Civil vs Military vs Civil Debate (Was part of RAF Role in Norway Airliner Crash)
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Well the military lied about shooting down an Italian DC9 and a TWA 747 so this is only a little porkey-pie by their jaundiced standards of honesty;they think b*gger all of busting into controlled airspace in c*cked-up terrain avoidance manouveres and horse around class g airspace with u/s (or switched off )tpndrs, what do you expect? professionalism/consideration or honesty? . . .look elsewhere.
Short Blunt Shock
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Do not denigrate that which you obviously do not understand.
Perhaps you are referring to low-level weather aborts, an emergency, for which we squawk 7700 if penetrating controlled airspace. It is always the last option used when the weather closes in at low level and there is nowhere else to go. It is better than flying into cumulo-granite.
Transponders are not mandatory in class G. But then, if you had any
then you would know this. Perhaps by "Horse around", you meant "conduct essential operational training", again something seemingly beyond your comprehension.
You obviously have no knowledge of military operations. I'd stick to your playstation if I were you.
16B
they think b*gger all of busting into controlled airspace in c*cked-up terrain avoidance manouveres
and horse around class g airspace with u/s (or switched off )tpndrs
professionalism/consideration or honesty
You obviously have no knowledge of military operations. I'd stick to your playstation if I were you.
16B
Too many inconsistencies here...
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Transponders are not mandatory in class G. But then, if you had any quote: professionalism/consideration or honesty then you would know this.
Perhaps applying the same rule to military aircraft may have averted a recent well publicised Airprox between a pair of Hawks and a Dash 8. Purely conjecture of course
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
N380UA, Itavia Flight 870, see here
"All this facts would still perhaps be declared for fantasy, if there was not a group of Sicilian shepherds, which, almost a month after the crash, on 18 July 1980, found a wreckage of an unknown military jet on the northern side of the 1929 meter high Mount Sila, in the middle of the Italian province of Calabria. The body of the pilot was still tied on his ejection seat, and on his helmet, the name of the pilot was written: Ezedin Koal. The investigators found out, that Koal flew a MiG-23 of the Libyan Arab Republic Air Force. According to the following autopsy he was dead for at least 15 to 20 days. The investigation of the wreckage showed, that the crash was most probably caused by an air-to-air missile, which exploded in close proximity of the plane and damaged fuel tanks. Immediately, there were evident attempts from Italian military authorities to clear all the links between this accident and the downing of the DC-9. It was explained, that the plane crashed while the pilot tried to defect to Italy. However, nobody tried to explain officially how could a Libyan MiG-23 fly so deep into the Italian airspace, without being detected by any of Italian and NATO-radars in the vicinity or why would a damaged Libyan MiG-23 hit the northern side of a mountain on Calabria, if the pilot tried to defect from Libya?"
"All this facts would still perhaps be declared for fantasy, if there was not a group of Sicilian shepherds, which, almost a month after the crash, on 18 July 1980, found a wreckage of an unknown military jet on the northern side of the 1929 meter high Mount Sila, in the middle of the Italian province of Calabria. The body of the pilot was still tied on his ejection seat, and on his helmet, the name of the pilot was written: Ezedin Koal. The investigators found out, that Koal flew a MiG-23 of the Libyan Arab Republic Air Force. According to the following autopsy he was dead for at least 15 to 20 days. The investigation of the wreckage showed, that the crash was most probably caused by an air-to-air missile, which exploded in close proximity of the plane and damaged fuel tanks. Immediately, there were evident attempts from Italian military authorities to clear all the links between this accident and the downing of the DC-9. It was explained, that the plane crashed while the pilot tried to defect to Italy. However, nobody tried to explain officially how could a Libyan MiG-23 fly so deep into the Italian airspace, without being detected by any of Italian and NATO-radars in the vicinity or why would a damaged Libyan MiG-23 hit the northern side of a mountain on Calabria, if the pilot tried to defect from Libya?"
I presume the reference to the TWA 747 is to TWA flight 800, which was brought down by US Navy missiles/little green men/terrorists depending upon who you happen to be reading.
Google 'TWA Flight 800' then spend hours trying to sort plausible theory from wild speculation.
Google 'TWA Flight 800' then spend hours trying to sort plausible theory from wild speculation.
