give their workforce time off for sport? If my wife asked her boss for two weeks off (paid) to play sport and keep her full holiday entitlement he'd fall off his chair laughing just before giving her the sack.
Do you really think we gain any recruits through the PR generated by our sportsmen? I wonder if anyone replied to the question 'Why do you want to join the RAF?' with the reply 'Because Rory Underwood's in the RAF'
One person in 40,000 doesn't sound much but its not one it's hundreds of man hours every week lost in this way. Time to get into the 21st century.
Noticed in one of the RAF Mags a while back a report on the RAF Police Golf Society's Tour of the USA, granted these guys probably paid for some of it from their own money- but in the service interest? Sailing expeditions to the Caribbean? etc...
I can't even get time off work to do my Pre-Gulf Heat Acclimatisation Training.
Helmet and ECBA on......
If you want time off for sport- get your own sports insurance and put leave in!
We are embracing all these 'best practices' i.e LEAN from civvy street- Do any civvy companies give their workforce time off for sport? If my wife asked her boss for two weeks off (paid) to play sport and keep her full holiday entitlement he'd fall off his chair laughing just before giving her the sack.
Do you really think we gain any recruits through the PR generated by our sportsmen? I wonder if anyone replied to the question 'Why do you want to join the RAF?' with the reply 'Because Rory Underwood's in the RAF'
One person in 40,000 doesn't sound much but its not one it's hundreds of man hours every week lost in this way. Time to get into the 21st century.
Noticed in one of the RAF Mags a while back a report on the RAF Police Golf Society's Tour of the USA, granted these guys probably paid for some of it from their own money- but in the service interest? Sailing expeditions to the Caribbean? etc...
I can't even get time off work to do my Pre-Gulf Heat Acclimatisation Training.
Helmet and ECBA on......
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Much-Binding-in-the-Marsh
Posts: 460
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Strikes me that those in the 
camp have got a balanced view of these issues and those in the 
team are consumed with jealousy or at least indignation.
Personally I don't believe anybody joins because their sporting hero is in but ... and it is a big but positive PR is worth its weight in gold and just being in the team portrays the Service as being an organisation that values excellence and hence worth joining. Importantly it also works on the mums and dads who are likely to push their nearest and dearest our way. A bit like corporate sponsorship - the value to the organisation is unquantifiable but if you stop you know it's going to work against you somehow.
camp have got a balanced view of these issues and those in the team are consumed with jealousy or at least indignation.Personally I don't believe anybody joins because their sporting hero is in but ... and it is a big but positive PR is worth its weight in gold and just being in the team portrays the Service as being an organisation that values excellence and hence worth joining. Importantly it also works on the mums and dads who are likely to push their nearest and dearest our way. A bit like corporate sponsorship - the value to the organisation is unquantifiable but if you stop you know it's going to work against you somehow.
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Temporarily missing from the Joe Louis Arena
Posts: 2,131
Received 27 Likes
on
16 Posts
I'm lucky enough to see this argument from both side.
I occasionally partake in representative competitive sports for the RAF but can see how the fat bloaters in the RAF who can't seem to lift their own bodyweight let alone do anything sweat inducing (and I don't mean contemplating a salad instead of chips) could be annoyed by someone who can actually pass the p!ss easy RAF AFT getting time away from the workplace to pursue an outside interest.
Of course there's also the F6000 to consider. As someone who doesn't like to shout about any charity work I do or take up pointless secondary duties such as deputy to the deputy SIF rep I need to do something to level the playing field and if it can be something I enjoy doing why the hell not.
Perhaps rather than moaning about folk who do sports getting promoted for their sporting prowess perhaps you should be moaning about a promotion system that seems to promote on everything but an ability to do the job one is paid to do.
I occasionally partake in representative competitive sports for the RAF but can see how the fat bloaters in the RAF who can't seem to lift their own bodyweight let alone do anything sweat inducing (and I don't mean contemplating a salad instead of chips) could be annoyed by someone who can actually pass the p!ss easy RAF AFT getting time away from the workplace to pursue an outside interest.
Of course there's also the F6000 to consider. As someone who doesn't like to shout about any charity work I do or take up pointless secondary duties such as deputy to the deputy SIF rep I need to do something to level the playing field and if it can be something I enjoy doing why the hell not.
Perhaps rather than moaning about folk who do sports getting promoted for their sporting prowess perhaps you should be moaning about a promotion system that seems to promote on everything but an ability to do the job one is paid to do.
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Earth
Posts: 97
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by The Helpful Stacker
Perhaps rather than moaning about folk who do sports getting promoted for their sporting prowess perhaps you should be moaning about a promotion system that seems to promote on everything but an ability to do the job one is paid to do.
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Temporarily missing from the Joe Louis Arena
Posts: 2,131
Received 27 Likes
on
16 Posts
Originally Posted by [email protected]
Yep, like sportsmen/women?
