Terms of address?
Join Date: May 2004
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Safeware was bang on the mark with:
From my perspective, it depends upon the situation:
Flt Lt Badminton-Racket: Mr Spleenripper, do you think it would be worth re-training some of the linies on procedure 'X'?
WO Spleenripper: Hmmm....
will get you much further than:
Flt Lt Badminton-Racket: Bob, sort your men out!
WO Spleeripper: F*ck off 'Sir'.
For myself, I've always found it polite to call people 2 ranks above and up by their rank (i.e SAC calls Cpl and Sgt by name once introduced to them as such, but sticks with 'Cheif' and 'Flight') as long as the situation warrants it. The exception is that the Wobbly is always called Sir, no if, but, or maybe about it.
On another note, I seem to remember a new JEngO turning up to a Sqn and introducing himself:
"Hi, I'm Flt Lt Week-willed, but you can call me Simon socially". Very good that, and he spent the rest of his tour being called 'Simon socially'.
He has climbed to the top of his pile, you are at the bottom of yours, he deserves your respect for that.
Flt Lt Badminton-Racket: Mr Spleenripper, do you think it would be worth re-training some of the linies on procedure 'X'?
WO Spleenripper: Hmmm....
will get you much further than:
Flt Lt Badminton-Racket: Bob, sort your men out!
WO Spleeripper: F*ck off 'Sir'.
For myself, I've always found it polite to call people 2 ranks above and up by their rank (i.e SAC calls Cpl and Sgt by name once introduced to them as such, but sticks with 'Cheif' and 'Flight') as long as the situation warrants it. The exception is that the Wobbly is always called Sir, no if, but, or maybe about it.
On another note, I seem to remember a new JEngO turning up to a Sqn and introducing himself:
"Hi, I'm Flt Lt Week-willed, but you can call me Simon socially". Very good that, and he spent the rest of his tour being called 'Simon socially'.
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I fly big angry grey machines. With a crew of 4/5 ....with generally me as the A/C Cmdr along with my oppos, Bill, smudge, Jumper, Daisy and the aircrewman - Chris.
We embark in tin cans for 6 months at a time - going to far off places - some of them are nice with lots of Cocktail parties and some of them are horid with lots of bad guys shooting at you.
And then when we've had enough, we go home and get ready for the next one. Fab !!
We embark in tin cans for 6 months at a time - going to far off places - some of them are nice with lots of Cocktail parties and some of them are horid with lots of bad guys shooting at you.
And then when we've had enough, we go home and get ready for the next one. Fab !!
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Sorry to add yet another part to this thread (didn't think it justifies one of it's own, and here seems to be the most appropriate place) but I wonder if anyone knows the answer to a question none of my JEngOs have been able to help on. Namely:
What is the difference between a Commanding Officer (CO), and an Officer Commanding (OC)? I know Harry Staish is the CO, and my Sqn boss is OC, but is is just position, or is there a rank thing going on here?
I'm sure you guys who are hard at work (on here) in your office complete with QR's and countless other tomes of knowledge next to the PC can help out here - always good for a pub quiz bonus question!
What is the difference between a Commanding Officer (CO), and an Officer Commanding (OC)? I know Harry Staish is the CO, and my Sqn boss is OC, but is is just position, or is there a rank thing going on here?
I'm sure you guys who are hard at work (on here) in your office complete with QR's and countless other tomes of knowledge next to the PC can help out here - always good for a pub quiz bonus question!
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Many thanks for the replys.
Link to this page passed on to said junior officer on a det somewhere out east.
It was a work context, where MACR from passing crew pops in to the section on business, so little chance of social interaction. Warrant Officer will do nicely until informed otherwise.
Link to this page passed on to said junior officer on a det somewhere out east.
It was a work context, where MACR from passing crew pops in to the section on business, so little chance of social interaction. Warrant Officer will do nicely until informed otherwise.
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Southside, me old shippers.
