Exit levels?
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LFFC
'If you're a PA flt lt, then you'd be a complete t*sser to accept promotion to sqn ldr because it will be back on the CS with all the loss of pension that that entails!'
Not quite right as I understand it.
You can be promoted to Sqn Ldr and remain on the PA Spine. If you are subsequently promoted to Wg Cdr you are obliged to return to the Career Spine. In theroy PA Sqn Ldrs are still in competition with CS Sqn Ldrs for promotion to Wg Cdr. In practice, and by the very nature of PA Spine positions, they are unlikely to be offered the right posting in order to get the ticks needed for promotion. However a Wg Cdr pension at 55 will be less than a PA Sqn Ldr pilot. You would have to be sure you could make Gp Capt before 55 in order to make being promoted financially worthwhile.
So if you're a PA Sqn Ldr, you'd be a complete t*sser to accept promotion to Wg Cdr because it will be back on the CS with all the loss of pension, and increse in workload, that that entails!'
Flo
'If you're a PA flt lt, then you'd be a complete t*sser to accept promotion to sqn ldr because it will be back on the CS with all the loss of pension that that entails!'
Not quite right as I understand it.
You can be promoted to Sqn Ldr and remain on the PA Spine. If you are subsequently promoted to Wg Cdr you are obliged to return to the Career Spine. In theroy PA Sqn Ldrs are still in competition with CS Sqn Ldrs for promotion to Wg Cdr. In practice, and by the very nature of PA Spine positions, they are unlikely to be offered the right posting in order to get the ticks needed for promotion. However a Wg Cdr pension at 55 will be less than a PA Sqn Ldr pilot. You would have to be sure you could make Gp Capt before 55 in order to make being promoted financially worthwhile.
So if you're a PA Sqn Ldr, you'd be a complete t*sser to accept promotion to Wg Cdr because it will be back on the CS with all the loss of pension, and increse in workload, that that entails!'
Flo
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Axail,
Good point - I hadn't thought of that. I suppose that's the equivalent of the old promotion to sqn ldr within the spec aircrew branch - but wasn't that only possible beyond the age of 45?
The trouble is that that only makes matters worse! I couldn't begin to imagine how a CS sqn ldr would feel if he/she was denied transfer to the PAS whilst one of his subordinates was promoted to sqn ldr within the PAS!
Good point - I hadn't thought of that. I suppose that's the equivalent of the old promotion to sqn ldr within the spec aircrew branch - but wasn't that only possible beyond the age of 45?
The trouble is that that only makes matters worse! I couldn't begin to imagine how a CS sqn ldr would feel if he/she was denied transfer to the PAS whilst one of his subordinates was promoted to sqn ldr within the PAS!
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LFFC
The spec aircrew system was slightly different. A spec aircerew Flt Lt promoted to Sqn Ldr before the age of 45 would automatically transfer back to the single list (the CS in todays terms). This was to be avoided at all costs as you ended up with a Flt Cdrs workload with very little prospect of further promotion (since you were competing with the young 'high fliers' who were promoted to Sqn Ldr in their early thirties).
A spec aircrew Flt Lt promoted to Sqn Ldr after age 45 remained spec aircrew. This was ideal since as a pilot you were pretty much guaranteed to keep flying to 55 and amongst other things you were no longer eligible for orderly officer.
You're right about the CS Sqn Ldr, denied PA Spine, watching in dismay as his PA Spine Flt Lt deputy is promoted to PA Spine Sqn Ldr. Especially grim when he realises that his deputy is now lined up for a ground based Gp Capt pension at 55.
Flo
The spec aircrew system was slightly different. A spec aircerew Flt Lt promoted to Sqn Ldr before the age of 45 would automatically transfer back to the single list (the CS in todays terms). This was to be avoided at all costs as you ended up with a Flt Cdrs workload with very little prospect of further promotion (since you were competing with the young 'high fliers' who were promoted to Sqn Ldr in their early thirties).
A spec aircrew Flt Lt promoted to Sqn Ldr after age 45 remained spec aircrew. This was ideal since as a pilot you were pretty much guaranteed to keep flying to 55 and amongst other things you were no longer eligible for orderly officer.
You're right about the CS Sqn Ldr, denied PA Spine, watching in dismay as his PA Spine Flt Lt deputy is promoted to PA Spine Sqn Ldr. Especially grim when he realises that his deputy is now lined up for a ground based Gp Capt pension at 55.
