Troops stranded in Basra by grounded planes
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If we stop people coming out for "visits" we would have more seats for those who need them -ie those who are already 5 weeks late in getting home! We have 2 Health and Safety people out this week to make sure we don't get splinters from wood, when we get shot at each day anyway! As a direct result, 2 military guys were taken off the flight home to make way for the H+S blokes...
I do hope Jeremy Clarkson - with his deep seated loathing of the whole health and safety and enviro-fundamentalist claptrap industry - gets to hear of this! Particularly having just been in theatre himself.
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I do hope Jeremy Clarkson - with his deep seated loathing of the whole health and safety and enviro-fundamentalist claptrap industry - gets to hear of this! Particularly having just been in theatre himself.
That would be a nice little PR stunt!
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With all of the bearded virgin blokes new aircraft orders, he could well put up an aircraft for the challenge. However, finding a crew to fly it when they could be partying on anyone of Vs numerous routes - doubt it!
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Some of the posts seem to suggest problems are continuing. When I raised the issue in the Lords on Monday 10 Oct, the Minister, Lord Drayson said in his reply:
If this is not an accurate reflection of the current position, it would be helpful to know.
We recognise the vital importance to morale and not least to our operational capability of being able to move our troops. The Tristar aircraft which we use are old and it is very important to replace them as soon as possible. We have had operational difficulty, as the noble Lord mentions, with defences on the aircraft. Of course, we will take no risk with our personnel in those transfers. However, I am pleased to report to the House that the issues relating to those aircraft have now been resolved and that there are no stranded forces as a result. We are working hard on this issue and I am spending a lot of time on it.
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Correct- the C-17 for example, has been continually taken off non op tasks to pick up tasks for the Tri*. The troops in the non op locations are therefore left feeling the failings of the AT fleet as well.
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TLB DTMA
TVM, TTFN
HTH, SUL
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From The Times Online:
.....and just think, it was only a few years ago that we had to fight to keep any military AT capability that could carry passengers over strategic distances!
Hope to goodness that they hurry up with FSTA and that we can then satisfy AAR requirements as well as taking the Army wherever they want, when they want and also bail out the civilians whenever they don't have the capacity or can't get the insurance they need!
RAF could rescue Wilma Britons
The Royal Air Force could be used to rescue British tourists stranded in Mexico by Hurricane Wilma. Foreign Office Minister Lord Triesman said he had made an urgent appeal to the Ministry of Defence to help travellers unable to leave the stricken Yucatan region. "I am trying to identify every bit of lifting capacity that may be available. I am asking if they can give us any help. They are checking," he told reporters in London.
The Royal Air Force could be used to rescue British tourists stranded in Mexico by Hurricane Wilma. Foreign Office Minister Lord Triesman said he had made an urgent appeal to the Ministry of Defence to help travellers unable to leave the stricken Yucatan region. "I am trying to identify every bit of lifting capacity that may be available. I am asking if they can give us any help. They are checking," he told reporters in London.
Hope to goodness that they hurry up with FSTA and that we can then satisfy AAR requirements as well as taking the Army wherever they want, when they want and also bail out the civilians whenever they don't have the capacity or can't get the insurance they need!
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LFFC - The problem with AT capacity is that the Mod has to get so tied up with future requirements and costings that they get away from the issue that the requirement is now!
It would have made perfect sense circa 2000 to buy 3 or 4 more Tristar's on the world market at say $3 million a piece and use them to help bridge the gaps. Even if you ended up only using them for a couple of years it would have been a stop gap
and if the worst case senario is that you need to retire them quickly you have assets that can be spares recovered.
The current situation with retirement extensions for the VC-10 is both costly in terms of manufacturer support and fuel costs
alone. The expertise exists within the air force to acquire further
Tristars - they should utilise it now and try and spread some of the fleet hours out.
It would have made perfect sense circa 2000 to buy 3 or 4 more Tristar's on the world market at say $3 million a piece and use them to help bridge the gaps. Even if you ended up only using them for a couple of years it would have been a stop gap
and if the worst case senario is that you need to retire them quickly you have assets that can be spares recovered.
The current situation with retirement extensions for the VC-10 is both costly in terms of manufacturer support and fuel costs
alone. The expertise exists within the air force to acquire further
Tristars - they should utilise it now and try and spread some of the fleet hours out.
