Why are people leaving in droves ?
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Why are people leaving in droves ?
I put this initially on the "Exit Levels?" Thread but in the end it was just a rant, not really applicable to that thread so ...
.... Why are people leaving in droves ?
I think you will find that there are many reasons why aircrew, not just pilots, are leaving at their exit points of late and it is a trend that will probably continue in the future.
The airlines have been and probably still are the attractive alternative to service life. In the past 3 years I have seen many experienced colleagues leave with nothing but rosy stories of how much greener it is in civvy street, some even leaving without a firm offer of a job but with the expectation of future employment. There have been one or two exceptions although the reasons for their lack of success may be more down to lack of a "bit of get up and go" and a false premise that the transition to civvy street will be an easy one, not needing full commitment.
There is no real pride anymore in being a service pilot. There is no drive to strive for excellence, highlighted by the appathy offered when I wanted to get my A2. Not that I needed my A2 to do my job but I felt it was a worthy qualification to get. Others could not be bothered to staff it as it was too difficult to organize.
So what will be left? Already it can be seen that all the experience has gone. There are first tourist captains now instructing! (when I was a co they were third or fourth tourists!). The current crop of copilots and captains are not getting the experience that the older generation had. The current crop are being short changed at EFT, AFT and now on the front line. It is this that is unsustainable.
This is reflected up the command chain as well. There is disgruntlement at the unfairness of the CS and the PA streams. Why remain keen for promotion when you are going to to get paid less by staying on a career track?
The new pension scheme and the narrow timespan allowed to decide whether to accept new terms can only push uncertain individuals to go. How can any 30 year old know what his circumstances will be at his 38 yr point, or his 40 yr point if he is now on a SSC?
Finally, and I know it has all been said before many times throughout this forum, who is going to have to sort all this mayhem out? It will be the individuals that elect to stay. Staying in will not be the coushy option that so many in the past expected it to be. The weight of captains responsibility is only going to get heavier, the expectation will be immense. In only 5 yrs time it will be those first tourists who are not getting the grounding they deserve now, who will be having to make the same decisions as the rest of us.
It would be nice if it were a more difficult choice than it is just now
.... Why are people leaving in droves ?
I think you will find that there are many reasons why aircrew, not just pilots, are leaving at their exit points of late and it is a trend that will probably continue in the future.
The airlines have been and probably still are the attractive alternative to service life. In the past 3 years I have seen many experienced colleagues leave with nothing but rosy stories of how much greener it is in civvy street, some even leaving without a firm offer of a job but with the expectation of future employment. There have been one or two exceptions although the reasons for their lack of success may be more down to lack of a "bit of get up and go" and a false premise that the transition to civvy street will be an easy one, not needing full commitment.
There is no real pride anymore in being a service pilot. There is no drive to strive for excellence, highlighted by the appathy offered when I wanted to get my A2. Not that I needed my A2 to do my job but I felt it was a worthy qualification to get. Others could not be bothered to staff it as it was too difficult to organize.
So what will be left? Already it can be seen that all the experience has gone. There are first tourist captains now instructing! (when I was a co they were third or fourth tourists!). The current crop of copilots and captains are not getting the experience that the older generation had. The current crop are being short changed at EFT, AFT and now on the front line. It is this that is unsustainable.
This is reflected up the command chain as well. There is disgruntlement at the unfairness of the CS and the PA streams. Why remain keen for promotion when you are going to to get paid less by staying on a career track?
The new pension scheme and the narrow timespan allowed to decide whether to accept new terms can only push uncertain individuals to go. How can any 30 year old know what his circumstances will be at his 38 yr point, or his 40 yr point if he is now on a SSC?
Finally, and I know it has all been said before many times throughout this forum, who is going to have to sort all this mayhem out? It will be the individuals that elect to stay. Staying in will not be the coushy option that so many in the past expected it to be. The weight of captains responsibility is only going to get heavier, the expectation will be immense. In only 5 yrs time it will be those first tourists who are not getting the grounding they deserve now, who will be having to make the same decisions as the rest of us.
It would be nice if it were a more difficult choice than it is just now
At the risk of being accused (yet again) of being a boring old dinosaur, perhaps it would be appropriate to compare the way the RAF did business 10 years ago compared with the 'just about good enough - it'll do' mentality of today.