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ORAC and Archimedes,yep thats the ones;in my absence thanks for that.16 Blades,call it what you like but a "professional pilot" should be capable of levelling off at MSA ie below or at the base of controlled airspace rather than blundering several thousand feet into it,not an unreasonable request assuming in the heat of the moment our steely eyed ace can remember MSA. . surely!As for mandatory fitment /usage of Tpndr in Class G,I believe it was fitted, but off or u/s in the Hawk- Dash 8 encounter;as I said professionalism / consideration(for those without the option to eject)from military pilots and their employer would go a long way to prevent these things. . .along with basic flying skills and a moral view of the big picture. . one day mate you will either be a civil pilot, or sitting in high office explaining why one of your lads wiped me and 194 other civvies out, better you have a more convincing explanation than "but the poor lad flew into a cloud". . eh?
Pprune Radar,
As I posted in another thread, you can use Airprox Reports to assist whatever argument you wish to push on here. I could quote a whole host of Civil versus Civil reports if I wanted to but that would be peurile. The particular airprox you refer to, had a whole host of factors (like most incidents) that led to the incident. Not just the "loss of SSR data" from the hawks. These factors are discussed in full and published in context, in the report.
Now if you want to discuss the mandatory carriage of SSR for ALL aircraft in the entire UK, then I am with you on that one. Although, I bet there would be a very strong GA and gliding lobby against it.
As I posted in another thread, you can use Airprox Reports to assist whatever argument you wish to push on here. I could quote a whole host of Civil versus Civil reports if I wanted to but that would be peurile. The particular airprox you refer to, had a whole host of factors (like most incidents) that led to the incident. Not just the "loss of SSR data" from the hawks. These factors are discussed in full and published in context, in the report.
Now if you want to discuss the mandatory carriage of SSR for ALL aircraft in the entire UK, then I am with you on that one. Although, I bet there would be a very strong GA and gliding lobby against it.
Captainplaypen
Please tell me you are winding us up, or trying to fish for responses. If you truly believe what you are writing then you are cordially invited to come and follow us through a planning cycle and see just how much effort we put into avoiding all of those things you have just ridiculously accused us mil pilots of doing.
Once I can be certain of how genuine you are I may get round to telling you what I really think of you and your opinions.
BV
PS. B@ll end.
Once I can be certain of how genuine you are I may get round to telling you what I really think of you and your opinions.
BV
PS. B@ll end.
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Widger
I don't recall saying anything here about blame on either party so have no axe to grind there. So it's not a civil good guy, military bad guy argument I am making. My point was that at least two of the civil safety nets which would have stopped the Swiss cheese lining up and causing this Airprox were disabled because of a difference in the rules for carraige of equipment between civil and military aircraft. No doubt if we have a midair one day where this is found to be a factor which could have saved the day. then the stable door will shut with an incredible bang swiftly followed by all sorts of draconian procedures and equipment requirements which might encroach on essential operational freedoms currently enjoyed by the military.
You may think it peurile, but if you can point me to a report on any civil air transport aircraft involved in an Airprox where the other party was a non transponding civil aircraft operating above FL100, I'd gladly read it and make comments on it.
As for the thread topic, I go along with those who think any military involvement in this tragic Norwegian accident is a fanciful conspiracy theory.
I don't recall saying anything here about blame on either party so have no axe to grind there. So it's not a civil good guy, military bad guy argument I am making. My point was that at least two of the civil safety nets which would have stopped the Swiss cheese lining up and causing this Airprox were disabled because of a difference in the rules for carraige of equipment between civil and military aircraft. No doubt if we have a midair one day where this is found to be a factor which could have saved the day. then the stable door will shut with an incredible bang swiftly followed by all sorts of draconian procedures and equipment requirements which might encroach on essential operational freedoms currently enjoyed by the military.
You may think it peurile, but if you can point me to a report on any civil air transport aircraft involved in an Airprox where the other party was a non transponding civil aircraft operating above FL100, I'd gladly read it and make comments on it.
As for the thread topic, I go along with those who think any military involvement in this tragic Norwegian accident is a fanciful conspiracy theory.
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Captain dickf@ck
Please tell me you are baiting!!
I have lost track of the times that i have been on the receiving end of an astoudingly bad airmanship decision which appears to have been made by people such as yourself for purely financial reasons, rather than for anything resembling flight safety.
The organisation I work for prides itself on the way it deals with all aspects of aviation, non more so than accident prevention!! That means if i f@ck up, I can be given a bolly, be grounded or much worse. Question for you then, what consequences are there for you when you f@ck it? What institutuion monitors some of the increasingly dangerous decisions that some of your brethren take?
You want examples??
How about the airline crew who lost an engine shortly after take off, but decided to press to their final destination, purely because that is where the companys servicing/repairs were based? A financial decision rather than flight safety decision if ever i saw it!
How about the airline crew who refused to take a 20 degree heading change, or refused to maintain a FL to blunder through the middle of an 8 ship working night, lights out PI's because, and i quote" Its class g airspace eand we are entitled to use it."
