RN application-Pilot/Obs
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RN application-Pilot/Obs
Hi everyone,
I'm in the process of applying to the RN for the second time as a Pilot, at present I have Warfare down as a second choice.
The first time I passed the aptitudes, but narrowly failed AIB.
I'm also seriously considering applying as an Observer as a second choice with Warfare as a third, as it appears to be a very rewarding career. However, I have a few questions:
What are the promotion prospects like for an Observer? If I did join the FAA, I'd be looking to make a full career out of it (obviously if I was considered suitable!). Also, if for whatever reason I left the FAA, what would the employment prospects be like?
I've heard a few rumours from people I've met over the years (some of whom are current serving pilots), that those who put Observer down as a second choice often get selected as observer purely to fill quotas.
Can anyody shed any light on this? or is it a load of rubbish?
I'd still love to do be an Observer and Officer, but wouldn't want to miss out on my first choice if I was good enough.
Finally, I've heard talk (both on this website and elsewhere) that Observers are put through flying grading to see if they have single seat fast jet potential. Is there any truth in this?
I've had a search on this forum, and found many useful posts, but none which answer these questions.
Any help would be greatly appreciated
Many Thanks.
I'm in the process of applying to the RN for the second time as a Pilot, at present I have Warfare down as a second choice.
The first time I passed the aptitudes, but narrowly failed AIB.
I'm also seriously considering applying as an Observer as a second choice with Warfare as a third, as it appears to be a very rewarding career. However, I have a few questions:
What are the promotion prospects like for an Observer? If I did join the FAA, I'd be looking to make a full career out of it (obviously if I was considered suitable!). Also, if for whatever reason I left the FAA, what would the employment prospects be like?
I've heard a few rumours from people I've met over the years (some of whom are current serving pilots), that those who put Observer down as a second choice often get selected as observer purely to fill quotas.
Can anyody shed any light on this? or is it a load of rubbish?
I'd still love to do be an Observer and Officer, but wouldn't want to miss out on my first choice if I was good enough.
Finally, I've heard talk (both on this website and elsewhere) that Observers are put through flying grading to see if they have single seat fast jet potential. Is there any truth in this?
I've had a search on this forum, and found many useful posts, but none which answer these questions.
Any help would be greatly appreciated
Many Thanks.
Last edited by Friendly fire-isn't; 4th Jan 2006 at 01:36.
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Re: RN application-Pilot/Obs
If you really want pilot above all else then you'll have to stick to your guns and tell the AIB, sweeten the pill with something stomach churning like "I want to an officer Sir, but in the premier air force - the FAA" You're right about quota filling - it's the AIB's job!
Chances of going aircrew from fishhead (warfare) okay but not guaranteed. Chances of going P from O negligible. One O did go FJ (now on GR7) but he is the absolute exception - go O with this idea in mind and you will be very disappointed. Employment post mob - have you seen many adverts asking for observers?!
Promotion prospects (Lt Cdr and beyond) are entirely at the whim of the service need and your personal merit. Vague but true. FTC will increase the chances but CC is not unheard of.
The main thing is to pass your (almost certainly final) AIB - then at least you'll have some choices. Make sure you've actioned any advice they gave you last time. Make sure you're up on the current and future navy, warfare generally - the fashion is for expeditionary in the littoral with either joint (more than one service) and/or combined (more than one country) forces and current affairs of course - what's your opinion on NATO vs EU force packages? etc. Don't worry about offending your team mates - volunteer first to be spokesman. Be dynamic but not arrogant (?!). Look interested in their crusty old stories!
Good luck - if you get in, leave a post here and you can kick back 10% of your flying pay to me!!!
Chances of going aircrew from fishhead (warfare) okay but not guaranteed. Chances of going P from O negligible. One O did go FJ (now on GR7) but he is the absolute exception - go O with this idea in mind and you will be very disappointed. Employment post mob - have you seen many adverts asking for observers?!
Promotion prospects (Lt Cdr and beyond) are entirely at the whim of the service need and your personal merit. Vague but true. FTC will increase the chances but CC is not unheard of.
The main thing is to pass your (almost certainly final) AIB - then at least you'll have some choices. Make sure you've actioned any advice they gave you last time. Make sure you're up on the current and future navy, warfare generally - the fashion is for expeditionary in the littoral with either joint (more than one service) and/or combined (more than one country) forces and current affairs of course - what's your opinion on NATO vs EU force packages? etc. Don't worry about offending your team mates - volunteer first to be spokesman. Be dynamic but not arrogant (?!). Look interested in their crusty old stories!