I was once at one of Sir John Allison's excellent Waddington chats some years ago. When a chum (now flying for Virgin) told him that the reason he was leaving was that we'd been told that we were no longer to train for excellence, merely for adequacy, Sir John said that was nonsense and asked where it came from.
"Wg Cdr 38 Gp STANEVAL" came the answer......
I was considering going for an A1 QFI Cat and 'A' Cat in AT, but became so disillusioned that instead I took the pins out of the black-and-yellow, before giving it a good hard pull some months later.
I was once at one of Sir John Allison's excellent Waddington chats some years ago. When a chum (now flying for Virgin) told him that the reason he was leaving was that we'd been told that we were no longer to train for excellence, merely for adequacy, Sir John said that was nonsense and asked where it came from.
"Wg Cdr 38 Gp STANEVAL" came the answer......
I was considering going for an A1 QFI Cat and 'A' Cat in AT, but became so disillusioned that instead I took the pins out of the black-and-yellow, before giving it a good hard pull some months later.
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Leaving
Left six months ago.
Work less hours, get paid more, fly more.
Yes the flying isn't as much fun but other elements of the job are enjoyable.
Stress levels have fallen through the floor!
Work less hours, get paid more, fly more.
Yes the flying isn't as much fun but other elements of the job are enjoyable.
Stress levels have fallen through the floor!
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People are leaving in droves, because they are fed up of being in Basrah, fed up of being herded to/from Basrah 4 times a year, and can see no end in sight.
I don't think things will improve either. Certainly for the AT (my) fleet, the current op tempo is here to stay.
P.S. 3 1/2 weeks to do!!!
I don't think things will improve either. Certainly for the AT (my) fleet, the current op tempo is here to stay.
P.S. 3 1/2 weeks to do!!!
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Sounds Familiar
As someone with 4 years left to his 38 point, having been on the front line without a break since finishing flying training, I can only agree with all the above.
I have loved my time in the RAF, even the bad times often. But the going away (even to Basrah for 4 months every year), is not what is going to make me almost certainly leave at my exit date. The main driver for me to leave is the lack of trust that i have in the heirarchy any more, be it their Air-Ships all the way down to Sqn Ldr level on the Sqn. Some people are still trying incredibly hard to keep the Sqns running and the people happy, but they are being foiled at almost every turn by the Arse-licking Chimps that got promoted not for flying ability or any competency at leadership (remember that?), but by jumping through the correct hoops of secondary duties/management speak and shafting others for their own benefit. They have continued to shaft others since, due to lack of ability to do the jobs that they have been promoted into, or sheer determination to jump up to the next level again.
We are in situations across the RAF, not just in my fleet, where there is no experience left on the frontline other than the odd PA Sqn Ldr in their 50s who are all coming up to retirement in the next few years and are irreplaceable. Not only that but we seem to have reached a crisis of trust in the RAF in a downwards sense. Who else can remember being a first tourist aircraft captain and being trusted to take an aircraft and crew off to some other part of the continent without having to take an exec with you to hold your hand. Even the experienced aviators amongst us are questioned at every turn about every decision...Why did you land early?, why did you dump fuel? etc. etc.
Anyway, enough of a rant from me, someone elses turn I think, anyway I will leave you with a quote from General George C Marshall (I believe it was him , but may be wrong)......
"The quickest way to lose the trust of your subordinates is not to trust them in the first place"
I have loved my time in the RAF, even the bad times often. But the going away (even to Basrah for 4 months every year), is not what is going to make me almost certainly leave at my exit date. The main driver for me to leave is the lack of trust that i have in the heirarchy any more, be it their Air-Ships all the way down to Sqn Ldr level on the Sqn. Some people are still trying incredibly hard to keep the Sqns running and the people happy, but they are being foiled at almost every turn by the Arse-licking Chimps that got promoted not for flying ability or any competency at leadership (remember that?), but by jumping through the correct hoops of secondary duties/management speak and shafting others for their own benefit. They have continued to shaft others since, due to lack of ability to do the jobs that they have been promoted into, or sheer determination to jump up to the next level again.
