Armed Forces overstretched
Gentleman Aviator
you are assuming that everyone on RWTS is a pilot....
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PrOOne,
there may only be 4.6% OOA at a time but my trade is only 81% manned at the best of times excluding any OOA tasks. At a briefing this week we were informed by our SO1 trade sponser that difficulties in recruitment and retention mean that by 2008 there will be insufficient personnel to promote and that the situation is now regarded as "Dire"
there may only be 4.6% OOA at a time but my trade is only 81% manned at the best of times excluding any OOA tasks. At a briefing this week we were informed by our SO1 trade sponser that difficulties in recruitment and retention mean that by 2008 there will be insufficient personnel to promote and that the situation is now regarded as "Dire"
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Overstretch
Have caught up with this thread rather late, having been on some post OOA leave (nice if you can get it!).
I find many of the comments (particulary Mr Vecvec's; I'm unable to decide if you're one of those high up, a journalist, or a junior who feels like 'stirring it up') quite worrying, particularly as I'm hoping to carry on making a career out of this mess...
Oh dear...time to think about resettlement? Either that, or with the numbers that will PVR in disgust at this 'news' I might end up getting to be the youngest W.O. commanding the other 10 people left in the mob!
Exactly where can we lose that many people from though? We got rid of loads of MT drivers, and now fellow techies are getting sent to Iraq to do driving! Surely this covers up the overstretch to a degree when we send people away to do a task that is secondary to their main role?
I can't remember who said it (read it in a book a long time ago, but it's stuck in my head) but I think it may have been Wellington(?), but here's the paraphrase anyway:
"When a British soldier complains, he's happy. It's when he goes quiet that you have to start worrying"
Take a look in the crewroom next time you're at work - there's a lot of brooding going on...
I find many of the comments (particulary Mr Vecvec's; I'm unable to decide if you're one of those high up, a journalist, or a junior who feels like 'stirring it up') quite worrying, particularly as I'm hoping to carry on making a career out of this mess...
At least I wasn't hearing things or falling for some jolly wheeze to wind old Vim up...I'd heard 34k and 6 main camps. Would'nt like to be a techie with career aspirations....
Exactly where can we lose that many people from though? We got rid of loads of MT drivers, and now fellow techies are getting sent to Iraq to do driving! Surely this covers up the overstretch to a degree when we send people away to do a task that is secondary to their main role?
I can't remember who said it (read it in a book a long time ago, but it's stuck in my head) but I think it may have been Wellington(?), but here's the paraphrase anyway:
"When a British soldier complains, he's happy. It's when he goes quiet that you have to start worrying"
Take a look in the crewroom next time you're at work - there's a lot of brooding going on...
TAC Int Bloke
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I briefed a bunch of guys going sausage-side this week and was gob-smacked to discover techies being used as MT - mind you the guy I spoke to seemed quite happy - said now he's got his HGV he'll be off soon!
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Same down here in Kernow....we have RAF techies working on RN aircraft because the RAF can't employ them. It would appear that the techies appeared on the scene to early for the typhoon...BUT the point is that the RAF cannot be overstretched if they cannot employ their engineers and have to farm them out to keep them busy.
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prOOne,
Oh how I wish it were 4% in our neck of the woods
We undertake 2 month deployments and have, at any one time, 20% of our operational crews in one theatre alone. So, 20% x 6 (i.e. 12 months divided by 2 month deployments) means we have 120% of our operational crews in just one theatre every year - i.e. crews spend 4 months in that one theatre out of every 12 months! Add in the other theatres of ops and other 'away from home' tasks/training and you can see that the figure of 4% is simply laughed at by many.
Stop towing the party line and open your eyes to what is really happening.
As for VecVec, well...
Should that really read...
I have been around for quite some time (not as long as some here, but a s#!t load longer than many) and have watched our Lords and Masters go from being leaders of men to yes men. It seems that far too many people these days are out for themselves and would say whatever it takes to get their promotion and Knighthoods.
MadMark!!!
