What actually happened? (Typhoo versus F15)
RJ,
Hmm. Sorry. should have picked that up.
But I don't think the AK boys were aiming to lose, either, though the results did prove to be a very useful justification for F/A-22 just when such a justification was most useful.
Gegene,
The French broke contractual obligations in Singapore by revealing that Typhoon had been dropped.
The French gave at least as much detail about Typhoon's evaluation performance in Singapore as did folk from BAE and the RAF - probably more.
The Singaporeans are clever enough to differentiate between what the bid team revealed (virtually nothing) and what journos ferreted out).
Hmm. Sorry. should have picked that up.
But I don't think the AK boys were aiming to lose, either, though the results did prove to be a very useful justification for F/A-22 just when such a justification was most useful.
Gegene,
The French broke contractual obligations in Singapore by revealing that Typhoon had been dropped.
The French gave at least as much detail about Typhoon's evaluation performance in Singapore as did folk from BAE and the RAF - probably more.
The Singaporeans are clever enough to differentiate between what the bid team revealed (virtually nothing) and what journos ferreted out).
Join Date: Apr 2000
Location: uk
Posts: 50
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well said Jagmate and raymond. The chance encounter of two different jets of whatever type can rarely determine the jets capabilities but more like who saw who first and with what, either the mk 1 eyeball or a sensor of some description. Even in a planned evolution at the merge the eventual winner will not always be down to the capabilities of the aircraft type.
I have seen hud footage of a Mig 29 being gunned by a Sea Harrier having already soaked up 2 sidewinders !! In a planned and briefed engagement. Is that an example of a superior visual fighter? I think not, just one with more SA at the merge.
People with a little knowledge are a dangerous thing, well maybe not dangerous, just make themselves out to look like t#@ts in an arena populated by experts !!
I have seen hud footage of a Mig 29 being gunned by a Sea Harrier having already soaked up 2 sidewinders !! In a planned and briefed engagement. Is that an example of a superior visual fighter? I think not, just one with more SA at the merge.
People with a little knowledge are a dangerous thing, well maybe not dangerous, just make themselves out to look like t#@ts in an arena populated by experts !!
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
F-22 Funding and F-15 Performance
Team,
Although I have the deepest respect for the performance of our Indian Air Force Flanker bretheren, I thought it was too much of a co-incidence that they should be able to beat some very experienced F-15 mates at a time when the F-22 funding was so publicly in question.
Isn't it just too symmetrical that it should happen that way against the only viable non-western threat aircraft!
As to the Eurofighter performance, I agree with JN. It was designed to do this. I remember flying Joust simulations years and years ago, and we schwacked the F-15 every time!
I'd love to see an EF come up against an F-22! Now that would be fun.
Jim
Although I have the deepest respect for the performance of our Indian Air Force Flanker bretheren, I thought it was too much of a co-incidence that they should be able to beat some very experienced F-15 mates at a time when the F-22 funding was so publicly in question.
Isn't it just too symmetrical that it should happen that way against the only viable non-western threat aircraft!
As to the Eurofighter performance, I agree with JN. It was designed to do this. I remember flying Joust simulations years and years ago, and we schwacked the F-15 every time!
I'd love to see an EF come up against an F-22! Now that would be fun.
Jim
Of course you can't extrapolate anything from the result of one chance encounter - though had the F-15's claimed victory you can be sure that Typhoon's knockers would be using it as evidence of something.....
Of course it proves nothing and doesn't even provide a reliable indicator.
But it's surely not too difficult to give some credit for the fact that a pilot on his 12 hour SIPT conversion to a brand new type (and I believe it was a pilot with very little A-A experience), which was itself at a very early clearance, had the necessary SA to avoid being bounced and then to turn the tables on his attackers. The 48th FW were impressed by his achievement!
Of course it proves nothing and doesn't even provide a reliable indicator.
But it's surely not too difficult to give some credit for the fact that a pilot on his 12 hour SIPT conversion to a brand new type (and I believe it was a pilot with very little A-A experience), which was itself at a very early clearance, had the necessary SA to avoid being bounced and then to turn the tables on his attackers. The 48th FW were impressed by his achievement!
TAC Int Bloke
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 975
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jacko's a respected aviation journalist - have a look at his past posts
(can't believe I put 'journalist' and 'respected' in same sentence - exception that proves the rule?)