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Rural Somerset
Posts: 154
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fun
I think this thread should be allied to the define fun thread. I remember when.......swing lantern.......representation of your unit at any sport was an acheivement. Service, Combined Service or National representation was highly respected so I can understand that perspective as it was all part of Service life which generated pride amonst other things ( I think automatic promotion has long gone). I have seen that progressively decline over the years and in the time of LEAN etc etc it is harder to find personnel to make up teams (a disgraceful situation in my opinion)
Being long in the tooth I would be biased towards supporting this type of representation, however, whilst we are strapped for manpower etc it may be hard to explain to someone on back to back deployed ops.
As for overseas sport tours, I am certain there will be a significant personal contribution, however, I would say grab it whilst you can............because that is surely one of the "fun" elements that are being continually undermined.
Naval Ski Championships??? Never made it myself but would have loved to!!!
Off to the gym now though!
Regards,
SJ
Being long in the tooth I would be biased towards supporting this type of representation, however, whilst we are strapped for manpower etc it may be hard to explain to someone on back to back deployed ops.
As for overseas sport tours, I am certain there will be a significant personal contribution, however, I would say grab it whilst you can............because that is surely one of the "fun" elements that are being continually undermined.
Naval Ski Championships??? Never made it myself but would have loved to!!!
Off to the gym now though!
Regards,
SJ
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Greener lands
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In full agreement with Stacker RE promotion. More generally on AT though it is the apathy toward partaking that kills off a good exped - "Sod it, what a waste of drinking time/Beer money" or "What's the point of applying, I'm not a mountaineer/sailor/parachutist ect, I'll never get a place". If two weeks of adventure training helps the cohesion of a station & lifts morale then why not?
All expeds SHOULD be better advertised, not just put on orders between lists of innoculations and the duties list. By bringing new blood into AT & encouraging/informing people of places for novices some persuits would lose their elitest label.
Quiet often the reason AT isn't taken up is because there is no-one with the ability to organise the trip - if there IS someone in the unit with the skills/qualifications then they should be encouraged to come up with the goods but it might help if you offer to do some donkeywork for them!
Get involved, see the benefits for yourself & take a little pride in those around you, on your station, in your squadron, who can do great things!
All expeds SHOULD be better advertised, not just put on orders between lists of innoculations and the duties list. By bringing new blood into AT & encouraging/informing people of places for novices some persuits would lose their elitest label.
Quiet often the reason AT isn't taken up is because there is no-one with the ability to organise the trip - if there IS someone in the unit with the skills/qualifications then they should be encouraged to come up with the goods but it might help if you offer to do some donkeywork for them!
Get involved, see the benefits for yourself & take a little pride in those around you, on your station, in your squadron, who can do great things!
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Lowlevel UK
Posts: 316
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
With Strictly Jungly on Service representation and the pride of participation. A JSU near London is about to host a Boxing Show in the Gym between a RN team (heavily sprinkled with Royal Marines) and the Metropolitan Police Force. A friendly event with lots of fair play - of course.
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 336
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Regarding the civvy worlds attitude to such things, if you are of an ability to represent your country, most civvy companies would jump at the chance of a little free PR, and may even stretch to sponsorship or financial assistance on top of providing additional leave. Its not like you're talking about every employee in your company, and it shows you take pride in, and care of, your people - in and out of work!
How the average employee is treated is by the by, its all to do with perception! Equally though, the average civvy company still expects you to do your job....
How the average employee is treated is by the by, its all to do with perception! Equally though, the average civvy company still expects you to do your job....
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Farnham, Surrey
Posts: 326
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Promotion??
Back in the mid-70s I was holding at a non-flying station in West London where the rugby was quite good. I was lucky enough to play for the Station and RAF Support Command. Outside me was a Cpl PTI who was really quite useful and not slow, but who couldn't pass his Sergeants Exams for love nor money. All this and playing for a well known London Club, one of the Home nations and also the British Lions. Don't think the system works all the time.
jf
jf
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Rural Somerset
Posts: 154
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by johnfairr
Back in the mid-70s I was holding at a non-flying station in West London where the rugby was quite good. I was lucky enough to play for the Station and RAF Support Command. Outside me was a Cpl PTI who was really quite useful and not slow, but who couldn't pass his Sergeants Exams for love nor money. All this and playing for a well known London Club, one of the Home nations and also the British Lions. Don't think the system works all the time.
jf
jf
The clue in all of that was......."a Cpl PTI"!!!"
Generally though, esp. in those halcyon days if you excelled in sport then it was considered advantageous in the promotion stakes, however, as you have pointed out there were exceptions.
Flower pressing??? How I remember particular "wives" involved in this pastime (purely out of self interest I'm sure). The flower gang was led by the Stn Cdr's wife...very alien to us in the dark blue!!! Is it still alive and well at RAF L-O-O????
Back on thread.........Sport for all I say......
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: Trumpville; On the edge
Posts: 435
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Flower pressing??? How I remember particular "wives" involved in this pastime (purely out of self interest I'm sure). The flower gang was led by the Stn Cdr's wife