Short Blunt Shock
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The issue is NOT the age of the aircraft - the Herc J's serviceability is as bad as, if not worse than, the K's. There are 2 reasons for this:
1) Notice how commercial operators do not insist on an artificial AF/BF cycle - we tinker with and service our aircraft TOO MUCH, and fly them TOO LITTLE. Their aircraft are constantly in the air, until they need to go into the sheds for, er...scheds. If you turn aircraft off and leave them sitting around, they will break, simple as that.
What we need to do is up our crew / aircraft ratios. Airlines will typically run with an 8:1 ratio - the Herc fleet currently runs with 1.75:1. With more crews, we can work the aircraft harder. Compare the serviceability rates of deployed aircraft (Basrah, Balad, MPA, etc) that typically work hard with the frames that get left lying around at Lyneham. More flying hours, more crew training, more offers of AT capability to the wider defence community, etc etc. One of the problems currently being masked by the aircraft serviceability issues is the real lack of crews (or more specifically the lack of crews qualified and current for certain tasking). Yes, I know we don't exactly work the same way as an airline, but it is something worth bearing in mind.
2) The second reason for woeful serviceability, again nothing to do with the age of the aircraft, is the ridiculous spares policy. Basically, we no longer hold a sufficient reserve of spares to cover contingiencies - "Just-In-Time" does NOT work in this environment. This will affect ANY aircraft we operate, whether it is 40 years old or 40 days old - I offer you once again the J vs K serviceability as an example.
It is a sad indictment indeed when a single incident (mover crashing steps into Air Atlanta's SA 747 airbridge) can have such far-reaching ramifications (many many people late into / out of MPA, lack of freight delivery, pulling of Tristars from other tasks to cover, Tristars going u/s and delaying at virtually every stop, and so on and so forth). We truly have reached the bottom of the barrel on the AT fleet - sadly I don't think a fleet of shiny new aircraft is going to help.
16B
1) Notice how commercial operators do not insist on an artificial AF/BF cycle - we tinker with and service our aircraft TOO MUCH, and fly them TOO LITTLE. Their aircraft are constantly in the air, until they need to go into the sheds for, er...scheds. If you turn aircraft off and leave them sitting around, they will break, simple as that.
What we need to do is up our crew / aircraft ratios. Airlines will typically run with an 8:1 ratio - the Herc fleet currently runs with 1.75:1. With more crews, we can work the aircraft harder. Compare the serviceability rates of deployed aircraft (Basrah, Balad, MPA, etc) that typically work hard with the frames that get left lying around at Lyneham. More flying hours, more crew training, more offers of AT capability to the wider defence community, etc etc. One of the problems currently being masked by the aircraft serviceability issues is the real lack of crews (or more specifically the lack of crews qualified and current for certain tasking). Yes, I know we don't exactly work the same way as an airline, but it is something worth bearing in mind.
2) The second reason for woeful serviceability, again nothing to do with the age of the aircraft, is the ridiculous spares policy. Basically, we no longer hold a sufficient reserve of spares to cover contingiencies - "Just-In-Time" does NOT work in this environment. This will affect ANY aircraft we operate, whether it is 40 years old or 40 days old - I offer you once again the J vs K serviceability as an example.
It is a sad indictment indeed when a single incident (mover crashing steps into Air Atlanta's SA 747 airbridge) can have such far-reaching ramifications (many many people late into / out of MPA, lack of freight delivery, pulling of Tristars from other tasks to cover, Tristars going u/s and delaying at virtually every stop, and so on and so forth). We truly have reached the bottom of the barrel on the AT fleet - sadly I don't think a fleet of shiny new aircraft is going to help.
16B
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16 Blades,
You’re quite correct – if you turn off modern aircraft and leave them sitting around, they do indeed break as you start them up again! Civilian aircraft like the TriStar were never designed to be used and maintained the way we do so. It’s worth remembering that, when one of the C2 TriStars was “bounced” back in the 80’s, the other C2 flew the South Atlantic schedule on its own for 18 months without loosing a sortie! However, it was being serviced by BA at the time! So it really can be done!
Be careful when you talk about increasing the number of crews and working the aircraft harder to improve their serviceability. If you do that, you’d need a huge amount of additional flying hours – and that would cost big bucks! The fun detectors would soon realise that by using that logic, they could achieve the improvements you describe by reducing the number of aircraft without having to increase the flying hours!
You’re also absolutely correct about the spares policy. Unfortunately, in this case you are driven by MOD wide policy which (despite the best efforts of your technicians) may not be the best way of running your business. That’s why a new system is required – not just a shiny new aircraft!
