Greatest Flying Ever?
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quote:
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Gliders can't do that. They have to get it right first time.
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This to me is what makes it so special. It was a one shot option...fantastic. But hey I'm not going to split hairs - the incidences quoted above all deserve their place in history.
Keep 'em coming!!
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Gliders can't do that. They have to get it right first time.
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This to me is what makes it so special. It was a one shot option...fantastic. But hey I'm not going to split hairs - the incidences quoted above all deserve their place in history.
Keep 'em coming!!
Onan,
Later on in the Vietnam war....an F-4 pushed another F-4 to a safe eject area....pushee lowered his arresting hook...other aircraft placed his front lower edge of the windscreen at the base of the hook....and off they went.
Later on in the Vietnam war....an F-4 pushed another F-4 to a safe eject area....pushee lowered his arresting hook...other aircraft placed his front lower edge of the windscreen at the base of the hook....and off they went.
That's "Pardo's Push", that is.
But impressive as that feat and others may be, I'm with MightyGem: the GPR on D-Day at Pegasus Bridge does it for me. It's not just how close they got to the objective, it's the nature of the landing site - canal on one side, marshy pond on the other, and three aircraft fitting into that tiny space.
But impressive as that feat and others may be, I'm with MightyGem: the GPR on D-Day at Pegasus Bridge does it for me. It's not just how close they got to the objective, it's the nature of the landing site - canal on one side, marshy pond on the other, and three aircraft fitting into that tiny space.
Last edited by BossEyed; 15th Jun 2005 at 22:26.
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While I'm not sure I would like to make the final choice in terms of greatest combat flying feat ever, I will say that the gliders at Pegasus Bridge episode actually came well recommended.
The 'greatest flying feat of the entire second world war' quote is actually from Air Chief Marshal Sir Trafford Leigh-Mallory who was commanding the Allied Air Forces on D-Day. Praise indeed for a 24 year-old Army NCO pilot from a Royal Air Force 4 -star!
As an aside, the pilot of the lead glider made the trip at night, on stop watch and compass only, at a weight he had never flown his aircraft before, using a parachute arrestor system he had never used before and point landed the aircraft to within single feet in order to exactly cross a barbed wire entanglement and allow troops to cross it and assault the bridge. When the aircraft came to its final halt, he and his co were thrown forward out of the cockpit into the ground and in doing so became the first allied serviceman to touch on French soil as part of the invasion force.
Good work by SSgt Jim Wallwork DFM Glider Pilot Regiment who I believe is still alive and lives somewhere near Vancouver.
One of many heroes of that generation.
The 'greatest flying feat of the entire second world war' quote is actually from Air Chief Marshal Sir Trafford Leigh-Mallory who was commanding the Allied Air Forces on D-Day. Praise indeed for a 24 year-old Army NCO pilot from a Royal Air Force 4 -star!
As an aside, the pilot of the lead glider made the trip at night, on stop watch and compass only, at a weight he had never flown his aircraft before, using a parachute arrestor system he had never used before and point landed the aircraft to within single feet in order to exactly cross a barbed wire entanglement and allow troops to cross it and assault the bridge. When the aircraft came to its final halt, he and his co were thrown forward out of the cockpit into the ground and in doing so became the first allied serviceman to touch on French soil as part of the invasion force.
Good work by SSgt Jim Wallwork DFM Glider Pilot Regiment who I believe is still alive and lives somewhere near Vancouver.
One of many heroes of that generation.
....and after doing that magnificent feat of flying....picked up his weapon and fought on the ground....though I bet it took a while for his legs to support him and his hands quite shaking!
I would think one of the most remarkable feats of airmanship of WW2 was the glider assult and subsequent landing and take off by pilot Walter Gerlach, in a Fiesler Storch some 6500ft up on the rock strewn summit of the Gran Sasso to 'rescue' El Duce in 1943.
And of the Amiens prison raid by New Zealand's 487 Sqn and Australia's 484 Sqn.
Quote from Wing Commander I.S. Smith, leader of the first attacking vic of Mossie's:
We flew as low and as slowly as possible, aiming to drop our bombs right at the foot of the wall. I dropped my bombs from a height of 10 feet, pulling hard on the stick.....
And of the Amiens prison raid by New Zealand's 487 Sqn and Australia's 484 Sqn.
Quote from Wing Commander I.S. Smith, leader of the first attacking vic of Mossie's:
We flew as low and as slowly as possible, aiming to drop our bombs right at the foot of the wall. I dropped my bombs from a height of 10 feet, pulling hard on the stick.....
