Tcas
Tcas
http://www.news.mod.uk/news_headline...wsItem_id=3916
Interesting article, didn't spot too many journalistic interpretations
Interesting article, didn't spot too many journalistic interpretations
Avoid imitations
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Re: Tcas
Typical spin, not sure that fitting what is now a routinely available piece of kit is worth a safety prize though.
They forgot to mention that the other half of the TCAS equation is the requirement for a functioning transponder in the other aircraft.
However, it's a great piece of equipment that should provide a very worthwhile contribution to safety. Once you have used it you don't want to go back to flying without it
They forgot to mention that the other half of the TCAS equation is the requirement for a functioning transponder in the other aircraft.
However, it's a great piece of equipment that should provide a very worthwhile contribution to safety. Once you have used it you don't want to go back to flying without it
Re: Tcas
I'm not sure I understand this.
"Aircraft crash avoidance system developed at RAF Linton-on-Ouse."
In what way have they developed anything?
"....adapted a North Carolina company's Traffic Alert and Collision Avoidance System (TCAS) for use on its fleet of Tucanos."
What? You mean fitted TCAS to the Tucano? How is that 'developing'?
Anyone from the Tucano world care to enlighten us? I'd be interested to hear.
"Aircraft crash avoidance system developed at RAF Linton-on-Ouse."
In what way have they developed anything?
"....adapted a North Carolina company's Traffic Alert and Collision Avoidance System (TCAS) for use on its fleet of Tucanos."
What? You mean fitted TCAS to the Tucano? How is that 'developing'?
Anyone from the Tucano world care to enlighten us? I'd be interested to hear.
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Re: Tcas
Points raised so far (i'm sure they are not lost on the chaps at Linton):
TCAS is a great aid at Med and Hi Level
But it is nothing new
It only works if the other ac are transponding too - you even get mutual resolutions with Mode S
It will be of some benefit at LL but not a panacea for all ills
This was pretty awful spin-type reporting (but what else do you expect!?)
also,
Even with 2 transponding ac - cumulo-granite will interfere. A couple of years ago, 2 Hercs could have come head-to-head in the Brecon valley - despite TCAS. Luckily both ac saw the other BEFORE TCAS did on the J and did a quick 'step right'.
Therefore, there is no substitute for the Mk1 eyeball at low-level, its just that TCAS MIGHT SOMETIMES help an early viz acquisition. Again, I suspect that this is not lost on L-O-O, Valley or CFS.
TCAS is a great aid at Med and Hi Level
But it is nothing new
It only works if the other ac are transponding too - you even get mutual resolutions with Mode S
It will be of some benefit at LL but not a panacea for all ills
This was pretty awful spin-type reporting (but what else do you expect!?)
also,
Even with 2 transponding ac - cumulo-granite will interfere. A couple of years ago, 2 Hercs could have come head-to-head in the Brecon valley - despite TCAS. Luckily both ac saw the other BEFORE TCAS did on the J and did a quick 'step right'.
Therefore, there is no substitute for the Mk1 eyeball at low-level, its just that TCAS MIGHT SOMETIMES help an early viz acquisition. Again, I suspect that this is not lost on L-O-O, Valley or CFS.
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Re: Tcas
Is this TCAS or a new system... to be of real use in a low level environment you would need a real motion, not relative motion, display to allow the pilot to manoeuvre laterally (A TCAS RA to descend when at low level wouldn't be much use?). As others have said...
a. it relies on the other aircraft transponding, and
b. the SSR data from the other aircraft having been verified... (incorrect Mode C might lull a pilot into a false sense of security)
This will can, virtually, be guaranteed above F100, so will reduce the number of "close misses with airliner reports in the papers... but be much less reliable in Class G airspace below 3000ft (7000 and other special use squawks, plus microlights, gliders etc)
Can anyone put a bit more detail onto this sparse report?
a. it relies on the other aircraft transponding, and
b. the SSR data from the other aircraft having been verified... (incorrect Mode C might lull a pilot into a false sense of security)
This will can, virtually, be guaranteed above F100, so will reduce the number of "close misses with airliner reports in the papers... but be much less reliable in Class G airspace below 3000ft (7000 and other special use squawks, plus microlights, gliders etc)
Can anyone put a bit more detail onto this sparse report?