We are in situations across the RAF, not just in my fleet, where there is no experience left on the frontline other than the odd PA Sqn Ldr in their 50s who are all coming up to retirement in the next few years and are irreplaceable. Not only that but we seem to have reached a crisis of trust in the RAF in a downwards sense. Who else can remember being a first tourist aircraft captain and being trusted to take an aircraft and crew off to some other part of the continent without having to take an exec with you to hold your hand. Even the experienced aviators amongst us are questioned at every turn about every decision...Why did you land early?, why did you dump fuel? etc. etc.
Anyway, enough of a rant from me, someone elses turn I think, anyway I will leave you with a quote from General George C Marshall (I believe it was him , but may be wrong)......
"The quickest way to lose the trust of your subordinates is not to trust them in the first place"
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I've nothing like the experience level of the above posters, but I must agree with Jambo's comments regarding training.
Having been chopped in the advanced stages of AFT (METS) I felt like an absolute failure. Having since done the ATPL theory and nearly finished the course (having accepted a job starting in the spring) I actually feel that I have the required professional knowledge to make a decent start to my career and progress further in the future. I definitely agree with comments regarding short changing of studes having seen how the civvies do it.
Having been chopped in the advanced stages of AFT (METS) I felt like an absolute failure. Having since done the ATPL theory and nearly finished the course (having accepted a job starting in the spring) I actually feel that I have the required professional knowledge to make a decent start to my career and progress further in the future. I definitely agree with comments regarding short changing of studes having seen how the civvies do it.
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For me, the reason to leave come the day (not long now, whoo hoo!) is the relentless and unstoppable decay in the value of what the MOD tries to tell us is it's greatest asset:
People.
We squander literally HUNDREDS of useful COSTED manhours ticking boxes drawn up by accountants, management consultants and H&S twerps who have never seen an aeroplane. As a result the workforce is becoming tired, bored and disillusioned, since there seems to be an all-time low in common sense being applied to how we go about business.
By way of example, for the record IRT, IDT, CCS and every other type of pre-Det training (short of talking one's way out of a prime time slot on Al Jazeera) are ALL THE BLOODY SAME.
They do not equip us with genuine skills to survive a det in a land of sand, they merely provide an umbrella for those in high places who, in the event of a tragic "accident" can claim at the subsequent press conference that we were trained to the highest standards.
And that's just one example of how we have a "shut up and put up" culture, something which in itself further degrades any feeling of worth amongst those in uniform.
Added to that, the civvies who replaced our redundant colleagues do a generally worse job and seem to demand more respect than the Staish and, for example, have their own parking spaces right outside their office window whilst the livers-in can go whistle if they even so much as think about bringing a vehicle on to camp. Give RAF stations back to the people who live and work there, and remind the "Mrs Warrant-Officers" of this world they are paid to assist and support us, not the other way round.
And don't get me started about the tail-wagging-dog situation regards low key but essential services such as MT, supply and catering. If I see one more "Opening Times" or "Closed for lunch" sign on the door of a section, I'll hang one on the sodding aircraft next time we go flying.
Furthermore will someone in MOD please wake up to the fact that the centuries-old concept of the military actually enjoying living in harsh conditions in mouldy Nissan huts with the added embuggerance of long travelling times (yet more squandered manhours!) went down on the Titanic. Stop telling us how lucky we are to live in condemned slums with school dinners on the menu.
"The job of the RAF is to fly........etc"
Ahhhhh! That's better!
People.
We squander literally HUNDREDS of useful COSTED manhours ticking boxes drawn up by accountants, management consultants and H&S twerps who have never seen an aeroplane. As a result the workforce is becoming tired, bored and disillusioned, since there seems to be an all-time low in common sense being applied to how we go about business.
By way of example, for the record IRT, IDT, CCS and every other type of pre-Det training (short of talking one's way out of a prime time slot on Al Jazeera) are ALL THE BLOODY SAME.
They do not equip us with genuine skills to survive a det in a land of sand, they merely provide an umbrella for those in high places who, in the event of a tragic "accident" can claim at the subsequent press conference that we were trained to the highest standards.
And that's just one example of how we have a "shut up and put up" culture, something which in itself further degrades any feeling of worth amongst those in uniform.
Added to that, the civvies who replaced our redundant colleagues do a generally worse job and seem to demand more respect than the Staish and, for example, have their own parking spaces right outside their office window whilst the livers-in can go whistle if they even so much as think about bringing a vehicle on to camp. Give RAF stations back to the people who live and work there, and remind the "Mrs Warrant-Officers" of this world they are paid to assist and support us, not the other way round.