Well yes fella, you are. But flight safety should be the responsibility of all aircrew and shouldn't rely solely on me getting contact with a stranger on my scope, 30 secs from merge and having to call a knock it off. Bottom line, the crew of that airline wantede to take the shortest route possible for fuel and they didn't care a damn about flight safety.
What about the numerous crews who seem unable to either a./ change to the correct frquency, b./ go back to the previous frequency if nothing is heard or c./ monitor guard. I've lost track of the times i have raced from my bed because your superior airmanship skills still seem to prevent you from doing something which one would assume to be a basic skill of even a PPL, let alone a ATPL.
Its already been commented on in the national press, i wonder how long it is until joe public starts to realize that some companys are more professional than others.
I wonder how long it is before the insurance companys realize that certain companys seem to make flagrant breaches of common sense, airmanship and flight safety on a regular basis.
Fella, suggest you start looking closer to home if you want to make comments about peoples professionalism.
Tw
t
Please tell me you are baiting!!
I have lost track of the times that i have been on the receiving end of an astoudingly bad airmanship decision which appears to have been made by people such as yourself for purely financial reasons, rather than for anything resembling flight safety.
The organisation I work for prides itself on the way it deals with all aspects of aviation, non more so than accident prevention!! That means if i f@ck up, I can be given a bolly, be grounded or much worse. Question for you then, what consequences are there for you when you f@ck it? What institutuion monitors some of the increasingly dangerous decisions that some of your brethren take?
You want examples??
How about the airline crew who lost an engine shortly after take off, but decided to press to their final destination, purely because that is where the companys servicing/repairs were based? A financial decision rather than flight safety decision if ever i saw it!
How about the airline crew who refused to take a 20 degree heading change, or refused to maintain a FL to blunder through the middle of an 8 ship working night, lights out PI's because, and i quote" Its class g airspace eand we are entitled to use it."
Well yes fella, you are. But flight safety should be the responsibility of all aircrew and shouldn't rely solely on me getting contact with a stranger on my scope, 30 secs from merge and having to call a knock it off. Bottom line, the crew of that airline wantede to take the shortest route possible for fuel and they didn't care a damn about flight safety.
What about the numerous crews who seem unable to either a./ change to the correct frquency, b./ go back to the previous frequency if nothing is heard or c./ monitor guard. I've lost track of the times i have raced from my bed because your superior airmanship skills still seem to prevent you from doing something which one would assume to be a basic skill of even a PPL, let alone a ATPL.
Its already been commented on in the national press, i wonder how long it is until joe public starts to realize that some companys are more professional than others.
I wonder how long it is before the insurance companys realize that certain companys seem to make flagrant breaches of common sense, airmanship and flight safety on a regular basis.
Fella, suggest you start looking closer to home if you want to make comments about peoples professionalism.
Tw
t
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Captain Pilchard,
What on earth makes you think that Mil crews are not professional enough to avoid airproxes of the nature you describe?! Do you not think that the military crew would be doing everything possible to avoid an airprox or do you think we're all suicidal!
The planning of low-level sorties in any military aircraft is meticulous and far-reaching and every effort is made to avoid flying in areas where safety altitude is higher than the base of controlled air space. The low-level abort is an emergency manoeuvre and is only flown in anger if it absolutely necessary. Not only would it be flown for real in an intensely stressful situation (going IMC at low-level is not nice), its not in itself a manoeuvre without its own complications. As far as levelling at MSA is concerned, that would indeed be the ideal but may not always be the priortity. You are going up at max possible climb rate after all, and in a hawk that is pretty damn quick.
Please don't tar the military with the 'unprofessional' brush- I have seen far more indefenceable breaches of airmanship from your brethren in the pursuit of a fast buck. And while we're on the subject, perish the thought you chaps could actually execute a good lookout scan now and again.
What on earth makes you think that Mil crews are not professional enough to avoid airproxes of the nature you describe?! Do you not think that the military crew would be doing everything possible to avoid an airprox or do you think we're all suicidal!
The planning of low-level sorties in any military aircraft is meticulous and far-reaching and every effort is made to avoid flying in areas where safety altitude is higher than the base of controlled air space. The low-level abort is an emergency manoeuvre and is only flown in anger if it absolutely necessary. Not only would it be flown for real in an intensely stressful situation (going IMC at low-level is not nice), its not in itself a manoeuvre without its own complications. As far as levelling at MSA is concerned, that would indeed be the ideal but may not always be the priortity. You are going up at max possible climb rate after all, and in a hawk that is pretty damn quick.