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Re: Tcas
Originally Posted by MrBernoulli
I'm not sure I understand this.
"Aircraft crash avoidance system developed at RAF Linton-on-Ouse."
In what way have they developed anything?
"....adapted a North Carolina company's Traffic Alert and Collision Avoidance System (TCAS) for use on its fleet of Tucanos."
What? You mean fitted TCAS to the Tucano? How is that 'developing'?
Anyone from the Tucano world care to enlighten us? I'd be interested to hear.
"Aircraft crash avoidance system developed at RAF Linton-on-Ouse."
In what way have they developed anything?
"....adapted a North Carolina company's Traffic Alert and Collision Avoidance System (TCAS) for use on its fleet of Tucanos."
What? You mean fitted TCAS to the Tucano? How is that 'developing'?
Anyone from the Tucano world care to enlighten us? I'd be interested to hear.
For anyone who's flown Tucano recently, it's replacing the standby AI, which is being relegated about 12" lower to where the RMI used to be. This makes flying standby AI approaches the huge embuggerance it should be
It seems to work fairly well; or at least I think so, considering it was the first time I'd seen TCAS in operation. I'd be worried that brand-new BFJT studes may assume that lookout's now taken care electronically... Tucanos don't seem to have too many near-misses, so I'm not sure why they've decided to embody it. I'm sure come the release across the fleet someone'll say!
At the end of the day, they're slower than everyone else at 250ft so anything which helps spot 420kts traffic a bit quicker sounds fairly useful to me.
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Re: Tcas
If this is an ordinary TCAS I just hope the CFS do not expect more from it than it can deliver. I have already heard KingAir METS graduates stating "Clear Left on TCAS" before commencing a turn whilst IMC. The TCAS is not designed to provide this function and the display is not suitable as a reference for lateral manoeuvres. It will protect you if the turn then results in a confliction, which may be resolved with a vertical manoeuvre.
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Re: Tcas
It certainly looked like ordinary, stand-alone TCAS. It beeps TAs in your ears, but doesn't issue RAs as far as I'm aware. With the position of the aerials I assumed blanking from the fuselage would be a bit of an issue in some directions. I'm not sure how it's going to be worked into the training, but I hope it's just used as an extra aid to safety and not a primary reference in any way.
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Re: Tcas
As has already ready said, a great 'tool in the box' at low-level
Does anyone know if the trial included a look in to terrain-linked effects on the signal? (i.e 'wave bending' effects or a LL signal bounced off of water?)
TCAS works as long as both ac are transponding - anyone remember the 2 Hawk vs. airliner Airprox somewhere in the NW of England? I seem to remember that one major factor was that the Hawk(s) weren't squawking. Has any SOP been implemented to ensure that all LL ac ARE squawking in that environment - without it, TCAS is surely only a distraction at LL?
L
kout still wins the day methinks.
Uncle G
Does anyone know if the trial included a look in to terrain-linked effects on the signal? (i.e 'wave bending' effects or a LL signal bounced off of water?)
TCAS works as long as both ac are transponding - anyone remember the 2 Hawk vs. airliner Airprox somewhere in the NW of England? I seem to remember that one major factor was that the Hawk(s) weren't squawking. Has any SOP been implemented to ensure that all LL ac ARE squawking in that environment - without it, TCAS is surely only a distraction at LL?
L
kout still wins the day methinks.Uncle G
Re: Tcas
"I assume Tucano has or will have radalt."... guffaw
ga99js, sorry old bean, not much chance of that happening anytime soon I dont think.... Afraid the low level altimeter is the mk1 eyeball... which may, or may not, interpret 250' as 250', depending on the instructor!