From what I can understand, this is precisely what the FSTA project is out to achieve. The MOD’s contract with Airtanker will get civilians (who are the experts at supporting, maintaining and servicing modern airliners) to manage the process that provides you with serviceable FSTA whenever you need them.
From what I can see, the sooner you get FSTA up and running, the better it will be for everyone!
PS. - No, I don't work for Airtanker!!
You’re quite correct – if you turn off modern aircraft and leave them sitting around, they do indeed break as you start them up again! Civilian aircraft like the TriStar were never designed to be used and maintained the way we do so. It’s worth remembering that, when one of the C2 TriStars was “bounced” back in the 80’s, the other C2 flew the South Atlantic schedule on its own for 18 months without loosing a sortie! However, it was being serviced by BA at the time! So it really can be done!
Be careful when you talk about increasing the number of crews and working the aircraft harder to improve their serviceability. If you do that, you’d need a huge amount of additional flying hours – and that would cost big bucks! The fun detectors would soon realise that by using that logic, they could achieve the improvements you describe by reducing the number of aircraft without having to increase the flying hours!
You’re also absolutely correct about the spares policy. Unfortunately, in this case you are driven by MOD wide policy which (despite the best efforts of your technicians) may not be the best way of running your business. That’s why a new system is required – not just a shiny new aircraft!
From what I can understand, this is precisely what the FSTA project is out to achieve. The MOD’s contract with Airtanker will get civilians (who are the experts at supporting, maintaining and servicing modern airliners) to manage the process that provides you with serviceable FSTA whenever you need them.
From what I can see, the sooner you get FSTA up and running, the better it will be for everyone!
PS. - No, I don't work for Airtanker!!
So, does the RAF need to rebalance?
Less FJ Sqns and more SH and AT?
Should the streaming policy direct the more capable students towards where they are constantly needed?
Does everyone have do go down the FJ pilot until proven otherwise route?
Less FJ Sqns and more SH and AT?
Should the streaming policy direct the more capable students towards where they are constantly needed?
Does everyone have do go down the FJ pilot until proven otherwise route?
Last edited by serf; 29th Oct 2005 at 21:01.
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Serf,
Some good questions. It’s true to say that, for some years now the RAF have been more often called upon by their allies to provide SH, Canberras and Tankers (in no particular order) during operations. From what I’ve heard, that’s mainly because the RAF are damned good at those jobs and often provide capabilities (like wing refuelling points) that are in short supply. Mind you, the arrival of Typhoon may change that.
Regarding streaming, it’s a fact that FJ pilots require a high degree of mental capacity, agility of thought and - dare I say it – arrogance. As those qualities are harder to find than just the ability to operate multi-engine and rotary wing aircraft, it makes sense to give everyone the chance to display them during initial flying training.
Some good questions. It’s true to say that, for some years now the RAF have been more often called upon by their allies to provide SH, Canberras and Tankers (in no particular order) during operations. From what I’ve heard, that’s mainly because the RAF are damned good at those jobs and often provide capabilities (like wing refuelling points) that are in short supply. Mind you, the arrival of Typhoon may change that.
Regarding streaming, it’s a fact that FJ pilots require a high degree of mental capacity, agility of thought and - dare I say it – arrogance. As those qualities are harder to find than just the ability to operate multi-engine and rotary wing aircraft, it makes sense to give everyone the chance to display them during initial flying training.
Rebel PPRuNer
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In Canada there's an parliamentary undersecretary with responsibility for "Canadians abroad" - 
- however, he stunned the media with some remarkable good sense when he noted that going to the Caribbean in hurricane season is risky and you shouldn't expect government to get you out, especially when you haven't told the government in advance you will be there.
Getting people out of Mexico is a civil matter between them and their tour op. Full stop.
- however, he stunned the media with some remarkable good sense when he noted that going to the Caribbean in hurricane season is risky and you shouldn't expect government to get you out, especially when you haven't told the government in advance you will be there.Getting people out of Mexico is a civil matter between them and their tour op. Full stop.
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It's also a civil matter to decide which party governs the country. So its not surprising that the minds of those in power are usually focused by the plight of their civilian population.
"he stunned the media with some remarkable good sense"
Can I get an Amen here? Have him send his CV to Washington, DC please. I'm sure he will be needing a job after he is crucified for reminding people of their personal responsibilities.
Can I get an Amen here? Have him send his CV to Washington, DC please. I'm sure he will be needing a job after he is crucified for reminding people of their personal responsibilities.