Good luck - if you get in, leave a post here and you can kick back 10% of your flying pay to me!!!
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Re: RN application-Pilot/Obs
FF,
AIB/Career Choice
If you want to be a pilot go for it. We desparately need guys/girls with FJ potential and for any other stream for that matter. That said if your aggregate scores are not good enough for AIB to push you thorugh the pilot pipeline I would suggest Obs is a better 2nd option than Warfare (I speak as one and am happy to take PM's on any queries you may have). Yes you can sub-specialise but your chances are NOT as good. If you go Warfare you need to have exceptional aptitude scores, have the agreement of your branch manager to release you from main specialisation, and then go into a 'cake split' from which a very small number from a vast pool of volunteers is chosen - last figures were 2 O's and 2 P's per year!!
The age for starting flying training as a sub-spec is also lower due to career compression and there are a number of cse's you need to complete post BRNC beforehand, thus if you are a grad things get extremely tight.
Yes you need to sell yourself as an Officer first but remember you also want to Fly Navy and that should be as either P or O.
Oh nearly forgot - yes some Obs have been through pilot grading and are in the pilot system. This is currently a trial and may well broaden. I believe the guys are doing quite well however should they not make it down the FJ route the retread path for them is backstreamed to Obs and not rotary pilot as is the case for the genuine ab initio pilot entry.
Career Propsects
Now as good as any branch if you show the ability and willingness to climb the ladder. However be realistic - not everyone can be 1st Sea Lord! CC is automatic from IC at the moment and is an opt out. Further selection to FTC is based on merit and service need.
After the RN
Pilots - airlines although right now I don't think the uptake is too strong but won't effect you for some time!
Obs - Plenty of aviation related jobs or good management opportunities. As SB says - aint many ads for airborne warriors in the back of the Times!
Good luck!!
AIB/Career Choice
If you want to be a pilot go for it. We desparately need guys/girls with FJ potential and for any other stream for that matter. That said if your aggregate scores are not good enough for AIB to push you thorugh the pilot pipeline I would suggest Obs is a better 2nd option than Warfare (I speak as one and am happy to take PM's on any queries you may have). Yes you can sub-specialise but your chances are NOT as good. If you go Warfare you need to have exceptional aptitude scores, have the agreement of your branch manager to release you from main specialisation, and then go into a 'cake split' from which a very small number from a vast pool of volunteers is chosen - last figures were 2 O's and 2 P's per year!!
The age for starting flying training as a sub-spec is also lower due to career compression and there are a number of cse's you need to complete post BRNC beforehand, thus if you are a grad things get extremely tight.
Yes you need to sell yourself as an Officer first but remember you also want to Fly Navy and that should be as either P or O.
Oh nearly forgot - yes some Obs have been through pilot grading and are in the pilot system. This is currently a trial and may well broaden. I believe the guys are doing quite well however should they not make it down the FJ route the retread path for them is backstreamed to Obs and not rotary pilot as is the case for the genuine ab initio pilot entry.
Career Propsects
Now as good as any branch if you show the ability and willingness to climb the ladder. However be realistic - not everyone can be 1st Sea Lord! CC is automatic from IC at the moment and is an opt out. Further selection to FTC is based on merit and service need.
After the RN
Pilots - airlines although right now I don't think the uptake is too strong but won't effect you for some time!
Obs - Plenty of aviation related jobs or good management opportunities. As SB says - aint many ads for airborne warriors in the back of the Times!
Good luck!!
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Re: RN application-Pilot/Obs
Bigtop, I was curious about your comments regarding Obs being streamed on pilots cse for FJ and not rotary. Is this because the RN is short of FJ pilots but chokers with rotary pilots? If so, why have the RN not considered restreaming rotary pilots to FJ – I presume they would more likely to succeed than Obs. Or is there another reason for Obs being streamed for FJ?
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Re: RN application-Pilot/Obs
Wise words from BT. However, I would restress that only one Obs has gone through the FJ pipeline, and that was exceptional - don't plan your RN career on it!