And don't get me started about the tail-wagging-dog situation regards low key but essential services such as MT, supply and catering. If I see one more "Opening Times" or "Closed for lunch" sign on the door of a section, I'll hang one on the sodding aircraft next time we go flying.
Furthermore will someone in MOD please wake up to the fact that the centuries-old concept of the military actually enjoying living in harsh conditions in mouldy Nissan huts with the added embuggerance of long travelling times (yet more squandered manhours!) went down on the Titanic. Stop telling us how lucky we are to live in condemned slums with school dinners on the menu.
"The job of the RAF is to fly........etc"
Ahhhhh! That's better!
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And don't get me started about the tail-wagging-dog situation regards low key but essential services such as MT, supply and catering. If I see one more "Opening Times" or "Closed for lunch" sign on the door of a section...
Yes in a perfect world we'd have a 24hr service for everything, but in these LEAN times when the civilian bean counters and 'productivity specialists' come a knocking we have enough problems justifying the essentials to them and their sell out chums in blue/grey trousers, let alone the non-essentials.
I spent a very interesting 40 minutes with the station LEAN adviser, fending off his proposals for further cuts (oops, LEAN isn't about cuts.....) to the staffing levels in my section whilst increasing workloads. His justification that these principles work in the civilian sector (he often quotes Honda) have no relevance to the way the RAF operates. A car production line is predictable, bits come in car goes out over and over again. Its not often a car manufacturer will be faced with having to move half their production line and personnel to Afghanistan whilst also increasing the work tempo for that half and still support it from the factory in the UK. How the execs on the station don't see that this LEAN man spends every waking hour on the unit justifying his jobs and taking credit for changes implemented before he arrived, just given a new catchy name under him is beyond me.
Ah well, as long as the lads on the squadron have time to play table tennis whilst the few lads in Supply are running around like blue ar$ed flies trying to deliver parts to the squadrons everything must be working fine....
2007 can't come soon enough...
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**** Honda anyway. You know, the more I read (on here) about the military, the more it seems like the corpoprate world 
That might not be a bad thing though because the corporate world is probably more vicious and destructive than the military can ever be
I worked at one place where management insisted on callinmg themselves "Leadership". I didn't do myself any favours by pointing out that Spartacus was a leader, Churchill too and Eisenhower, but not them. The day one of us would step forward and say "No I am Spartacus" was the day they could call themselves leaders.
Can you tell I've been drinking?
That might not be a bad thing though because the corporate world is probably more vicious and destructive than the military can ever be
I worked at one place where management insisted on callinmg themselves "Leadership". I didn't do myself any favours by pointing out that Spartacus was a leader, Churchill too and Eisenhower, but not them. The day one of us would step forward and say "No I am Spartacus" was the day they could call themselves leaders.
Can you tell I've been drinking?
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My last tour was one of my best. Although on the ground, I had a great bunch of Execs who respected my years of experience. Introduced to the new Staish as 'The Man Who Can' I felt 10 feet tall. A year before my retirement date I asked Binnsworth if they were going to offer me any kind of extension. My poster nearly bit my hand off and pencilled me in to remain in the post. I had my teeth into developing op support for a fast jet fleet and I was making real progress.
Then I got the word that the Ops Support Branch wanted my post. Despite OC Ops and the Staish fighting to keep me, the new gutless Binnsworth rep refused to support the case so I left.
I miss the flying and the people. However, it was as well I left when I did - the possibility of my having a nervous breakdown or committing murder would have increased by the day...
Sometimes the grass is not greener, but on balance I've 'got a life' and not driven by morons trying to apply civilian rules to a fighting force.
As for putting our guys on trial whilst letting NI terrorists off scot free - just don't get me started.
Then I got the word that the Ops Support Branch wanted my post. Despite OC Ops and the Staish fighting to keep me, the new gutless Binnsworth rep refused to support the case so I left.
I miss the flying and the people. However, it was as well I left when I did - the possibility of my having a nervous breakdown or committing murder would have increased by the day...
Sometimes the grass is not greener, but on balance I've 'got a life' and not driven by morons trying to apply civilian rules to a fighting force.
