Cdt

[tonkatechie]

So I am free to leave at any time because I object to the principle of enforced CDT?

Of course you are - you volunteered to join, so you can ask to leave...

Does this bypass any PVR waiting times?

I imagine that if you asked to leave because CDT was 'Cramping my out of work lifestyle' (o words to that effect) your boss would be more than keen to hasten matters for you!

Personally, I'd rather pee in a bottle everytime I needed to go than go through the inconvenience of running up and down the gym in summer with the heating on full blast, with some ar**hole PTI making sure my foot passes the line. Doesn't he know there's 'no running in the hangar or on the flightline'?

What about testing for alcohol as well?

Heard that there was a plan to replace signatures on job cards with a swipe of the id card - \'can\'t do that, carrying FOD, and the cards would have to be replaced too often from wear and tear\'.
Ok, how about fingerprinting? \'Can\'t do that, dirty techies will ruin the hardware with oil/fuel, and we don\'t think they wash anyway\'. OK, we\'ll use retinal scanning then. \'No you don\'t\' says aircrew, \'You can tell if you\'ve been drinking too much with that\'

I\'m sure the grapevine has embellished this, but it\'s almost so far fetched that it could be true....

[southside]

HM Forces policy is ZERO TOLERANCE for drugs

No its not. Drugs are allowed and are readily available. But going back to the Alcohol problem. In the Armed Forces we positively encourage drinking. It is a pre-reqiusite. In fact, if you live on the camp then your "home" is built around the bar. Alcohol dominates your life. So, why do we promote excessive drinking and call it team building and high spirits but having a drag on a tab is not only frowned upon but liable to have you sacked.? Double standards maybe.?????

[mystic_meg]

No its not. Drugs are allowed and are readily available

OK Mr Pedantic, I suppose you're going to tell us it's alcohol??

Yawn...

[southside]

More people die of alcohol related incidents than from drugs. More servicemen find themselves on a charge due to alcohol than drugs. But Alcohol is an acceptable drug. Its ok to get pi$$ed but not stoned. Why not? Why is it ok to get pi$$ed and not stoned?

[mystic_meg]

Hey, you're the officer with all the sugar-coated pills, YOU tell US..

[southside]

Last year 6580 people died because of alcohol.


Last year 7 people died because of cannabis.




Hmmmmmmmm.

[mystic_meg]

Double yawn.......

[Talking Radalt]

Soooooo.......

Knock back a few sell-by-dated sherbets brewed on regularly inspected premises in sealed bottles by a licensed supplier as part of a regulated industry

or

Pop some dodgy Smarties bought off some bloke I sort-of know in the pub that were concocted in a grimy bedsit from a loose recipe rattling round in the head of some would-be "gangsta" who's given himself the nickname of "The Chemist", using unsterilised equipment previously used by said Chemist to worm his dog, bulked up with dishwashing powder, horse medicine and kids powder paint.
Mmmm, tasty.

[southside]

So, are you saying that we should continue to dismiss people for taking drugs whilst encouraging them to drink alcohol?...


....p.s. Gangster is spelt with an "er" on the end.

[Talking Radalt]

No, but what I am saying is we should dismiss people for partaking in an illegal activity organised by the murky underworld of international hardened criminal syndicates, and encourage them to indulge in legal ones organised by blue chip global corporations.


PS "Gansta" is more wikkid......innit?

[southside]

So, if taking drugs were to be de-criminalised, then that would be ok? Good. Glad we have all cleared that up then. But back to the main thread.

Is CDT a waste of money?

How much does it cost to run the CDT organisation in the Armed Forces? Does anyone know? And does that cost justify the means. Is there any evidence to suggest that our aircraft are crashing because our maintainers are high on drugs?

Are the Armed Forces less efficient because our men (and women) are taking drugs. Should we keep CDT or bin it and spend the money on someting better?

[Talking Radalt]

So, if taking drugs were to be de-criminalised, then that would be ok?

Errr, no I don't think so. I refer you to the bit about hardened criminal syndicates.
Keep digging, SIB will be here any minute.