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Re: RN application-Pilot/Obs
A lot of the zoomies are in fact ex rotary guys who do the 309 crse to go fast jet after a tour or two front line rotary. They are normally sent after it is proved that their willies are too small to effectively fly an angry palm tree
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Re: RN application-Pilot/Obs
GB,
Its a bit statistical. If we have 60 pilots of whom we anticipate 10 will go FJ then 50 go RW. Unfortunately we haven't achieved the notional 10 FJ to the end and somewhere along the FJ pipeline they've been chopped and then restreamed RW - cos they've obviously got good/excellent potential for that. Thus the 50 RW now become 54 say. Remember in the RN its only a single seat recommend we'll accept for FJ. Yes I know there a few exceptions but generally if you're dark blue and get a twin seat FJ recommend its off to Shawbs for an intro to the Squirrel.
Hence the decision that for those guys who were originally accepted as Obs but trialled on the FJ route it was deemed to keep a sensible balance if they didn't make it to return to original branch ie Obs. Yep they probably fit the good/ex RW bracket but it would be further constipating the pipeline.
Eventually we may go full circle and recruit 'aircrew' and stream post grading rather than at AIB based on FATS.
DM All sign on for an Initial Career which is 12 yrs and currently is an automatic pull through to CC which is 16 unless you opt out. I think the new pension has changed things a little in that you can now serve 18 yrs or until 40 on the CC with AFPS 05. But that's another minefield.
Its a bit statistical. If we have 60 pilots of whom we anticipate 10 will go FJ then 50 go RW. Unfortunately we haven't achieved the notional 10 FJ to the end and somewhere along the FJ pipeline they've been chopped and then restreamed RW - cos they've obviously got good/excellent potential for that. Thus the 50 RW now become 54 say. Remember in the RN its only a single seat recommend we'll accept for FJ. Yes I know there a few exceptions but generally if you're dark blue and get a twin seat FJ recommend its off to Shawbs for an intro to the Squirrel.
Hence the decision that for those guys who were originally accepted as Obs but trialled on the FJ route it was deemed to keep a sensible balance if they didn't make it to return to original branch ie Obs. Yep they probably fit the good/ex RW bracket but it would be further constipating the pipeline.
Eventually we may go full circle and recruit 'aircrew' and stream post grading rather than at AIB based on FATS.
DM All sign on for an Initial Career which is 12 yrs and currently is an automatic pull through to CC which is 16 unless you opt out. I think the new pension has changed things a little in that you can now serve 18 yrs or until 40 on the CC with AFPS 05. But that's another minefield.
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Re: RN application-Pilot/Obs
Original 'poster'
If you wanna fly, stick to your flying preference. FJ or RW is a way down the line. I just got in to the RN as P after a long time trying for both light and dark blue. Just go for it, if you don't make it it wasn't meant to be. Take heart from the fact that now is a good time to apply as RN P as competition is apparently relatively low (well, they let a tw*t like me in anyway!).
Good luck, just don't think about it too much
fanois
If you wanna fly, stick to your flying preference. FJ or RW is a way down the line. I just got in to the RN as P after a long time trying for both light and dark blue. Just go for it, if you don't make it it wasn't meant to be. Take heart from the fact that now is a good time to apply as RN P as competition is apparently relatively low (well, they let a tw*t like me in anyway!).
Good luck, just don't think about it too much
fanois
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Re: RN application-Pilot/Obs
Many thanks everyone for all your replies!
scottishbeefer: You've pretty much confirmed all that I've heard with regards to Observers. with regards to AIB, I asked for feedback when I was there first time round, and received some feedback. Their biggest criticisms were lack of Naval knowledge, and lack of maturity (I'd just turned 18! I'm now 22) Since then I've swatted up, and also spent a few year on my local UAS and got stuck in there, to help develop my qualities.
That could be a nice little earner!
Bigtop: Thanks for your comments, if I got in as Warfare, I'd probably do it with the intention of making a career from it, and that a cross-over would be a bonus!
Fanois: Also thanks, I'm applying to the RAF too (as I'm a UAS guy), as pilot only. No other ground jobs interest me, and the other aircrew branches I could always apply to the year after.
I have one more question if you don't mind.
What sort of level would you have to achieve in the aptitudes and AIB in order to be sucessful? I passed Pilot and Observer aptitudes last time and just scraped through on ATC, I have the scores and pass marks, but other than that, it means nothing to me! I don't know whether they would be considered competitive or not. Also, what about AIB, in todays climate, do you need a very good pass, or is just a "pass" good enough?
Thanks again.
scottishbeefer: You've pretty much confirmed all that I've heard with regards to Observers. with regards to AIB, I asked for feedback when I was there first time round, and received some feedback. Their biggest criticisms were lack of Naval knowledge, and lack of maturity (I'd just turned 18! I'm now 22) Since then I've swatted up, and also spent a few year on my local UAS and got stuck in there, to help develop my qualities.
if you get in, leave a post here and you can kick back 10% of your flying pay to me!!!
