Greatest Flying Ever?

[metalthrower]

Having decided a few days ago (6 Jun actually) that I really didn't know a lot about the Second World War. I decided to pack my bags and toodle off to France for a quick weekend stop. I flashed around a couple of the battlefileds and famous sites. On reaching Pegasus Bridge and now having read the facts I am astonished at the feat of skill displayed to land the gliders within 50m of the target at night in poor weather, unpowered and using only compass and stopwatch for aids thus allowing the bridge to be captured in 10 or so minutes. It's described by many as the greatest feat of flying of WWII but is it? Do you think it can it be considered as 'better' than the skill shown by 617 Sqn for example during their most 'famous hour?

PS This is not the subject of my ICSC Essay just looking for some good ole debate!

[Onan the Clumsy]

There was one that might qualify. It happened the day before.

With the combination of tide and moon, June 5th and 6th offered the best chance of the month for the landing. If it didn't happen then, it possibly would have been delayed until July etc.

The weather on the 5th was not conducive to a seaborne invasion, but some met chap still had to make the call. In any event, you can't all set off at once, so a small flotilla was launched on the 5th. As the minutes ticked by, they finally had to face it that the invasion would have to be delayed until the 6th.

Apparently the flotilla was maintaining radio silence - and I have to say I don't understand why they couldn't have listened and not replied, but for some reason, they could not call them back by radio. In any event, if they were to continue, they would be alone, and apart from meeting certain death, they would also give away the element of surprise.

So it fell onto the shoulders of someone who's name I don't know to search the channel for the flotilla, and having found it (a feat in itself I would have thought) pass over the lead ship and drop a message in a tin can.

Fortunately his aim was good and the message was received and acted upon and the rest is history.

I'll try and see if I can get any more details, but to me it's only one part of one of the most fascinating stories of history. There were so many little things like that, the BIGOT documents, the Mulberry crossword, the depth of the FUSAG deception, the Hobart funnies that didn't quite work, the story of the commandoes on the beach taking sand and profile samples when the sentry walked past, the request for holiday snaps to help build a composite picture of the landing place, Von Runstead's wife's birthday falling on the 5th (or was it Rommel's wife?), the fact that when the invasion took place, the German high command were in the middle of an exersize to simulate an allied landing.

Sorry, I went on, but to me that has to be one of the best pieces of flying.

[Skylark4]

Some years ago I happened upon Pegasus bridge by accident and, fortunately, recognised it having recently read several accounts of the operation. I found it a most moving experience to stand on the end of that bridge, it was the original one then, only a few months before they replaced it, and be able to "see" exactly where those gliders landed.
All in all, an incredible operation.
Better than 617? Maybe, maybe not, just a different manifestation of extreme bravery.

Mike W

[SASless]

There were so many "great" acts by "small" people prior to, during, and after the invasion it is hard to point to just one or even a hundred acts that could be "the" feat of daring or ability that made the invasion a success.

British paras at the Pegasus Bridge, the American Rangers at Point du Hoc, the infantry in the first wave at Omaha Beach....the destroyer men that went right up on the beach delivering direct naval gunfire....how does one single out the one feat above so many others.

Our Fathers and Grand Fathers that participated in that grand adventure all are heroes in my book. They left us a great legacy to live up to.

[Tourist]

One word
Taranto.
Nothing like it before, and only copied once, Pearl Harbour

[MOSTAFA]

"Soldiers First"

[Proman]

We mustn't forget that the greatest heroes are often unsung.

As an example I'd cite the recce pilots who went over 'the day after' to take pictures of bomb damage. The enemy surely knew they'd be along, and were ready and waiting and in full daylight, at limits of range for the small a/c. Flying solo into that must have required extreme bravery, and accompanying skill to get into the right place over the target to get the pictures needed.

I recall reading Constance Bbabbington Smith's (sorry about spelling if wrong) book. She was the doyen of phot interpreters and for example found the Peenemunde rockets. She makes reference to deliberately not forming relationships with the pilots as she knew most were short lived.

And this applies to both/all sides.