For info, I've had the unfortunate experience of arriving at the aftermath of a drug-taking serviceman being rumbled and it really was just like all the literature, videos and lectures pumped out by SIB....
His room stank from the end of the corridor, the floor was completely obscured by unwashed clothes.....dozens of food containers, cartons and tins lurked under the bed some with the rotting food still in them.....congealed blood in the sink which he'd apparently coughed up some weeks previously.....the windows had been painted black on the inside for some bizarre druggy reason (yup, you guessed it.....an attack of "Black! It's all BLACK! Black I tell you!" or so the Doc reckoned).....the bed wasn't fit for even an overworked pit pony to take a nap in.....exposed sharps everywhere........unopened mail from every debt collecting agency in the English-speaking world, and the really, really good bit......
Human turds over the floor nicely hidden under all the laundry. Yeah, you can guess how we found 'em
Don't ask me how he was allowed to arrive in this sorry state un-noticed for that is another thread entirely. Fact is, his entire life was fcuked up.

Should we keep CDT or bin it and spend the money on someting better?

Dunno, Re-read the above and you tell me.

[mystic_meg]

....p.s. Gangster is spelt with an "er" on the end

Correct. 10/10

It is a pre-reqiusite.

Oh dear.... 0/10

Why is it ok to get pi$$ed and not stoned?

Probably because the former doesn't affect your spelling as much as the latter, chimp.

[FOMere2eternity]

CDT - Yeah, keep it. It does a job and is a good way of getting rid of wasters.

CCS - Suppose we have to have something to keep the hand in. Can't argue with once a year. (not counting Guard and pre-OOA stuff that for some reason isn't covered by the annual tick).

IRT/IDT - Is becoming increasingly popular, principally due to a new entry in 'Annoying Stuff that p1sses people off each year' list - see pre-OOA FT.

AFT - Pointless. Wastes fit people's time and just niggles those who are not.

Pre-OOA FT - An annoying waste of time, especially the one 7 days before leaving loved ones behind to get shot at. I've even heard some people take leave before their 4-month sentence...

Annual Standing in a Dark Room on One Leg Test - not yet reality, but has as much point as some other 'days out'.

I'm not suggesting we should vote on extra stuff that those who know better keep introducing, but really...

[CashMachine]

Ah, Talking Radalt.

Did CDT pick him up????

Or was it, more likely, someone in his block finally took some notice and reported him!

There also seems to be some confusion on this forum about types of drugs! Something like heroin or cocaine will never be legalised (thankfully!!) but there has been a lot of talk about de-criminalising cannabis as it's side effects are (apparently) negligable. If (big IF) they did make cannabis legal I think the forces would be on quite dodgy ground still banning it.

[Above Datums]

I firmly belive CDT is a good thing. If dope was legalised and the service caved in and allowed members to smoke it then think what would happen.

Guard would become pointless as if the guys were high whilst on the gate (lets face it if dope is legal then theres no reason not to have a joint before going on the gate) then depending on how they react they could "get the munchies" and nip to the NAFFI, let someone with no ID in just because they are having a good trip or worse, shoot the place up because they are convinced they are being attacked.

Guys on a "smoke" break could come back to work and decide that the colours of the electric wires are wrong and start pulling them out by the handfull.

etc etc etc.

The list of what could happen is endless. In short CDT, although it is a ball ache, is in place for a good reason and I can't see why people are against it.

AD

All spelling errors are because I'm $hit at spelling!

[CashMachine]

Above Datums,

I hate to say it, but your talking rubbish!
There are strict rules governing drinking prior to things like live armed guard as well as flying. What makes you think that IF cannabis were to be made legal the rules would be any different?

I don't agree with drug taking at all, but one of the things about CDT is that it assumes your guilt and asks you to prove your innocence (or incriminate yourself if you're stupid enough to take drugs), which is totally at odds with the basic premise of U.K (and indeed most other countries) law, which assumes your innocence until you are PROVEN guilty in a court of law! You are also, essentially, under open arrest until you have given a sample!