Elmlea, Tuc's have had their fair share of misses, but as you correctly point out, is often as not them turning into the path of something going speed of snot at low level...
ga99js, sorry old bean, not much chance of that happening anytime soon I dont think.... Afraid the low level altimeter is the mk1 eyeball... which may, or may not, interpret 250' as 250', depending on the instructor!Elmlea, Tuc's have had their fair share of misses, but as you correctly point out, is often as not them turning into the path of something going speed of snot at low level...
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Re: Tcas
As someone who has exensive experience of Tcas and understands the demands
placed under the Tucano crews in low-level conditions, all I can add is that is that is HAS to be better than nothing!
It will no doubt be employed in the TA mode throughout its use (circuits etc) but will only add, not replace, to the lookout the crew are employing. The Tucano installation is a very low-cost, not 100% ideal solution, but is a step in the right direction.
It will not counter against non-transponding targets, but will be an invaluable tool towards flight safety.
Those that criticise often have little or no experience of TCAS and assume it will either a) negate lookout or b) be useless.
The reality is that it will sit somewhere healthily in between. Fairly soon I imagine ALL traffic, gliders/microlights etc, will have to carry some form of basic transponding kit by law.
Better the rest of the military get kitted soon.
placed under the Tucano crews in low-level conditions, all I can add is that is that is HAS to be better than nothing!
It will no doubt be employed in the TA mode throughout its use (circuits etc) but will only add, not replace, to the lookout the crew are employing. The Tucano installation is a very low-cost, not 100% ideal solution, but is a step in the right direction.
It will not counter against non-transponding targets, but will be an invaluable tool towards flight safety.
Those that criticise often have little or no experience of TCAS and assume it will either a) negate lookout or b) be useless.
The reality is that it will sit somewhere healthily in between. Fairly soon I imagine ALL traffic, gliders/microlights etc, will have to carry some form of basic transponding kit by law.
Better the rest of the military get kitted soon.
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Re: Tcas
Originally Posted by Farfrompuken
Those that criticise often have little or no experience of TCAS and assume it will either a) negate lookout or b) be useless.
The risk there is that they use it not just to supplement their lookout or improve its effectiveness but to guide them when to look. It'll take a couple of spots which they get that TCAS doesn't for them to realise it's an aid rather than a replacement. I'm sure when I was there I would have been happy with a tool which told me where and when I needed to lookout if I wanted to be able to call a tally!
Of course, it all depends on how QFIs at Linton are told to teach its use; but I really hope studes don't come to lean on it too much.
Re: Tcas
I just reckon it will make solo studes paranoid.... when I was there if you saw another gent in the neighbourhood you scooted off five miles to do your aeros, for risk of p@@"!~@ng off some qfi doing s&L 1! with TCAS i would have been somewhere over the north sea!
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Re: Tcas
Elmlea:
"The risk there is that they use it not just to supplement their lookout or improve its effectiveness but to guide them when to look."
That's exactly why TCAS is so handy!
Wait till you use it before you comment!! It'll probably be most useful in the GH-style environment at Linton but has been tested with some success at Low-Level.
SOPs should prevent mis-use, provided those introducing them (the SOPs) have a decent working knowledge of TCAS.
The long and short of it is that TCAS is a handy tool, but you're not going to be flying around glued to the 'fish finder' for gawd's sake. The sooner people realise that the sooner they'll stop spouting hoop.
"The risk there is that they use it not just to supplement their lookout or improve its effectiveness but to guide them when to look."
That's exactly why TCAS is so handy!
Wait till you use it before you comment!! It'll probably be most useful in the GH-style environment at Linton but has been tested with some success at Low-Level.SOPs should prevent mis-use, provided those introducing them (the SOPs) have a decent working knowledge of TCAS.
The long and short of it is that TCAS is a handy tool, but you're not going to be flying around glued to the 'fish finder' for gawd's sake. The sooner people realise that the sooner they'll stop spouting hoop.
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Re: Tcas
re: RA at low level. TCAS will still give an RA at low level. It will not descend you into the ground as some like to believe, instead the low aircraft will be told to maintain its height while the other aircraft will be told to climb.