Flo
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AF Not all rosy though, as there is more competition for promo and, if you do get it, more chance of a quality staff tour in some HQ Black Hole! Also the 'Gp Capt' pension is not the full story - one neeeds to check the specifics v carefully in each individual case- enjoy!
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I still fail to see any change. If I look back at my log book for a random month in 1983 I averaged 40 hrs flying. Nowadays its slightly less but some months its up with that figure. In the 1980's I completed back to back deployments to the FI which entailed 13 months deployed in a 16 month period. That still happens but not as much.
PVR rates are much the same. In 1995 the PVR rate was 2%...there was a slight peak in 2001 which took it up to 4% but it soon came back down and is now 2.5%. So, no change there then.
But I have to admit to sitting in shareholders and looking at the young guys there who are just starting their flying careers and wishing I was them. Im not going to be around to see the introduction of SCMR and the new CVF and the new T45. Shame.
A new class of ship, a new aircraft, a new weapon system in the FSGW. Rather than a bleak future I think the future of the FAA and the RN is particularly exciting. Wish I was 20 yrs younger.
PVR rates are much the same. In 1995 the PVR rate was 2%...there was a slight peak in 2001 which took it up to 4% but it soon came back down and is now 2.5%. So, no change there then.
But I have to admit to sitting in shareholders and looking at the young guys there who are just starting their flying careers and wishing I was them. Im not going to be around to see the introduction of SCMR and the new CVF and the new T45. Shame.
A new class of ship, a new aircraft, a new weapon system in the FSGW. Rather than a bleak future I think the future of the FAA and the RN is particularly exciting. Wish I was 20 yrs younger.
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"A new class of ship, a new aircraft, a new weapon system in the FSGW. Rather than a bleak future I think the future of the FAA and the RN is particularly exciting. Wish I was 20 yrs younger."
Southside you truly are full of ##it !
The "young guys" in your Sqn will be drawing their pensions before the new carriers get afloat if delays in previous projects are anything to go by - if they get built at all !
Southside you truly are full of ##it !
The "young guys" in your Sqn will be drawing their pensions before the new carriers get afloat if delays in previous projects are anything to go by - if they get built at all !
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No they wont. The next generation of JSF aircrew were selected last year and are starting their training. We have personnel working on CVN's (re)learning those essential skills.
The furture of the RN is very encouraging.
Have faith young man.
The furture of the RN is very encouraging.
Have faith young man.
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The next generation of JSF aircrew were selected last year and are starting their training.
TM
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Apache PVRs
"Unsustainable" is a good word for it. So what is anyone doing? The Army Apache fleet is hemorrhaging QHIs. Of interest it is the better operators who are pulling the plug as they feel unsupported from above and have had enough of trying to achieve so much with so little.
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As an aside, is anyone else noticing how many times Vecvechookattack is answering direct posts to Southside in the first person?
Sort your life out you muppet
Sort your life out you muppet
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Of course this would have nothing to do with the imminent demise of the FRI in 12 months time and the very healthy pilot job market.
This is supply and demand but the feeling is, even where I live, that the floodgates are about to open.
Oh, and recruiting isn't exactly easy at the moment either!
Anyone got a solution, that's it lets have a comprehensive spending review...that will cheer everyone up no end.
This is supply and demand but the feeling is, even where I live, that the floodgates are about to open.
Oh, and recruiting isn't exactly easy at the moment either!
Anyone got a solution, that's it lets have a comprehensive spending review...that will cheer everyone up no end.
Inter Arma Enim Silentius Lex Legis
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Si Clik
Don't jest matey because Gordon the Plunderer is going to expect the £1 Billion that you guys are going to spend in Afghanistan to be paid back out of a future MOD budget.
Oh dear!!
Don't jest matey because Gordon the Plunderer is going to expect the £1 Billion that you guys are going to spend in Afghanistan to be paid back out of a future MOD budget.
Oh dear!!
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PVR rates on the up?
Irrespective of any CSR pressures or the like.. which are no joke, the chasm I believe is starting to widen.
Have we finally started to see the straw break the proverbial camel and really at experience levels we can ill afford to lose with some of the challenges out there on the horizon.