I am genuinely amazed that you are military aircrew given the opinions you have ventured in many threads on Pprune. That said, if indeed you are a WAFU oggsplosh aviator, then I apologize for any overly harsh banter I may have dished out when we have crossed swords on this and other threads.
You can call me Max.
I am genuinely amazed that you are military aircrew given the opinions you have ventured in many threads on Pprune. That said, if indeed you are a WAFU oggsplosh aviator, then I apologize for any overly harsh banter I may have dished out when we have crossed swords on this and other threads.
You can call me Max.
Tonka,
You can only have one Commanding Officer on a station, therefore the rest are Officer Commanding a sub unit ie sqn etc. Perversely the Aussies do it in reverse ie the Staish is the OC and sqn cdrs are CO
RubiC
You can only have one Commanding Officer on a station, therefore the rest are Officer Commanding a sub unit ie sqn etc. Perversely the Aussies do it in reverse ie the Staish is the OC and sqn cdrs are CO
RubiC
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If you don't know the MACR then it would be proper to address him as 'Mr'. For a female, ask her what form of formal title she wishes to be used [Ms, Mrs - I doubt you would hear 'Ma'am...].
A unit I served on operationally had a clear-cut convention. The Boss was 'Sir' at all times. All officers were first name terms except in formal environments when to do so would be deemed inappropriate. Also except whilst flying when crew position was used. The SNCOs were addressed by first names [mind you, we didn't have any young-ish officers on the Sqn, and for the senior masters, when you joined you usually asked if they minded you using their christian name]. FS and MACR used 'Sir' for officers on duty [in uniform or not] but relaxed to first name terms when out socially. Sgt aircrew called officers and MACR 'Sir' at all times.
It worked very well indeed; the Sqn was a first rate, highly professional, close-knit team with a reputation for producing the goods.
A unit I served on operationally had a clear-cut convention. The Boss was 'Sir' at all times. All officers were first name terms except in formal environments when to do so would be deemed inappropriate. Also except whilst flying when crew position was used. The SNCOs were addressed by first names [mind you, we didn't have any young-ish officers on the Sqn, and for the senior masters, when you joined you usually asked if they minded you using their christian name]. FS and MACR used 'Sir' for officers on duty [in uniform or not] but relaxed to first name terms when out socially. Sgt aircrew called officers and MACR 'Sir' at all times.
It worked very well indeed; the Sqn was a first rate, highly professional, close-knit team with a reputation for producing the goods.
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Terms of Endearment (Address)
In my day (yawn,yawn) loadies were known as AQMs and the poor s**s couldn't get any further than F/S. Then they graciously allowed them to become "aircrew" and we then got substantive Cpls (acting Sgts) promoted overnight to MAQM on aircrew TOS. i.e. Automatic promotion by time and not waing for dead men's shoes.
Always thought it a good bet that a loadie called Masters living on base would make it to the top. Would his house be known as Master Air Quartermaster Masters' Quarter.
Then they changed the brevet again to ALM........ Oh well.
Always thought it a good bet that a loadie called Masters living on base would make it to the top. Would his house be known as Master Air Quartermaster Masters' Quarter.
Then they changed the brevet again to ALM........ Oh well.
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The staff answer (Debretts induced with some licence!) is that you would call her, Ms Smith.
I will nail my hat to the line and say it would be a very unwise YO/JO who calls a MACR/WO/RSM! by their first name. In the army you would get a no coffee bollocking from the RSM and the Adjutant!
They have earned the rank/rate and therefore deserved to be called according to it, just like you should be addressed as sir or ma'am by them.
I do however accept that Sqn's may be different, but even then wait until you are guided by those more senior and wiser than you!!
I will nail my hat to the line and say it would be a very unwise YO/JO who calls a MACR/WO/RSM! by their first name. In the army you would get a no coffee bollocking from the RSM and the Adjutant!