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Re: Tcas
Originally Posted by Farfrompuken
That's exactly why TCAS is so handy! Wait till you use it before you comment!! It'll probably be most useful in the GH-style environment at Linton but has been tested with some success at Low-Level.
Wait till you use it before you comment!! It'll probably be most useful in the GH-style environment at Linton but has been tested with some success at Low-Level.I appreciate it's useful in that it directs you where to look; but only if it's spotted them first!
I've tried it in the GH environment at Linton, and it was pretty successful. There were a couple of spots that hadn't appeared on the TCAS screen though, which are what led me to think this way. However, it did lead us to spot a few things further away than we normally would, so that's undoubtedly useful.
I didn't get the chance to try it at low level, but I'm looking forward to it when it comes in across the fleet. I'm not looking forward to the next IRT with where the standby AI's wound up though!
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Re: Tcas
Originally Posted by juliet
re: RA at low level. TCAS will still give an RA at low level. It will not descend you into the ground as some like to believe, instead the low aircraft will be told to maintain its height while the other aircraft will be told to climb.
IF a student pilot were stupid enough to think he can get away with only looking out for TCAS targets, the sight of his microlight, glider or other non-squawker that passes close by will soon make him change his mind!
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Re: Tcas
Originally Posted by ShyTorque
TCAS may or may not give RAs, depending on the mode settings! For Class G low level ops, TA is perfectly OK.
IF a student pilot were stupid enough to think he can get away with only looking out for TCAS targets, the sight of his microlight, glider or other non-squawker that passes close by will soon make him change his mind!
IF a student pilot were stupid enough to think he can get away with only looking out for TCAS targets, the sight of his microlight, glider or other non-squawker that passes close by will soon make him change his mind!
I'm sure some student pilots will rely on TCAS, and it'll take the first tally which TCAS didn't identify to stop them doing that. But, it'll be a great safety tool at LL so I won't complain. I'm pretty sure the TCAS system's replicated front to back; so the back seat can switch it off if need be anyway
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Re: Tcas
It will not descend you into the ground as some like to believe
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Re: Tcas
Elmlea,
You're chasing your own tail here, sounding far beyond your years than your title suggests
Let me spell it out for you:
TA: Traffic advisory. Lets you know graphically where traffic is.
RA: Resolution advisory. Provides commands via VSI to achieve vertical separation.
Tucano system will not be linked to VSI as far as I know; it appears to be a standalone dispay. Therefore, It won't be capable of RA. Even if it were, you could select TA mode to avoid nuiscance alerts (e.g. in circuit etc....).
As I mentioned earlier, it is a tool to ASSIST lookout, not replace it. YOU WILL NOT BE FLYING ALONG STARING AT THE FISHFINDER UNLESS YOU ARE TOTALLY STUPID.
The flight regimes that the Tucano operates in at med level will be where it benefits the most (microlites et al no squawking lower down etc).
Wait till you've got a tad of time on the kit, then by all means let us know what you think, but to comment with no knowledge is a tad churlish
And another thing....don't bother switching it off-you'd be a tool to do so.
You're chasing your own tail here, sounding far beyond your years than your title suggests
Let me spell it out for you:
TA: Traffic advisory. Lets you know graphically where traffic is.
RA: Resolution advisory. Provides commands via VSI to achieve vertical separation.
Tucano system will not be linked to VSI as far as I know; it appears to be a standalone dispay. Therefore, It won't be capable of RA. Even if it were, you could select TA mode to avoid nuiscance alerts (e.g. in circuit etc....).
As I mentioned earlier, it is a tool to ASSIST lookout, not replace it. YOU WILL NOT BE FLYING ALONG STARING AT THE FISHFINDER UNLESS YOU ARE TOTALLY STUPID.
The flight regimes that the Tucano operates in at med level will be where it benefits the most (microlites et al no squawking lower down etc).
Wait till you've got a tad of time on the kit, then by all means let us know what you think, but to comment with no knowledge is a tad churlish
And another thing....don't bother switching it off-you'd be a tool to do so.