[ORAC]

How about the attack on Amiens prison in Feb ´44? Members of the French Resistance were being held there, awaiting execution. 18 Mosquitos were tasked to blow holes in the walls to allow them to escape. They also had to destroy the guard sleeping quarters and dining hall within the compound. The attack height was about 60 feet. Operation Jericho

[Chalkstripe]

Pegasus Bridge

I went to Pegasus Bridge last year - one week before the D-Day anniversary. They have an outstanding museum there where I spent most of the afternoon. Above the display cases are original letters written by the men that participated in the attack, often followed by a letter that started "Dear Mrs Smith, it is with regeret that...". Mrs CS was amazed to see that my ususal stoicism (sic), had completely fled - and I had to take a breather outside.

Along with the massed glider landings that followed, these extraordinary men (light infantry) held the local ridge/hills against everything that was thrown at them from the German Divisions to the east as the allies consolidated the beaches. This was then used as a hub as the allies moved around them and advanced west. Exceptional men in extraordinary times.

However I digress - if you should ever be in that area of France it is a fascinating place to visit

[Onan the Clumsy]

Operation Jericho. I notice one thing about those photographs, If you look at this one, the text says: "...As shown by the dark wall bricks that have been strewn across the white snow, two holes have been blown in the outer wall..."




Later they show this one with they text: "Photo taken the day after the raid, shows one hole in the north wall."



I wonder if it snowed again that night.


One thing that I find interesting is the codename used for this operation. My understanding is that Allied codenames rarely bore any connection to the events at hand, whereas German codenames, often had some relationship, like the rearward pointing airborn radar that was named (Freya?) after a god who could see behind her. I heard there were several Wagnerian references like this that gave Allied forces important hints about what was being hidden by the codename.

Anyone care to comment?

[SASless]

Chalk,

I had a similar experience at a small little known place called Bastogne one December several years ago. My Mom's brother was Missing In Action for 13 days after his unit of Tank Destoyers was overrun during the first action. His account of the tank fight and expending all of the unit's ammunition before being forced to E&E on foot was simply amazing. He told me the story in full exactly once...it was something he just did not say much about. He and five of his mates found their way to Bastogne through German lines and then got to participate in that fight.

Walking about the place...and visiting the museum was quite an experience....made doubly so by the snow and cold weather very similar to when the fight was going on. The monument that overlooks the town with the historical markings explaining the battle is very much worth seeing.

We still have the telegram informing my Grandma of her son's becoming Missing-in-Action.....really brings home the costs of war.

[Biggles Flies Undone]

I did the Pegasus Bridge visit several years ago and was very touched by the sheer history of the place. I think the memorial garden with individual monuments to mark the landing spots is very well done. Also had a fascinating chat to the lady that ran the cafe (the first building in France to be liberated) - she was just a small girl at the time of the battle but could recall it with absolute clarity and in perfect English. Highly recommended.

For those with an interest in Bastogne, I cannot recommend 'Band of Brothers' too highly - in my opinion the best series ever about the war. My Dad was there in the Ardennes fighting alongside the Americans and he says that they got the weather and all the events absolutely right.

As for the flying, my vote has to go with 617.

[airborne_artist]

Minor thread creep, but on the evg of June 6th (a few days ago) I had a phone call from an 81 y/o who was in 501 Para Inf (part of 101st) when they jumped into the Cherbourg peninsula.

For an ex-airborne like me that was just superb. He's thriving in Basingstoke, having married a local girl - celebrate their 60th wedding anniversary in August.

I think my vote for greatest flying would have the Tempsford-based Lysander pilots pretty high on the list. Different (and iffy) LZ every night, no armaments, "welcoming party" ...

[Thud_and_Blunder]

There was another top bit of flying right at the beginning of the war in W Europe - by the side that eventually came 2nd. Visit Eben Emael one day and see the area that 10 gliders landed upon to disgorge their 78 troops. Brilliant tactics and astonishing flying - one crew that had to force land in Germany after their tow-rope broke tabbed back to the airfield, got into another aircraft and still made it to the target in time to help hold back the Belgique counter-attack on one of the bridges nearby. Credit where its due - as to whether it's "better" flying than any other, that's a can of worms I'm not opening.

[Flatus Veteranus]

I will quote a passage from "the Right of the Line" (The RAF in the European War 1939-45) by John Terraine, Chapter 11 "Norway 1940".

