Changes to MoD helicopter low level training rules
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Hit a nerve here obviously. Very mature to try and slag me off i'm sure...
Read what I said. There are areas in the UK where we can fly 'in the weeds', as you so put it. I am not denying that the skill is worthwhile.
I stand by what I said with regards to the threat and DAS systems. I am not going to get into a slagging match about what I know or what I do, but I would say that transit flying over the rolling hills of the UK at 50' doesn't prepare you for 50' over the desert at night anyway, even if there was tactical reasons to do so.
Read what I said. There are areas in the UK where we can fly 'in the weeds', as you so put it. I am not denying that the skill is worthwhile.
I stand by what I said with regards to the threat and DAS systems. I am not going to get into a slagging match about what I know or what I do, but I would say that transit flying over the rolling hills of the UK at 50' doesn't prepare you for 50' over the desert at night anyway, even if there was tactical reasons to do so.
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Train hard, fight easy that's what I say.
A DAS between you and a SAM system = fairly effective
A DAS between you and a raghead+AK47 = totaly ineffective.
Large range between you and raghead+ AK47= very effective
Lumps of rock between you and almost all sytems = 100% effective.
Take your pick.
The thing that pisses me off is that the voracity of the general public's anti LF sentiment is inversely proportional to their lattitude. 65 years ago i suggest the opposite would have been true.
The UK enjoys a feedom and economic well-being that it could be argued is a direct result of the training and therefore ability of all of our armed forces. A little bit of noise is such a small price to pay.
A DAS between you and a SAM system = fairly effective
A DAS between you and a raghead+AK47 = totaly ineffective.
Large range between you and raghead+ AK47= very effective
Lumps of rock between you and almost all sytems = 100% effective.
Take your pick.
The thing that pisses me off is that the voracity of the general public's anti LF sentiment is inversely proportional to their lattitude. 65 years ago i suggest the opposite would have been true.
The UK enjoys a feedom and economic well-being that it could be argued is a direct result of the training and therefore ability of all of our armed forces. A little bit of noise is such a small price to pay.
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The thing that pisses me off is that the voracity of the general public's anti LF sentiment is inversely proportional to their lattitude. 65 years ago i suggest the opposite would have been true.
In the 70's said mate was working as low flying complaints biatch. Irate old woman calls to complain about jets scaring her and flying too low. Mate replies with "could you see the markings on the aircraft?"
Old woman: "Yes i could even make out the pilots"
Mate: "Were the markings red stars?"
Old woman "No they were not!"
Mate: "Well think yourself lucky" puts phone down!
If only things were that simple nowadays!
Join Date: Apr 2005
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It is was unfortunate that someone was allegedly killed by their horse bolting due to a low flying Chinook. I say allegedly as I am someone who has seen horses spooked by something as simple as a crisp packet fluttering in the hedge line.
Lets be honest, a half ton of simple minded animal trotting around the countryside can and will do what ever it wants, no matter how much 'in control' the rider seems to think they are. A 9 stone woman is never really in control of such a beast, just getting along as best they can.
Its a shame the knee jerk reaction has led to this restriction placed on training that is more than ever important to the safety and operational effectiveness of the RAF and other aviation units.
Lets be honest, a half ton of simple minded animal trotting around the countryside can and will do what ever it wants, no matter how much 'in control' the rider seems to think they are. A 9 stone woman is never really in control of such a beast, just getting along as best they can.
Its a shame the knee jerk reaction has led to this restriction placed on training that is more than ever important to the safety and operational effectiveness of the RAF and other aviation units.
Last edited by The Helpful Stacker; 18th Sep 2005 at 17:03.
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Issues vital to the defence of the State should not be subject to approval by minority interest groups who engage in dangerous sports.
However as a tax payer I expect the MOD to have to foot the bill to compensate when a tragic accident like this one happens.
It is my opinion that in the long run realistic low flying training is the cheapest option in terms of money and lives but I don't think that my opinion would have much sway with the readers of Horse & Hound !
However as a tax payer I expect the MOD to have to foot the bill to compensate when a tragic accident like this one happens.
It is my opinion that in the long run realistic low flying training is the cheapest option in terms of money and lives but I don't think that my opinion would have much sway with the readers of Horse & Hound !
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So when the next horse is spooked by a Chinook at 100ft, do we then move up to 250'? 500'? When does it end - I am vehemently against this reduction in capability.
a) 50' transit trg IS relevent - whatever theatre a crew is practicing for (Despite what some may say on here).
b) As has been previously stated, the tactics of the Military should not be dictated by the whims of a minority dangerous-sports society.
c) Just as many horses will continue to be spooked by cars, kites, clouds, balloons or crisp packets as well as ac operating at 100ft.
If we are not careful we will end up like the Americans where low flying is a 'Special Ops' skill only and all their standard mates have been flying round Iraq at 500' getting their asses shot off.
(Sorry if I'm not mature enough for PPRUNE)
a) 50' transit trg IS relevent - whatever theatre a crew is practicing for (Despite what some may say on here).
b) As has been previously stated, the tactics of the Military should not be dictated by the whims of a minority dangerous-sports society.
c) Just as many horses will continue to be spooked by cars, kites, clouds, balloons or crisp packets as well as ac operating at 100ft.
If we are not careful we will end up like the Americans where low flying is a 'Special Ops' skill only and all their standard mates have been flying round Iraq at 500' getting their asses shot off.