Please don't tar the military with the 'unprofessional' brush- I have seen far more indefenceable breaches of airmanship from your brethren in the pursuit of a fast buck. And while we're on the subject, perish the thought you chaps could actually execute a good lookout scan now and again.
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Engage flagrant bias...
Mil chaps - spot on.
Catplaystation - do F*** off.
As an Air Tragicker in the VoY I have seen poor airmanship on the civvy side that can almost make you cry, and equivalent from civ controllers (bad scopemanship?), all in the name of cash. The inevitable proxes are then rigourously filed and rather cynically leaked to the press, who unfailingly adopt badly researched "Mil cowboys ar5ing around endanger lives of innocent civillians, heroic civ captain saves the day" type storylines.
Their grand scheme is, we believe, an extra bit of CAS that would effectively knacker us for fixed wing ops.
My point is we all make mistakes, but I think we all know who makes most... A bit of tolerance and understanding from both sides is needed.
A while ago...
Civ controller at neighbouring unit
"Are your XXXXXs flying today? It cost us about £20000 yesterday avoiding them"
Mil Sup in reply
"Seeing as the RAF built your airport, that doesn't seem unreasonable!"
Mil chaps - spot on.
Catplaystation - do F*** off.
As an Air Tragicker in the VoY I have seen poor airmanship on the civvy side that can almost make you cry, and equivalent from civ controllers (bad scopemanship?), all in the name of cash. The inevitable proxes are then rigourously filed and rather cynically leaked to the press, who unfailingly adopt badly researched "Mil cowboys ar5ing around endanger lives of innocent civillians, heroic civ captain saves the day" type storylines.
Their grand scheme is, we believe, an extra bit of CAS that would effectively knacker us for fixed wing ops.
My point is we all make mistakes, but I think we all know who makes most... A bit of tolerance and understanding from both sides is needed.
A while ago...
Civ controller at neighbouring unit
"Are your XXXXXs flying today? It cost us about £20000 yesterday avoiding them"
Mil Sup in reply
"Seeing as the RAF built your airport, that doesn't seem unreasonable!"
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Well well I seem to have touched a nerve here;unfortunately the rather rugby-club level of insult you have to resort to rather reinforces my belief that a large number of you are cocky,trigger-happy,"I'm the best"ego-tistical immature bigots that seem ideal material to shoot down/ collide with whatever happens to be in the way,but then again your aggresive I know best response rather confirms why they hired you in the first place!As for the original subject do you honestly trust your political masters to allow your superiors to admit to such an error in a sensitive location or indeed the Italians/Americans to have like-wise owned up?No, far easier to close ranks and blame it on these dumbies in civvie-land.Maybe if you see so many errors from us it has something to do with how many times a week we have the chance to err;if I spent as long on planning/practising as you guys I'd damn well hope to get it right.Your "we military guys can teach you civvies how to fly professionaly"attitude bodes well for your integration into a multi-crew cockpit .For the record in 28yrs flying I've seen as many turkeys as eagles from your side,just like my team.
Short Blunt Shock
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along with basic flying skills
,"I'm the best"
"we military guys can teach you civvies how to fly professionaly"attitude bodes well for your integration into a multi-crew cockpit
16B
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Captplaystation's litterary skills are not up to much either. Obviously far too professional an aviator to spend much time on the ground learning writing skills too.
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Flew once with a Belgian C130 captain who happened to think he was ace of the base.Hired by a military-sympathetic management ,I couldn't have sent him solo as a PPL student.On a slightly bumpy day this "pilot" who was hired amazingly as a Captain, gave such an amazing display of PIO that I had to take control to avoid either making all aboard puke or actually witnessing loss of control;amazingly inept piloting from someone who was so sure he was so ready for command in civvy street.Like I said 28 years of eagles and turkeys in about the same proportion civil/military and I have plenty of non UK company experience, and surprise surprise, the above still holds true.Sorry but that is harsh reality,ask your civvy mates. . .if you have any;you guys should get out more.(incidentally its quite an eye opener to end up by way of a moved post in the military forum, you guys are very,how can I put it . . .defensive Hmn.Looking at the other"contributions"that have appeared since I entered this posting I am so unsurprised by the usual arrogance and agressiveness associated with your clan; no wonder you are so detested when you run out of war games to play and come cap-in-hand to teach us sub-standards how to fly (oh, and reed & WrIGht too thanks guys) next time you want to go somewhere for the weekend I'll try and keep my crab terrain avoidance TA RA manouvere smooth to avoid waking up the young lady you have just sent to sleep with your war-stories.Toodle-pip,back to civvy forums for me I think(good-night and good-riddance he heard echoing from the mess)
Last edited by captplaystation; 21st Sep 2005 at 22:17.