"The air cover provided by the two fighter squadrons (No 263, Gladiators, and No 46, Hurricanes) was undoubtedly a major factor in this success (the Allied capture of Narvik) but the success itself was hollow: the Allies were already planning the complete evacuation of Norway. This was completed on June 8, which was the day of final tragedy. No 263's Gladiators (reduced to 8) had already been flown on to the aircraft-carrier Glorious. About midnight on June 7, despite the fact that they had never done a deck landing (it was, in fact, considered impossible for aircraft such as Hurricanes) and despite a day of almost continuous combat flying, the 10 pilots of No 46 took off to do the same. One by one they came low over the carrier, touched down, and braked to a heart-stopping halt. Against all chances and all predictions, here were the Hurricanes safe on deck, ten priceless machines saved for the Battle of Britain and an achievement that made the dead-beat pilots forget the weariness."

And I do not think the Hurricanes had hooks to take the wires! It takes my vote for superb flying by a whole squadron. A pity the ship was sunk a bit later and all were lost.

[Onan the Clumsy]

What about Faith, Hope and Charity and the defence of Malta?


(painting by Stan Stokes)


To say Malta's air defences were small at the beginning of WWII would be an under statement.

The total air power on Malta consisted of 4 Gloster Gladiator biplanes. These were packed in crates & left at Kalafrana flying boat base by HMS Glorious which left to join the Norwegian campaign. In fact, there were enough parts to make up 8 biplanes but the Navy wanted 4 back to join the aircraft carrier HMS Eagle.

The remaining 4 were assembled, 3 were to be used on operations with the reamaining 1 kept in reserve.

After assembling the biplanes the Royal Navy decided on having them back for work in Alexandria, so they were taken apart for re-packing.

Following talks between Air Commodore Maynard & the Royal Navy it was decided to leave the biplanes on Malta & they were re-assembled.

Their first use in combat came at 0649 on the 11th of June 1940 when 10 Italian Savoia Marchetti 79 bombers bombed Grand Harbour. No aircraft were shot down in this encounter.

On the 7th raid of the day the Gladiator's drew blood by shooting down a Macchi 200 fighter. Although the biplanes were slower than the Italian fighters they were more manouverable.

Flying Officer John Waters nicknamed the aircraft 'Faith, Hope & Charity'.

Three bladed propellers were fitted in place of the usual two to give the biplanes a faster rate of climb. Other parts were later used from a Swordfish.

Superchargers were left on maximum during the climb after take off (which was against orders) so they could gain height faster. This put extra strain on the engines & 2 of them blew pistons. Maintenance crews converted Blenheim bomber engines to fit the Gladiators.

Faith, Hope & Charity fought for 17 days without relief & played a fundamental role in fooling the Italian intelligence into thinking Malta had a substantial fighter defence.

[STANDTO]

Maverick and Ice Man up agaist all those Migs, or how about Luke Skywalker on the last run down the trench of the death star?

Seriously though, unpatriotic though it may sound, some of the most inspiring tales I have read is those of the Argentinian A4 pilots during the 1982 war. The chap who was shot up in Falkland Sound, had his tanks breached, and the was towed all the way back to the land of corned beef by a C130 tanker.

pretty remarkable stuff

[Time Flies]

Great topic for a thread metalthrower.

I share the same view as Proman when he wrote

We mustn't forget that the greatest heroes are often unsung.

This is often the case and I'm quite sure there is an awful amount that goes on which we don't hear about.

Raising a glass now to all demonstrations of the "Greatest Flying Ever", known or otherwise.

TF

[ShyTorque]

There have of course been a few more modern feats of bravery; some stories not yet fully told.

Such as that exhibited by the crew of a Chinook sent to rescue "some people" from the middle of Baghdad, during an air raid at the height of hostilities, in GW 1.

"Some people" were delayed and were unlikely to make it out by other means, so the crew took a vote and decided to wait - and parked up with just the APU running, for twenty minutes on a playing field in the middle of it all.

Big balls, guys.

[MightyGem]

Better than 617?

...or any of the others already quoted. possibly, possibly not. There's one thing to remember though, all the other examples have engines. They can manouver, reposition or go round again for another go.

Gliders can't do that. They have to get it right first time. This time they did, not just one of them but all of them. It's number one for me.