Fat Albert
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Its difficult to judge which rates as the greatest flying ever. During WW2 there were so many examples of exceptional skill, bravery or determination.
I don't think I could single out any one feat in particular but those that are up there are
The fighter pilots of 1940
Bomber Command 1944-45
The Pathfinders
617 Sqn
The Defence of Malta
The Market Garden Glider pilots
There are of course many others and without these brave and selfless heroes our world would be a very different place today
I don't think I could single out any one feat in particular but those that are up there are
The fighter pilots of 1940
Bomber Command 1944-45
The Pathfinders
617 Sqn
The Defence of Malta
The Market Garden Glider pilots
There are of course many others and without these brave and selfless heroes our world would be a very different place today
Gentleman Aviator
And for more on the gliders that started the thread, check this out. Very much worth a visit, so you can see how incredibly fragile they were. The gliders were not all one-way trips. There was the "snatch" take off technique (more often used on the smaller Waco glider), where you sat and waited to be "hooked" by a low flying Dak. Must have been some acceleration!
Shy Torque - I think you'll find that the "Baghdad Shutdown" was in fact pre-planned - which takes even more cojones IMHO.
Shy Torque - I think you'll find that the "Baghdad Shutdown" was in fact pre-planned - which takes even more cojones IMHO.
In early 1941, the then Deputy Chief of the Air Staff, Sir Arthur Harris, thought Army flying preposterous:
"The idea that semi-skilled, unpicked personnel (infantry corporals have, I believe, even been suggested) could with a maximum of training be entrusted with the piloting of these troop carriers is fantastic. Their (the gliders) operation is equivalent to forced landing the largest sized aircraft without engine aid - than which there is no higher test of piloting skill."
It's clear that he was subsequently proved wrong.
"The idea that semi-skilled, unpicked personnel (infantry corporals have, I believe, even been suggested) could with a maximum of training be entrusted with the piloting of these troop carriers is fantastic. Their (the gliders) operation is equivalent to forced landing the largest sized aircraft without engine aid - than which there is no higher test of piloting skill."
It's clear that he was subsequently proved wrong.
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You comment on the Market Garden pilots C130 Techie, they deserve a mention.
This is an edited extract from my brother in law's story of landing on day two.
It was written in a POW camp shortly after he was captured there.
"You should have seen the gliders lying about in the fields below belonging to those who had landed on Sunday. They were as thick as flies on an empty jam tin, it was a wonderful sight.
I did not know how we were going to manage to land as there was hardly any room left, but down we came in a steep dive until about 100 yards from the ground he straightened her out and slid down to the ground just missing the other gliders already there by inches. He could not have made a better landing. "
This is an edited extract from my brother in law's story of landing on day two.
It was written in a POW camp shortly after he was captured there.
"You should have seen the gliders lying about in the fields below belonging to those who had landed on Sunday. They were as thick as flies on an empty jam tin, it was a wonderful sight.
I did not know how we were going to manage to land as there was hardly any room left, but down we came in a steep dive until about 100 yards from the ground he straightened her out and slid down to the ground just missing the other gliders already there by inches. He could not have made a better landing. "
Market Garden
Some of those who fought on the ground around Oosterbeek and Arnhem have mentioned to me the high regard they have for the pilots and crews who flew Dakotas in their desperate efforts to re-supply them, in the face of fierce oppposition.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Flt. Lt. David Samuel Anthony Lord VC, DFC
271 Squadron, 46 Group RAF
Born on 18th October 1913, in Cork, Southern Ireland, Flight Lieutenant "Lummy" Lord was a distinguished 30 year old Dakota pilot with 271 Squadron, who flew re-supply missions to Arnhem. He had previously flown similar missions using DC3's with 31 Squadron in India, Egypt, Iraq, Libya, and Burma. In July 1943, his extensive service record was mentioned in dispatches, and he was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross.
On Tuesday 19th, while on the final approach to the drop zones and only three minutes away from them, heavy anti-aircraft fire tore into the wave of slow moving supply aircraft. Lord's plane received two hits on the starboard wing and the engine on that side burst into flames. At such a low height there was no way to extinguish such a fire, and so the only real option in such a situation would be to abandon the attempt to drop supplies and bail out before the fuel tanks exploded. However Lord refused to do so, and kept flying true and steady to make sure he dropped his supplies on target. With his aircraft clearly in dire trouble, Lord was singled out for attention by most every German anti-aircraft gun in the vicinity. He continued on his path and reached the drop zone.