(Sorry if I'm not mature enough for PPRUNE)
there is a need for low flying - getting the time and place right is the key thing. low flying in the south of england and other areas where there are lots of people is probably not going to get too many votes from joe public - likewise night flying training in the middle of summer past 2200hrs is not too clever either.
low flying - north of scotland
night flying - winter
low flying - north of scotland
night flying - winter
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People who tow their horses to events in cars don't ask for cars to be banned from roads in the event of a car v horse incident. As a country boy and an SH mate I know that horse owners will blame anything or anyone except themselves, it's human nature. And by the way, why should the Jocks and the Taffs have to bear the brunt of jet noise. If low flying is an essential part of our military doctrine and therefore foreign policy on operations, and is of benefit to the UK and her allies, the people of the UK should share the burden; not just those on low wages who can't afford horses and parlimentary questions.
How times change. Remember the Jag mid air collision with a light aircraft over Mid Wales in the early 90's? Bits of turbine landing in the primary school playground etc. Whilst there was some fringe grumbling from the usual suspects I recall nearly all the locals seeing very much the RAF point of view. Bits of high speed aluminium landing on the village was much the preferable option to not having an effective armed forces.
People are softer now, expect more compensation and the lawyers and courts are all geared up for it.
Whilst doing nothing positive for recruitment or retention is a move towards remoter parts of the world on the cards for everything that needs to fly low?
WWW
People are softer now, expect more compensation and the lawyers and courts are all geared up for it.
Whilst doing nothing positive for recruitment or retention is a move towards remoter parts of the world on the cards for everything that needs to fly low?
WWW
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If we need to Low fly in an operational environment (and I agree that we do) then we should train for that environment. Wazzing across the yorkshire moors at low level will not help you train to insert a bunch of booties in Iraq.
There is no operational or training benefit from wazzing around at 50' in the UK.
There is no operational or training benefit from wazzing around at 50' in the UK.
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So Southside, where is this magical place that'll provide us with all of our training needs for all of the places that we could deploy in the next few years. Prehaps we could continue what we do at the moment and do our best with what we've got. Post solutions not problems.
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Well perhaps if we call it preparation for a Civil War we can continue to
Of course we could always ask future aggressors to give us 18 months warning in writing minimum so that we could find ourselves a training area in a country suitable in conditions to the one we will be operating in. Or we could just go on doing what we are doing, after all the fundamentals of low flying are the same, just the terrain over which it is flown varies, of course in my humble opinion as a 'mere' stacker.
go wazzing over Lincolnshire and Norfolk.
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Having been away for a while, my initial take on this whole thread is one of 2 options:
1. Either some people are out big game fishing (and winning)
OR
2. There are some complete and utter ar5es out there who subscribe to the whole anti-forces-doing their-job thing.
I know where my thoughts lie. So leave us alone so that we can do our job.
To avoid the inevitable grief coming my way, I'll go back to the GAFA to make up my 6 months of the year away, because as we all know, we are stretched almost to breaking point, but we still keep going. All it needs is somone to admit it, but I'll save that for another thread............
Good Day!
AA
1. Either some people are out big game fishing (and winning)
OR
2. There are some complete and utter ar5es out there who subscribe to the whole anti-forces-doing their-job thing.
I know where my thoughts lie. So leave us alone so that we can do our job.
To avoid the inevitable grief coming my way, I'll go back to the GAFA to make up my 6 months of the year away, because as we all know, we are stretched almost to breaking point, but we still keep going. All it needs is somone to admit it, but I'll save that for another thread............
Good Day!
AA
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well, im still one of those that enjoys seeing an aircraft buzz over the top of me at a low height!!!
im sure most of the public fel the same. In these PC times we over look some amazingly obvious facts when an occasional death occurs.... for instance...
Ban cigarettes? thousands die a year..
Ban cars?again, thousands...
Alcohol?licensed guns?jet skis?Boats?
the list is endless... i would rather our guys trained to fly low and be good at it so when needed they can rely on going as low as they need to operationally...
im sure most of the public fel the same. In these PC times we over look some amazingly obvious facts when an occasional death occurs.... for instance...
Ban cigarettes? thousands die a year..
Ban cars?again, thousands...
Alcohol?licensed guns?jet skis?Boats?
the list is endless... i would rather our guys trained to fly low and be good at it so when needed they can rely on going as low as they need to operationally...
Why not position some aircraft in a friendly country that has vast amounts of wide open vacant spaces and send aircrew there on short term postings....do yer cowboying and come home when yer done. Canada has lots of room for you...even the USA with a small place called West Texas...Nevada....Alaska has room for you. What about Africa....what government down there gives a hoot what the indigenous residents has to say. Think outside the box here guys....there are simple solutions...and still do the training. Better yet...go to Iraq....do it in real time conditions....would be very realistic training now wouldn't it.
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So what you’re saying SASLESS is that it’s ok to kill foreigners on low flying exercises but not our own, especially in Africa. UNBELIEVABLE
Anyway I’m sure Sir Bob Geldof would have something to say about it!!!!!
R1a
Anyway I’m sure Sir Bob Geldof would have something to say about it!!!!!
R1a
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No, no... SASLess has a good point here.
There is little or no training benefit from training at Low level in the UK. Too many built up areas, too many restricted areas and too many tax payers moaning. So, lets find a training area in the USA which could include all environments we could possibly be sent too and build a Low Flying training school there.
There is little or no training benefit from training at Low level in the UK. Too many built up areas, too many restricted areas and too many tax payers moaning. So, lets find a training area in the USA which could include all environments we could possibly be sent too and build a Low Flying training school there.