Bigtop: Thanks for your comments, if I got in as Warfare, I'd probably do it with the intention of making a career from it, and that a cross-over would be a bonus!
Fanois: Also thanks, I'm applying to the RAF too (as I'm a UAS guy), as pilot only. No other ground jobs interest me, and the other aircrew branches I could always apply to the year after.
I have one more question if you don't mind.
What sort of level would you have to achieve in the aptitudes and AIB in order to be sucessful? I passed Pilot and Observer aptitudes last time and just scraped through on ATC, I have the scores and pass marks, but other than that, it means nothing to me! I don't know whether they would be considered competitive or not. Also, what about AIB, in todays climate, do you need a very good pass, or is just a "pass" good enough?
Thanks again.
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Re: RN application-Pilot/Obs
FFI,
The level of your score is only relevant when we have lots of applicants when we then take the cream off the top. Needless to say as BT indicates that is not currently the case and you happen to be going to the AIB at the lowest point in the recruiting cycle.
Just do your best and don't worry about scores (especially for ATC, which doesn't count toward the other two). On completion the TSO will give a very sound idea of your likelihood for selection after all medical issues have been dealt with.
Good Luck.
Si
The level of your score is only relevant when we have lots of applicants when we then take the cream off the top. Needless to say as BT indicates that is not currently the case and you happen to be going to the AIB at the lowest point in the recruiting cycle.
Just do your best and don't worry about scores (especially for ATC, which doesn't count toward the other two). On completion the TSO will give a very sound idea of your likelihood for selection after all medical issues have been dealt with.
Good Luck.
Si
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Re: RN application-Pilot/Obs
Thanks BigTop.
FriendlyFire- have you heard of POACs? Basically you get to go and spend a few days at one of the Naval air stations getting a tour round and the chance to meet serving personnel. Maybe even a flight or sim ride.
Is that the case at the beginning of every year (ie January time) or is it just recently?
FriendlyFire- have you heard of POACs? Basically you get to go and spend a few days at one of the Naval air stations getting a tour round and the chance to meet serving personnel. Maybe even a flight or sim ride.
you happen to be going to the AIB at the lowest point in the recruiting cycle
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Re: RN application-Pilot/Obs
Having done a sixth form schol and FS, I first applied for an RAF bursary at 18, got offered engineer, turned it down and went to SUAS as a VR pilot. Despite mediocre flying scores (got to nav-2 then quit, was that or fail flying AND my degree) i got the nod from the navy at 23. The RAF offered me WSO, but couldn't consider me for pilot as due to astigmatism (Navy: Different rules, i was borderline). That's not to say i definately would have got in.
apt tests 136 for pilot and 130 for nav with the airforce, the navy i'm told interpret the the same numbers slightly differently. I've had (selection)people tell me those scores are at least reasonable. Some said competitive.
Nail the maths and number memory before you to the tests, get aptitude test books etc. This applies for the paper tests you do at AIB. The RAF offered me WSO, but couldn't consider me for pilot as due to astigmatism (Navy: Different rules, i was borderline). Basically, do everything you swore to do to prepare after dissappointment the last time!
Looking to AIB, 'Strike from the Sea' by Ian Ballantyne is a good book to read about the navy since ww2, raises awareness. Just prepare well. Confidence is all.
Don't be disheartened if you f*ck part up - my planning ex (paper one) was atrocious and they told me so but i still got in. Just press on and nail the rest. The monkey shall leave your back!
I've a couple SUAS mates who didn't get into the RAF in the recently passed recruiting lull and went Navy pilot successfully.
Good luck, PM me if you've any more questions... I've done cranwell three times (never failed but didn't necessarily get what i wanted!) and AIB once!
fanois
apt tests 136 for pilot and 130 for nav with the airforce, the navy i'm told interpret the the same numbers slightly differently. I've had (selection)people tell me those scores are at least reasonable. Some said competitive.
Nail the maths and number memory before you to the tests, get aptitude test books etc. This applies for the paper tests you do at AIB. The RAF offered me WSO, but couldn't consider me for pilot as due to astigmatism (Navy: Different rules, i was borderline). Basically, do everything you swore to do to prepare after dissappointment the last time!
Looking to AIB, 'Strike from the Sea' by Ian Ballantyne is a good book to read about the navy since ww2, raises awareness. Just prepare well. Confidence is all.