(can't believe I put 'journalist' and 'respected' in same sentence - exception that proves the rule?)
Partz,
As a new boy, that's an entirely valid and understandable question, especially since BAE Systems were pretty tight lipped about the incident, and so were 17.
Broadly speaking, I am a full time defence/aviation journo, and I do try to keep my finger on the pulse of major programmes - especially UK ones. I'm lucky enough to be able to speak to people at 'all levels' from Erk to CAS himself, and from BAE assembly overall wearers to EF GmbH's CEO. My access to overseas programmes is less, of course, but is still pretty wide. That's just as well, since I have only enough expertise to be able to regurgitate what people tell me - and I prefer to get expert folk to interpret what I hear rather than interpreting it myself.
I'm therefore disappointed that you should judge what I say as seeming 'suspect to you'. When you leave your own profile quite so vague, however, I'm not sure how qualified you are to judge!
If you're referring to my assertion that the engagement was during someone's SIPT, then it's easy - at the time of this incident that's all that was happening on Case White, and that's also what I was told at the time. That it was a particular pilot is an inference I drew from what a Case White bloke told me - it was a small pool of blokes then, and their names and flying backgrounds were made widely available. I hope I caveated my belief that it was someone with limited A-A experience adequately.
If you're referring to my assertion that the 48th weren't "Not trying" and were "impressed" - that's equally easy to explain - it's exactly what a 48th FW pilot told me after the event.
As to Singapore, I've written about the evaluation, and I know that I gained more 'snippets' from French and Yank people than I had from BAE, EF GmbH, Eurojet and RAF folk at the time, though once the French released the fact that Typhoon had been eliminated, many of the things I had been told by my original sources were confirmed by new ones, though both EF GmbH and BAE's PR folk remain tight lipped about Singapore.
As a new boy, that's an entirely valid and understandable question, especially since BAE Systems were pretty tight lipped about the incident, and so were 17.
Broadly speaking, I am a full time defence/aviation journo, and I do try to keep my finger on the pulse of major programmes - especially UK ones. I'm lucky enough to be able to speak to people at 'all levels' from Erk to CAS himself, and from BAE assembly overall wearers to EF GmbH's CEO. My access to overseas programmes is less, of course, but is still pretty wide. That's just as well, since I have only enough expertise to be able to regurgitate what people tell me - and I prefer to get expert folk to interpret what I hear rather than interpreting it myself.
I'm therefore disappointed that you should judge what I say as seeming 'suspect to you'. When you leave your own profile quite so vague, however, I'm not sure how qualified you are to judge!
If you're referring to my assertion that the engagement was during someone's SIPT, then it's easy - at the time of this incident that's all that was happening on Case White, and that's also what I was told at the time. That it was a particular pilot is an inference I drew from what a Case White bloke told me - it was a small pool of blokes then, and their names and flying backgrounds were made widely available. I hope I caveated my belief that it was someone with limited A-A experience adequately.
If you're referring to my assertion that the 48th weren't "Not trying" and were "impressed" - that's equally easy to explain - it's exactly what a 48th FW pilot told me after the event.
As to Singapore, I've written about the evaluation, and I know that I gained more 'snippets' from French and Yank people than I had from BAE, EF GmbH, Eurojet and RAF folk at the time, though once the French released the fact that Typhoon had been eliminated, many of the things I had been told by my original sources were confirmed by new ones, though both EF GmbH and BAE's PR folk remain tight lipped about Singapore.
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: oz
Posts: 127
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well gee, excuse me..... a 35 year old a/c design gets beaten by a 10 -12 year old design...... Given the advances made in engineering, engines, electronics, even aerodynamics, I'd be pretty pissed off if the F-15's got even a sniff. In any case, so far the F-15 does the business. We're yet to see if the Typhoon does.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Scotland
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Chaps, there has been quite a bit of drivel posted on this topic. I`m sure we all have stories of ac being shot down in training by ac deemed inferior. This comes down to the man-machine link, pure bad luck or a complete cock up. As an F3 mate I have seen guns footage on F15s and Mig29s however in return have had bad days vs muds. When EFA(Spitfire) eventually comes into service no doubt it will be superb however bad luck and cock ups will still occur, that is the point of training flying. If it was easy anyone could do it.