After completing his run, Lord was informed by his calm and highly disciplined crew (three RAF personnel and four Army dispatchers) that two canisters of supplies still remained. Lord turned the aircraft around for a second pass over the dropping zone, still under intense fire. When all the supplies were at last dropped, and the aircraft had descended to the perilously low height of only 500 feet, Lord cried to his men "Bail out! Bail out! For God's sake, bail out!", while making absolutely no effort to do so himself. A few seconds later, the starboard wing exploded and the plane crashed in flames into the ground, just north of the Reijers-Camp farm on LZ-S.
There was only one survivor, Flying Officer Harry King, who was blown out of the side door when the engine exploded. King himself landed in no man's land between the British and Germans, but he managed to find the 10th Battalion and stayed with them until eventually captured.
The sight of Lord's crippled aircraft was witnessed by troops on the ground, who were so mesmerized by this single plane that they stood up in their trenches to will it on. They were all highly moved, in some cases to tears, by this tremendous display of courage and self sacrifice on their behalf. With flames licking wildly under the fuselage, many men were pleading with the crew to jump, but they would not, and instead the dispatchers were seen to be continually throwing out more supply containers until the wing collapsed.
From the point that the engine caught fire to the moment of the crash, Flight Lieutenant Lord flew his Dakota, steadily while under very heavy anti-aircraft fire, for a total of 8 minutes. For his suicidal bravery and single-minded determination to get the supplies to those who needed it, David Lord was posthumously awarded the Victoria Cross. The citation reads:
"On 19 September 1944 at Arnhem, Holland, the British 1st Airborne Division were in desperate need of supplies. Flight Lieutenant Lord, flying a Dakota through intense enemy A.A. fire was twice hit, and had one engine burning. He managed to drop his supplies, but at the end of the run found that there were two containers remaining. Although he knew that one of his wings might collapse at any moment he nevertheless made a second run to drop the last supplies, then ordered his crew to bale out. A few seconds later the Dakota crashed in flames with its pilot."
271 Squadron, 46 Group RAF
Born on 18th October 1913, in Cork, Southern Ireland, Flight Lieutenant "Lummy" Lord was a distinguished 30 year old Dakota pilot with 271 Squadron, who flew re-supply missions to Arnhem. He had previously flown similar missions using DC3's with 31 Squadron in India, Egypt, Iraq, Libya, and Burma. In July 1943, his extensive service record was mentioned in dispatches, and he was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross.
On Tuesday 19th, while on the final approach to the drop zones and only three minutes away from them, heavy anti-aircraft fire tore into the wave of slow moving supply aircraft. Lord's plane received two hits on the starboard wing and the engine on that side burst into flames. At such a low height there was no way to extinguish such a fire, and so the only real option in such a situation would be to abandon the attempt to drop supplies and bail out before the fuel tanks exploded. However Lord refused to do so, and kept flying true and steady to make sure he dropped his supplies on target. With his aircraft clearly in dire trouble, Lord was singled out for attention by most every German anti-aircraft gun in the vicinity. He continued on his path and reached the drop zone.
After completing his run, Lord was informed by his calm and highly disciplined crew (three RAF personnel and four Army dispatchers) that two canisters of supplies still remained. Lord turned the aircraft around for a second pass over the dropping zone, still under intense fire. When all the supplies were at last dropped, and the aircraft had descended to the perilously low height of only 500 feet, Lord cried to his men "Bail out! Bail out! For God's sake, bail out!", while making absolutely no effort to do so himself. A few seconds later, the starboard wing exploded and the plane crashed in flames into the ground, just north of the Reijers-Camp farm on LZ-S.
There was only one survivor, Flying Officer Harry King, who was blown out of the side door when the engine exploded. King himself landed in no man's land between the British and Germans, but he managed to find the 10th Battalion and stayed with them until eventually captured.
The sight of Lord's crippled aircraft was witnessed by troops on the ground, who were so mesmerized by this single plane that they stood up in their trenches to will it on. They were all highly moved, in some cases to tears, by this tremendous display of courage and self sacrifice on their behalf. With flames licking wildly under the fuselage, many men were pleading with the crew to jump, but they would not, and instead the dispatchers were seen to be continually throwing out more supply containers until the wing collapsed.
From the point that the engine caught fire to the moment of the crash, Flight Lieutenant Lord flew his Dakota, steadily while under very heavy anti-aircraft fire, for a total of 8 minutes. For his suicidal bravery and single-minded determination to get the supplies to those who needed it, David Lord was posthumously awarded the Victoria Cross. The citation reads:
"On 19 September 1944 at Arnhem, Holland, the British 1st Airborne Division were in desperate need of supplies. Flight Lieutenant Lord, flying a Dakota through intense enemy A.A. fire was twice hit, and had one engine burning. He managed to drop his supplies, but at the end of the run found that there were two containers remaining. Although he knew that one of his wings might collapse at any moment he nevertheless made a second run to drop the last supplies, then ordered his crew to bale out. A few seconds later the Dakota crashed in flames with its pilot."