As for putting our guys on trial whilst letting NI terrorists off scot free - just don't get me started.
Talking Radalt.
Top post
that pretty well sums it up for me.
THS
Posting stuff like "Ah well, as long as the lads on the squadron have time to play table tennis whilst the few lads in Supply are running around like blue ar$ed flies trying to deliver parts to the squadrons everything must be working fine...." Will not endear you to anyone.
Why do we continually have to dig at each other when the targets of our sniping and vitriol are currently looking at ever more daft ideas for saving money?
Top post
that pretty well sums it up for me.THS
Posting stuff like "Ah well, as long as the lads on the squadron have time to play table tennis whilst the few lads in Supply are running around like blue ar$ed flies trying to deliver parts to the squadrons everything must be working fine...." Will not endear you to anyone.
Why do we continually have to dig at each other when the targets of our sniping and vitriol are currently looking at ever more daft ideas for saving money?
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Yeah - Good post Radalt.
It must be an RAF thing thougfh as in the RN people are not leaving in Droves. In fact the exit numbers are pretty constant, the same thay have always been. So, whats the difference?
It must be an RAF thing thougfh as in the RN people are not leaving in Droves. In fact the exit numbers are pretty constant, the same thay have always been. So, whats the difference?
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Posting stuff like "Ah well, as long as the lads on the squadron have time to play table tennis whilst the few lads in Supply are running around like blue ar$ed flies trying to deliver parts to the squadrons everything must be working fine...." Will not endear you to anyone.
Perversely the amount of time spent playing table tennis has been forced upon them by the LEAN process. Personnel on squadrons are no longer allowed to do 'collects' because that removes them from their primary duty (a big no-no under LEAN). The fact that whilst waiting for the 'blue ar$ed flies' to deliver that workstop part they have little to do other than pop over to supply to pick it up in person has been lost to 'productivity specialists'.
Speaking to the engineers on squadrons many of them would rather have the option to pick up a part but since their squadron runner has often been LEANed off them to they don't have the option.
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In my case, I got thoroughly pi$$ed off with the Air Farce no longer being run by Flt Cdrs and sqn cdrs, but by Scribblies, medics, rocks, PTI's - infact it is run by everyone at the very very blunt end!
I saw the proffessionalism of Corporate and the way everyone pulled together, but since then it has been a pretty rapid decline.
GW1 saw the start of it, when (quite rightly) the rocks got involved in chemical warfare instruction. Before then we had just been playing at it. Now, its gone beyond a joke........
a medic decides if you are well enough to go to theatre in the few weeks leading up to a deployment
a PTI decides if you are fit enough to go aswell
As if that wasn't enough, the rocks and PTIs get together and insist that you take your tent and go and live over the other side of the airfielkd before you deploy.
The fact is that ALL aircrew (maybe a few FC and ATs excepted) do several, fully recognised, real-life survival exercises. Why do we need all this extra bull$hit - the answer is simple, the airships from Sqn Cdr upwards, don't have the balls to question it.
A Flt Cdr, Sqn Cdr or Stn Cdr isn't deciding who will and will not go to war these days; - it's a little cpl PTI, or a rock or a medic or some other blunty person.
I'm afraid that it all got too difficult in my case. I was quite happy to deploy for 6 - 8 weeks at a time, living in sh1t conditions etc, but I could no longer stand returning from a no-notice 6 week deployment in the sand pit, to be greeted by an orderly officer the day after I got back 'cos "you haven't done one for a few weeks Sir!" together with a hat-on bollocking 'cos my aft expired whilst I was having fun in the sand.
God knows where it will end, but end it must do soon.
Now as a civvie, I fly a little less but the quality of my life has shot thru' the roof! I'm not sure if I'm better off financially, but I haven't noticed any change so I dont really care.
RIP RAF
Kind regards
TSM
ps - just a quickie about the ground crew - respect to all you guys and girls, I know how much you are hurting also. How you are managing is beyond me and only goes to prove that the Air Farce is totally reliant on the good will of its' servicemen and women at the shap end.
pps Why are there always so many resident people in SHQ?
I saw the proffessionalism of Corporate and the way everyone pulled together, but since then it has been a pretty rapid decline.