Of course this is rather depressing for someone who has spent the best part of the last 18 months trying to get people through the door. It is still my firm belief that this is a great job to do with a lot to offer those who are highly motivated. Our present students are certainly very keen and are an example of what young people should be about.
But how do we keep them motivated and want to saty beyond the initial commision esepcially pilots!!
Have we finally started to see the straw break the proverbial camel and really at experience levels we can ill afford to lose with some of the challenges out there on the horizon.
Of course this is rather depressing for someone who has spent the best part of the last 18 months trying to get people through the door. It is still my firm belief that this is a great job to do with a lot to offer those who are highly motivated. Our present students are certainly very keen and are an example of what young people should be about.
But how do we keep them motivated and want to saty beyond the initial commision esepcially pilots!!
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I may be talking complete drivvel, and I appologise if I am but I heard some guys at work talking of a CAS symposium and state of the nation type trawl looking at pay and FRI for pilots along the lines expected of Doctors in the RAF.
Probably horse-pooh.
Probably horse-pooh.
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It is a popular pastime of mischief makers to whip-up, exagerate, enhance or otherwise inflate rumours about 'everyone' leaving - I've seen it often during my career and indeed taken part, especially when trying to generate some kind of reaction from 'them' who hold the reins/budgets. We presume 'they' care enough to act and could not possibly stand around and see 'everyone' leave.
Of course this is never the case in reality - when some leave, others benefit in terms of promotion or eventual retention measures, thus regenerating the Service and, ironically, making it worthwhile for those who were probably going to stay anyway.
But this time it's serious.
Conditions, operational tempo, erosion of quality of life, eternal wheel reinvention - the list is long and no one thing can be blamed for the current and increasing exodus. But it is definitely happening and I'm not at all sure manning levels can be sustained. I don't have the graphs or the stats - I just know because every day somebody else takes me surprise and says they're on resettlement next week.
Behind those now leaving are a young and often inexperienced replacements, who are enthusiastic, naive but also unwilling to put up with consistently poor tools, conditions or management. They won't stay unless somebody directly correlates the effectiveness of the nation's defences to the quality of people serving and acts by investing in significantly more than just showy hardware.
Each week I sense I am stood on a mountain watching an avalanche of snow leave my side, heading to pastures new. But I am also conscious of being left behind on an over-exposed mountain top that can't simply be re-packed with snow when the storms come.
If things don't change radically, critical mass is coming.
Of course this is never the case in reality - when some leave, others benefit in terms of promotion or eventual retention measures, thus regenerating the Service and, ironically, making it worthwhile for those who were probably going to stay anyway.
But this time it's serious.
Conditions, operational tempo, erosion of quality of life, eternal wheel reinvention - the list is long and no one thing can be blamed for the current and increasing exodus. But it is definitely happening and I'm not at all sure manning levels can be sustained. I don't have the graphs or the stats - I just know because every day somebody else takes me surprise and says they're on resettlement next week.
Behind those now leaving are a young and often inexperienced replacements, who are enthusiastic, naive but also unwilling to put up with consistently poor tools, conditions or management. They won't stay unless somebody directly correlates the effectiveness of the nation's defences to the quality of people serving and acts by investing in significantly more than just showy hardware.
Each week I sense I am stood on a mountain watching an avalanche of snow leave my side, heading to pastures new. But I am also conscious of being left behind on an over-exposed mountain top that can't simply be re-packed with snow when the storms come.
If things don't change radically, critical mass is coming.
Last edited by dallas; 31st Jan 2006 at 21:06.
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Dallas - re "conscious of being left behind": you have just articulated what I am starting to notice as a 40 something who has just embarked on his third flying tour after a protracted absence (2 x ground tours).
I am worried that everyone else knows somethin' I do not!!! (I am PAS & AFPS 05 however and signed to 55. They bought me!)
Regards
I am worried that everyone else knows somethin' I do not!!! (I am PAS & AFPS 05 however and signed to 55. They bought me!)
Regards
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As someone who is hoping to join the RAF in the very near future, this all worries me slightly. I'm starting to think that all the scare stories my parents told me, while trying to persuade me to get a "proper" job, are true!
Are things really this bad?
Perhaps, if everyone is leaving, I'll have a better chance of passing selection!
Are things really this bad?
Perhaps, if everyone is leaving, I'll have a better chance of passing selection!