Oh how I wish it were 4% in our neck of the woods
We undertake 2 month deployments and have, at any one time, 20% of our operational crews in one theatre alone. So, 20% x 6 (i.e. 12 months divided by 2 month deployments) means we have 120% of our operational crews in just one theatre every year - i.e. crews spend 4 months in that one theatre out of every 12 months! Add in the other theatres of ops and other 'away from home' tasks/training and you can see that the figure of 4% is simply laughed at by many.
Stop towing the party line and open your eyes to what is really happening.
As for VecVec, well...
98% of Force Commanders have NO critical weaknesses.
98% of Force Commanders have NO critical weaknesses that they would admit to in case it makes their leadership qualities look poor.
MadMark!!!
VecVec,
You are talking complete and utter B******s. You need to have a word with some of the people who work in Fleet to realise that the RN is skint and overstretched. If things are so rosy then why has the RN withdrawn from Stans for the first time since NATO was born? Because the RN does not have the ship's or personnel. Why are their not enough escorts to meet the RNs commitments. Why are ship's having their Port visits chopped, because there is no money to pay the harbour fees.
Whilst this may not be entirely the HMGs fault, RAB has a big hand to play here. The RNs future is mortgaged on the CVF, JSF and your little bird. In the meantime everything else is sold to the pawnbrokers.
You are talking complete and utter B******s. You need to have a word with some of the people who work in Fleet to realise that the RN is skint and overstretched. If things are so rosy then why has the RN withdrawn from Stans for the first time since NATO was born? Because the RN does not have the ship's or personnel. Why are their not enough escorts to meet the RNs commitments. Why are ship's having their Port visits chopped, because there is no money to pay the harbour fees.
Whilst this may not be entirely the HMGs fault, RAB has a big hand to play here. The RNs future is mortgaged on the CVF, JSF and your little bird. In the meantime everything else is sold to the pawnbrokers.
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BUT the point is that the RAF cannot be overstretched if they cannot employ their engineers and have to farm them out to keep them busy.
Inter Arma Enim Silentius Lex Legis
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and we have to rely on COS and his collegues to make sure that the PM and his 'gang' are fully aware of what this means. How many of us are confident that this will happen (i.e Blair will listen and act)?
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There is NO WAY that the COS or any of his underlings are going to make TB and GB aware of anything. To do so would be to directly criticise and challenge the defence policies of HMG.
This Government has all the yes it men it needs in strategic positions of power.
and we have to rely on COS and his collegues to make sure that the PM and his 'gang' are fully aware of what this means. How many of us are confident that this will happen (i.e Blair will listen and act)?
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There is NO WAY that the COS or any of his underlings are going to make TB and GB aware of anything. To do so would be to directly criticise and challenge the defence policies of HMG.
This Government has all the yes it men it needs in strategic positions of power.
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There is NO WAY that the COS or any of his underlings are going to make TB and GB aware of anything. To do so would be to directly criticise and challenge the defence policies of HMG.
This Government has all the yes it men it needs in strategic positions of power.
This Government has all the yes it men it needs in strategic positions of power.
Alanbrooke kept Churchill firmly in place during a national struggle for survival when strong leadership was a prerequisite for success. So what do our seniors and politicans lack in terms of moral courage and judgement in the relatively untroubled times of today?
It is a sad state of affairs when men and women in uniform rely on the press and the opposition (in that order) to represent their views.
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Just been talking to a mate of mine up at Lossie about this thread. She says that Lossie is established for 22 controllers but 2 posts (9%) are gapped under FMDL. In the next 2 months a further 3 will be OOA at the same time, a total shorage of 22%. The Sqn Adj admits that every leave slot is full but collectively the Sqn will lose 380 days of leave throughout this leave year. If that's not undermanning/overstretch I'm not sure what is!
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VVHA,
There you go again. Do you really expect anyone to take your points seriously when you clearly don't understand even the slightest bit of what you're waffling on about?
Yes the RAF techies are employed with the RN (and they're doing very well too). And yes it's because Typhoon is delayed.
What you've completely failed to explain/acknowledge (probably because you haven't a clue) is that they're almost all directly out of training and not yet experienced enough to be let loose on front line sqns that are currently undermanned, with only just enough supervisors/managers to get the job done safely. There simply isn't enough capacity to take on the extra training burden for all of these chaps on non-Typhoon sqns. You also fail to mention that the RN were more than happy to take on our chaps because of serious manning shortfalls at Cu.