GW1 saw the start of it, when (quite rightly) the rocks got involved in chemical warfare instruction. Before then we had just been playing at it. Now, its gone beyond a joke........
a medic decides if you are well enough to go to theatre in the few weeks leading up to a deployment
a PTI decides if you are fit enough to go aswell
As if that wasn't enough, the rocks and PTIs get together and insist that you take your tent and go and live over the other side of the airfielkd before you deploy.
The fact is that ALL aircrew (maybe a few FC and ATs excepted) do several, fully recognised, real-life survival exercises. Why do we need all this extra bull$hit - the answer is simple, the airships from Sqn Cdr upwards, don't have the balls to question it.
A Flt Cdr, Sqn Cdr or Stn Cdr isn't deciding who will and will not go to war these days; - it's a little cpl PTI, or a rock or a medic or some other blunty person.
I'm afraid that it all got too difficult in my case. I was quite happy to deploy for 6 - 8 weeks at a time, living in sh1t conditions etc, but I could no longer stand returning from a no-notice 6 week deployment in the sand pit, to be greeted by an orderly officer the day after I got back 'cos "you haven't done one for a few weeks Sir!" together with a hat-on bollocking 'cos my aft expired whilst I was having fun in the sand.
God knows where it will end, but end it must do soon.
Now as a civvie, I fly a little less but the quality of my life has shot thru' the roof! I'm not sure if I'm better off financially, but I haven't noticed any change so I dont really care.
RIP RAF
Kind regards
TSM
ps - just a quickie about the ground crew - respect to all you guys and girls, I know how much you are hurting also. How you are managing is beyond me and only goes to prove that the Air Farce is totally reliant on the good will of its' servicemen and women at the shap end.
pps Why are there always so many resident people in SHQ?
Southside,
Don't be fooled by your stats sheet. The underlying problems are the same in the crewrooms around the RN, ie they're empty. They're all doing their tickets. Once you see them on the exit stats and the recruiters start to react to the problem, you'll be witnessing the same old 10 year supply/demand cycle in action.
Of course the answer is a new management strategy to replace last year's IIHR (Investors in Human Resources) fad.
Don't be fooled by your stats sheet. The underlying problems are the same in the crewrooms around the RN, ie they're empty. They're all doing their tickets. Once you see them on the exit stats and the recruiters start to react to the problem, you'll be witnessing the same old 10 year supply/demand cycle in action.
Of course the answer is a new management strategy to replace last year's IIHR (Investors in Human Resources) fad.
Are they still intending to introduce that manual labourers' skill test to add to the joys of CCS, IRT, IDT etc etc?
Once upon a time we just had a day's GDT and an Annual Medical each year. I don't remember people dropping like flies during all those Minevals, Maxevals and Tacevals we had back then.
But, of course, the difference was we were in the RAF then, rather than playing pongos.
The RAF of today has 3.75% of the people it had at its peak WW2 strength. Just how small is it going to get in the future?
Still, the airlines are getting busier. Even though it's little more than being locked in a cupboard with a stranger for a couple of hours at a time, 4-5 times per day 5 days per week, at least people know why they're there doing the job they do. And their aircraft aren't museum relics either.
Once upon a time we just had a day's GDT and an Annual Medical each year. I don't remember people dropping like flies during all those Minevals, Maxevals and Tacevals we had back then.
But, of course, the difference was we were in the RAF then, rather than playing pongos.
The RAF of today has 3.75% of the people it had at its peak WW2 strength. Just how small is it going to get in the future?
Still, the airlines are getting busier. Even though it's little more than being locked in a cupboard with a stranger for a couple of hours at a time, 4-5 times per day 5 days per week, at least people know why they're there doing the job they do. And their aircraft aren't museum relics either.
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The enormous disconnect between reality and the decision-making process did it for me. I was simply fed up at being angry every day, and also concerned about the impact that cost-cutting would have on the meagre family life we were allowed to enjoy.
That, and an illegal war, pushed me to fill in the PVR form. Although I didn't mention the war as my unit had guys (and girls) out there at the time...except when very drunk, and the unfolding soapbox could be brought out in the Mess!
That, and an illegal war, pushed me to fill in the PVR form. Although I didn't mention the war as my unit had guys (and girls) out there at the time...except when very drunk, and the unfolding soapbox could be brought out in the Mess!