Don't be disheartened if you f*ck part up - my planning ex (paper one) was atrocious and they told me so but i still got in. Just press on and nail the rest. The monkey shall leave your back!
I've a couple SUAS mates who didn't get into the RAF in the recently passed recruiting lull and went Navy pilot successfully.
Good luck, PM me if you've any more questions... I've done cranwell three times (never failed but didn't necessarily get what i wanted!) and AIB once!
fanois
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Re: RN application-Pilot/Obs
Ok. My advice would be (as a chopped RAF pilot gone dark blue and love it) to keep your options open. Remember - you're there to be selected as an OFFICER first, aircrew second. The path is long, and strewn with cowpats from the devil's own satanic herd. However...the RN's use of grading means (from all my mates' experience) that should you do well in grading, you're a lot less likely to get chopped at JEFTS and therefore a bit more likely to make it overall. Being an O is massively challenging. Never, ever see it as less than being a pilot, or easier, or anything like that. The chop rate is generally a lot higher. Warfare is extremely demanding at times, and very challenging. Good luck to you whatever you get, stay confident but not cocky at AIB. Be forthright, state your ambitions and support the team while remaining prominent.
Crack on lofty!
BL
Crack on lofty!
BL
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Re: RN application-Pilot/Obs
I am pretty sure that the RN will no longer accept anyone who does not pass for both P&O since the cost of basic training (BRNC etc) is lost and allows fewer subsequent options should that person fail during flying training.
You might as well forget any notion of joining as an observer and transferring to pilot later, though there are a handfull of examples, it almost never happens.
Good luck anyway, it is a fantastic career!
You might as well forget any notion of joining as an observer and transferring to pilot later, though there are a handfull of examples, it almost never happens.
Good luck anyway, it is a fantastic career!
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Re: RN application-Pilot/Obs
Thanks again for your replies-they're greatly appreciated.
DMackie, I'm trying to get a few visits to Naval bases arranged through my AFCO. On my UAS, despite being part of the RAF, I've had a chance to visit a few naval bases, and also got a chance to chat to a few ex rotary guys going through FJ training at Valley a few months back.
My aptitude scores aren't quite as high as yours Fanois, I'll just have to nail AIB and see if they let me in!
Does anyone know if the Navy count the shorter Flying Scholarship aptitude test as one attempt at the aptitude tests?
I did a flying scholarship with the RAF many years ago, and when I took the full set of tests, I was told that the flying scholarship tests counted as my first attempt. I've passed the full battery of Pilot and Obs tests, but it'd be nice to have another shot at them to improve my scores.
Fanois: I've sent you a PM.
Thanks again.
DMackie, I'm trying to get a few visits to Naval bases arranged through my AFCO. On my UAS, despite being part of the RAF, I've had a chance to visit a few naval bases, and also got a chance to chat to a few ex rotary guys going through FJ training at Valley a few months back.
My aptitude scores aren't quite as high as yours Fanois, I'll just have to nail AIB and see if they let me in!
Does anyone know if the Navy count the shorter Flying Scholarship aptitude test as one attempt at the aptitude tests?
I did a flying scholarship with the RAF many years ago, and when I took the full set of tests, I was told that the flying scholarship tests counted as my first attempt. I've passed the full battery of Pilot and Obs tests, but it'd be nice to have another shot at them to improve my scores.
Fanois: I've sent you a PM.
Thanks again.
Re: RN application-Pilot/Obs
'tis a long time since I did it and I was only 18 but when told my scores for P and O were about equal and would I accept O I said (and thus shot myself in the foot) I only want to be a naval officer.
Thus I ended up an O which turned out to be a challenging job and one I enjoyed enormously. However I always regreted not getting a shot at the sharp end and eventually resigned to spend the last few decades at the front end of a commercial jet.
So to reinforce what has been said, be carefull what you say. Their Lordships need backseaters and volunteers are always better than pressed men!
Thus I ended up an O which turned out to be a challenging job and one I enjoyed enormously. However I always regreted not getting a shot at the sharp end and eventually resigned to spend the last few decades at the front end of a commercial jet.
So to reinforce what has been said, be carefull what you say. Their Lordships need backseaters and volunteers are always better than pressed men!
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Re: RN application-Pilot/Obs
Does anyone know the flying aptitude marks required to join the Navy as a pilot compared to the RAF? I have looked on this forum and found a great deal of information regarding the RAF pass marks, but not so much for the FAA. Any help would be greatly appreciated.
James
James