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: lancs
Posts: 6
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
OK. To put a line under this, it was no big deal - a couple of IPs in the Lakes with a bit of unbriefed afil (can't remember what the TI 4/84 codes were). Nobody was trying to score points, but the PR got a tad out of hand. Sorry to kill a good story !
"The F-15E has a working gun, the Typhoon has..."
A working gun! The Italians have just finished the firings.
Now whether the RAF will ever use and support that working gun, or simply use it as expensive ballast is an interesting question.....
As Partz could tell you, I suspect.....
A working gun! The Italians have just finished the firings.
Now whether the RAF will ever use and support that working gun, or simply use it as expensive ballast is an interesting question.....
As Partz could tell you, I suspect.....
"simply use it as expensive ballast is an interesting question....."
Deja vu all over again. I wonder if anyone used these words about the F4 and loading a gun on it as well. Hope it will have a strong centerline station for the mod in 2020.
Deja vu all over again. I wonder if anyone used these words about the F4 and loading a gun on it as well. Hope it will have a strong centerline station for the mod in 2020.
Westy,
Typhoon has an internal cannon installation. As a last minute cost-saving measure the RAF decided that it didn't want or need the weapon.
Its decision was so last minute that the aircraft are still being delivered with an operable cannon fitted, but the weapon will not be supported in service, will not be serviced (except insofar as is necessary for flight safety) and ammunition, etc. will not be procured.
Removing the weapon altogether would have required the design and clearance of a suitable piece of ballast, and would have impacted on timescales that are already 'stretched'. The weapon may be designed out of Tranche 3 Typhoons for the RAF, but is already part of Tranche 2, I believe.
The other partner nations (and the export customer) are being less parsimonious, and a service gun firing clearance (the manufacturers now have one) is just around the corner.
Typhoon has an internal cannon installation. As a last minute cost-saving measure the RAF decided that it didn't want or need the weapon.
Its decision was so last minute that the aircraft are still being delivered with an operable cannon fitted, but the weapon will not be supported in service, will not be serviced (except insofar as is necessary for flight safety) and ammunition, etc. will not be procured.
Removing the weapon altogether would have required the design and clearance of a suitable piece of ballast, and would have impacted on timescales that are already 'stretched'. The weapon may be designed out of Tranche 3 Typhoons for the RAF, but is already part of Tranche 2, I believe.
The other partner nations (and the export customer) are being less parsimonious, and a service gun firing clearance (the manufacturers now have one) is just around the corner.
I do not think the word "cheap" describes that mindset.....I thought we had taught ourselves the fallacy of having a fighter with no gun! Anyone care to harken back to the F-4 Phantom, an all missle fighter...then a fighter with an external gun pod....then finally a fighter with missles and a gun.
Seems like lunacy to now have a gun...but not buy bullets for the damn thing.....course...if one keeps it at home in the hangar then there is no need for either gun nor bullets....that space can be used for carting around your golf clubs and mess dress for those flying holidays.
Seems like lunacy to now have a gun...but not buy bullets for the damn thing.....course...if one keeps it at home in the hangar then there is no need for either gun nor bullets....that space can be used for carting around your golf clubs and mess dress for those flying holidays.
Jacko,
I thought someone fairly senior (I forget who, may have been CAS) told the Commons Select Committee that the plan was not to support the gun in peacetime (i.e. no shooting at a banner, etc, etc), but that it would be brought on line (very quickly) if the RAF found itself going to war?
I thought someone fairly senior (I forget who, may have been CAS) told the Commons Select Committee that the plan was not to support the gun in peacetime (i.e. no shooting at a banner, etc, etc), but that it would be brought on line (very quickly) if the RAF found itself going to war?
"Typhoon has an internal cannon installation. As a last minute cost-saving measure the RAF decided that it didn't want or need the weapon"
Exactly my point. I wonder if the RAF will later come to regret that decision or will they be able to support it it a later time?
I can see the first conflict the plane returns from, fresh out of missiles. Down below an enemy helo. I hope they can put an external tank if carried through the rotor arc.
Exactly my point. I wonder if the RAF will later come to regret that decision or will they be able to support it it a later time?
I can see the first conflict the plane returns from, fresh out of missiles. Down below an enemy helo. I hope they can put an external tank if carried through the rotor arc.