They have earned the rank/rate and therefore deserved to be called according to it, just like you should be addressed as sir or ma'am by them.
I do however accept that Sqn's may be different, but even then wait until you are guided by those more senior and wiser than you!!
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At what point did it no longer become acceptable for JOs to solicit advice from WOs and SNCOs?
Although the laydees in question will probably derive a little bit of private satisfaction in being able to cause so much confusion among the officer ranks, they are professional and will recognise that it is in no-one's interest to see an officer making a prat out of him/herself by stumbling about like a wooden-top.
When you have a quiet moment, just ask her if she'd rather be addressed by rank or title (Mrs,Miss, Ms). First name terms are out, both as a matter of respect (as discussed above) and because you're going to need to know how to refer to her in front of the ORs. Naturally, first name terms are out there because in order to do her job properly, the lads and lasses need to know that she is on their side and not part of the rupert club.
Point of information, the only female WO I've seen was an army WOII, and she went by "Mrs" among the ruperts.
Although the laydees in question will probably derive a little bit of private satisfaction in being able to cause so much confusion among the officer ranks, they are professional and will recognise that it is in no-one's interest to see an officer making a prat out of him/herself by stumbling about like a wooden-top.
When you have a quiet moment, just ask her if she'd rather be addressed by rank or title (Mrs,Miss, Ms). First name terms are out, both as a matter of respect (as discussed above) and because you're going to need to know how to refer to her in front of the ORs. Naturally, first name terms are out there because in order to do her job properly, the lads and lasses need to know that she is on their side and not part of the rupert club.
Point of information, the only female WO I've seen was an army WOII, and she went by "Mrs" among the ruperts.
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Thanks for the lesson Wyler. If I ever have to speak to one of these MACR / WO types, I shall now know what to do. . .
But really , if you have to wonder what to call a WO, then the answer is
1) Mr / Mrs Smith.
followed by
2) Excuse me Mr / Mrs Smith, but how would you like to be addressed ?
But then some JO's / Masters develop such a relationship that first names are used, depending on whose around.
Some of them quite like it I'd imagine . . . .
( Guess your definition of JO can be wooly too. Pilot Officer holding in Ops or Aircraft Captain ? )
But really , if you have to wonder what to call a WO, then the answer is
1) Mr / Mrs Smith.
followed by
2) Excuse me Mr / Mrs Smith, but how would you like to be addressed ?
But then some JO's / Masters develop such a relationship that first names are used, depending on whose around.
Some of them quite like it I'd imagine . . . .
( Guess your definition of JO can be wooly too. Pilot Officer holding in Ops or Aircraft Captain ? )
But surely she would be mistress Again, wouldn't dream of calling the SWO Bill, more Mr Bloggs, but then if you work day to day with them much more appropriate for first names all round, much less grief (unless perhaps formal/semi formal in front of the troops)
Again, wouldn't dream of calling the SWO Bill, more Mr Bloggs, but then if you work day to day with them much more appropriate for first names all round, much less grief (unless perhaps formal/semi formal in front of the troops)
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I've only got 5 years to do and, as there appears to be no concensus, could someone let me know where all these female MACR are; so that I can avoid them, and the issue in general - ta
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Rubic,
Not so in the RN. A Squadron commander is CO as is the CO of the base.
I hope CO Cottesmore doesn't get too much of an inferiority complex when, on 31 Mar 06, CO 800 NAS and 6 months later CO 801 NAS appear on the scene. I'm sure they'll all be very chilled and relaxed.
But not on first name terms. (Did you see what I did there?)
You can only have one Commanding Officer on a station, therefore the rest are Officer Commanding a sub unit ie sqn etc.
I hope CO Cottesmore doesn't get too much of an inferiority complex when, on 31 Mar 06, CO 800 NAS and 6 months later CO 801 NAS appear on the scene. I'm sure they'll all be very chilled and relaxed.
But not on first name terms. (Did you see what I did there?)