Just because your tiny perspective on the world appears rosy, don't assume that the rest is the same.
There you go again. Do you really expect anyone to take your points seriously when you clearly don't understand even the slightest bit of what you're waffling on about?
Yes the RAF techies are employed with the RN (and they're doing very well too). And yes it's because Typhoon is delayed.
What you've completely failed to explain/acknowledge (probably because you haven't a clue) is that they're almost all directly out of training and not yet experienced enough to be let loose on front line sqns that are currently undermanned, with only just enough supervisors/managers to get the job done safely. There simply isn't enough capacity to take on the extra training burden for all of these chaps on non-Typhoon sqns. You also fail to mention that the RN were more than happy to take on our chaps because of serious manning shortfalls at Cu.
Just because your tiny perspective on the world appears rosy, don't assume that the rest is the same.
Fat Albert
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vecvechookattack
On your next visit to planet earth I suggest that you discuss your ludicrous "lack of overstretch" theory at somewhere like RAF Lyneham
However you will need your tin hat and body armour.
I think you would be in for a rude awakening!!
On your next visit to planet earth I suggest that you discuss your ludicrous "lack of overstretch" theory at somewhere like RAF Lyneham
However you will need your tin hat and body armour.
I think you would be in for a rude awakening!!
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Vecvechookattack,
Regarding your theory that the RAF are so inept that they cannot find employment for their personnel and have to "farm them out" to other Services.
Firstly, would you kindly explain how you managed to absorb them (let alone train them) without severe disruption to your own training programme for Junior Personnel?
Secondly, would you explain the implications of this vast expansion of your First Line Engineering Staff? To have foisted on you this vast amount of barely trained RAF Personnel when you were (apparently)fully up to strength with fully trained RN Personnel must have come as a severe shock. Are we allowed to know what protests you made to Higher Authority regarding this dilution of your Operational Efficiency?
Finally, what are you going to do when they return to the RAF?
Regarding your theory that the RAF are so inept that they cannot find employment for their personnel and have to "farm them out" to other Services.
Firstly, would you kindly explain how you managed to absorb them (let alone train them) without severe disruption to your own training programme for Junior Personnel?
Secondly, would you explain the implications of this vast expansion of your First Line Engineering Staff? To have foisted on you this vast amount of barely trained RAF Personnel when you were (apparently)fully up to strength with fully trained RN Personnel must have come as a severe shock. Are we allowed to know what protests you made to Higher Authority regarding this dilution of your Operational Efficiency?
Finally, what are you going to do when they return to the RAF?
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OK. I'll try and answer some of the points made. Firstly, I didn't train them. The engineering training school trained them. They just sat at the back of the class with the rest of the guys.
Secondly. The RAF engineers are not going front line (That really wouldn't be fair would it - they didn't join for that). They just help out on the shop floor conducitng 2nd and 3rd line servicing.
the point reference "What you've completely failed to explain/acknowledge (probably because you haven't a clue) is that they're almost all directly out of training and not yet experienced enough to be let loose on front line sqns ".. well hang on. Are you saying that the routine now is that the Engineers do their basic training and then they join a Navy Base until they have enough experience to rejoin the RAF?
No, thats not the answer. The truth is that the RAF recruited far too many engineers (expecting Typhoon to be on line) and now they can't employ them (cos youv'e got too many). If you are telling me that the RAF are short of engineers they why don't you take them back.
Secondly. The RAF engineers are not going front line (That really wouldn't be fair would it - they didn't join for that). They just help out on the shop floor conducitng 2nd and 3rd line servicing.
the point reference "What you've completely failed to explain/acknowledge (probably because you haven't a clue) is that they're almost all directly out of training and not yet experienced enough to be let loose on front line sqns ".. well hang on. Are you saying that the routine now is that the Engineers do their basic training and then they join a Navy Base until they have enough experience to rejoin the RAF?
No, thats not the answer. The truth is that the RAF recruited far too many engineers (expecting Typhoon to be on line) and now they can't employ them (cos youv'e got too many). If you are telling me that the RAF are short of engineers they why don't you take them back.
Maybe he should be accordingly ignored.