[Fg Off Max Stout]

southside,

I know by now that you always play devil's advocate just to provoke a reaction, and I know that by replying I'm feeding a troll, but some of your barking statements need to be challenged.

1. 'As most recreational drugs do little or no harm, isn't it about time we accepted that a small % of our band are going to take drugs? What about testing for alcohol as well?'
WTF? Most recreational drugs do significant harm. That's why their illegal. I don't want someone torquing my Jesus nuts when their smacked out on crystal meth. Zero tolerance please. And, yes, people do get tested for alcohol as well.

2. RAF and alcohol. Bull**** factor - high.
I may live in the Mess, but my life is certainly not dominated by alcohol and neither am I forced or unduly encouraged to drink. I have a teetotaller colleague whose decision not to drink is respected and supported. Are you suggesting that if I turned up to fly batfaced, that would be OK because alcohol is a legal drug? Whatever.

3. Fags comparison. Irrelevant.
Tabbing fags may be a dirty habit but it doesn't impair your ability.

4. 'Why is it ok to get pi$$ed and not stoned?' Are you drunk, southside?
When you get p1ssed you know that you'll be back on the ball after a predictable amount of time - alcohol has a known ABV and is quality controlled. When you smoke da erb your reactions are impaired for days and you don't know whether you've just spent your kitty on Moroccan Black, Earl Grey or rabbit turd. Do you think your getting a safe and reliable dose of a harmless 'pharmaceutical'? In your figures do you include as drug deaths the people who are killed on the roads by smacked out drivers, or who kill themselves because they've mushed their brains etc. No. I didn't think so.

5. 'So, are you saying that we should continue to dismiss people for taking drugs whilst encouraging them to drink alcohol?...'
In a word, yes. And, as I said, the RAF does not encourage people to drink alcohol - maybe you've seen the anti alcohol posters around station. People can decide for themselves whether or not to booze. The few who cannot manage this small responsibility do get kicked out.

6. CDT is a waste of money.
No, I think it probably goes some way towards preventing more expensive drug related hull losses.


I truly think this is one area where civil liberties and all that jazz need to take a back seat in favour of a robust and firm zero tolerance 'no issue if you have nothing to hide' policy. I don't want to put my or my friends' lives in the hands of drug abusers. As Dubya once said 'Your either with us or against us'. If you are anti-CDT you are implicitly accepting increased drug use in the armed forces. Don't think, either, that many decent civvy companies doing responsible jobs would tolerate drug use. If you want the civvy viewpoint there was a thread running recently, (I think on Questions) where an aspiring ATPL student asked if he could continue to toke da erb. He was told in no uncertain terms where he stood.

If you want the right to follow a druggy lifestyle then you have no place in a professional military aviation organisation. End of story.

[Talking Radalt]

Ah, Talking Radalt.

Did CDT pick him up????

Actually you know something? You're right , it didn't.




























It was pre-CDT days.

[jobsworth]

Normally I like to just read the forum but feel I must post a response to this thread.

I left the Air Force a few years back and at the time had no problem with the concept of CDT. I now work for a large company that also uses random screening; they also have a strict no alcohol policy (its less than the drink drive limit). I still have no problem with this as it sets a standard required by the individuals it employs and one from which I have nothing to hide.

I do however feel that the mentality displayed by some of the people still serving can be described as slightly out of touch. To make it clear, the use of soft drugs does not necessarily mean the individual is going to go on to harder drugs in the same sense that someone who likes a sociable drink will not become an alcoholic.

The rate at which the public attitude views the use of recreational drugs is rapidly changing and it is from these people that future recruits will come from, their attitude will be different and it is something the armed forces on a whole are going to have to accept. They will have to positively encourage and teach a sensible attitude of restraint to either substance. At present the scare stories promoted by the powers that be are in effect wrong. They are outdated concepts not to dissimilar to the ideas that were promoted by the American government a few administrations back.

I have worked with both the military and the police force and having grown up in an area which is considered rife with both drugs and crime have seen that the promotion of ill informed advice and a oppressive attitude does nothing to tackle the problem, more so to drive it underground and promote a climate of distrust.