Thanks for that ORAC, it certainly brought a lump to my throat. Wasn't the late Jimmy Edwards injured in a crash on similar duties? IIRC, he grew the outrageous handle-bar moustache to hide his burns.
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Don't forget the Kiwis!
Flattus referred to the flight of seven Hurricanes from a frozen lake in Norway out to the carrier HMS Glorious on which they performed their first ever deck landing in a Hurricane , which was of course not equipped with any means of stopping other than brakes and the wind! Quite a feat. Glorious unfortunately ran into the two German ships Scharnhorst and Gneisenhau and was sunk by gunfire, and there were only two survivors from the RAF: the CO,Sqn Ldr Cross and Fl Lt Jameson.
Jameson was a Kiwi and a strong swimmer and saved a few seamen, but most of them died of exposure. He later became Air Commodore Jameson, having stayed on in the RAF and though borne in NZ, it seemed he was a descendant of the Jameson Whiskey family and inherited a castle in Ireland! He lived in it for a while too, before deciding it was too cold and damp and returned to New Zealand in the 1980s.
I met him a few times socially because we lived not far from each other, and though not of his generation, I knew who he was and his background, and found him a lovely and very unassuming guy who didn't think he was in any way exceptional.
He died a few years ago.
Flattus referred to the flight of seven Hurricanes from a frozen lake in Norway out to the carrier HMS Glorious on which they performed their first ever deck landing in a Hurricane , which was of course not equipped with any means of stopping other than brakes and the wind! Quite a feat. Glorious unfortunately ran into the two German ships Scharnhorst and Gneisenhau and was sunk by gunfire, and there were only two survivors from the RAF: the CO,Sqn Ldr Cross and Fl Lt Jameson.
Jameson was a Kiwi and a strong swimmer and saved a few seamen, but most of them died of exposure. He later became Air Commodore Jameson, having stayed on in the RAF and though borne in NZ, it seemed he was a descendant of the Jameson Whiskey family and inherited a castle in Ireland! He lived in it for a while too, before deciding it was too cold and damp and returned to New Zealand in the 1980s.
I met him a few times socially because we lived not far from each other, and though not of his generation, I knew who he was and his background, and found him a lovely and very unassuming guy who didn't think he was in any way exceptional.
He died a few years ago.
I'matightbastard
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What about great flying feats from the chaps on the other side?
Saburo Sakai (I think) wrote of a young pilot who he met one day. They got talking about the large aircraft the young man was flying and the subject came around to aerobatics. The pilot said he had often wondered if his aircraft, though obviously not designed for it, could fly through a loop. It was shortly afterwards that Sakai was on a mission and he saw one of the same type get hit and catch on fire. As the fire grew, he saw the nose pitch over, the speed increase and then the nose start to rise as the aircraft clawed skywards.
He realised who the pilot was and what he was trying to accomplish with what was left of his brief life.
Saburo Sakai (I think) wrote of a young pilot who he met one day. They got talking about the large aircraft the young man was flying and the subject came around to aerobatics. The pilot said he had often wondered if his aircraft, though obviously not designed for it, could fly through a loop. It was shortly afterwards that Sakai was on a mission and he saw one of the same type get hit and catch on fire. As the fire grew, he saw the nose pitch over, the speed increase and then the nose start to rise as the aircraft clawed skywards.
He realised who the pilot was and what he was trying to accomplish with what was left of his brief life.
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I seem to recall a documented incident being recalled in "Flypast" of a Lancaster doing a slow roll over the top of a B17!
The recovery of a BA 747 after losing all four engines and forward vision in a volcanic dust cloud over Indonesia.
The pilot of the Andover I was in the back of who was 0ooh so nonchalant with wheels and flaps down on the edge of thunder storm between Sydney and Nowra, when I watched the wings bending.
The recovery of a BA 747 after losing all four engines and forward vision in a volcanic dust cloud over Indonesia.
The pilot of the Andover I was in the back of who was 0ooh so nonchalant with wheels and flaps down on the edge of thunder storm between Sydney and Nowra, when I watched the wings bending.
I've just been reading a copy of BALPA's April/May "The Log" magazine (we're so up-to-date out here). Neil Marshall has written a stunning article about that strange woman, Hanna Reitsch. How sad that such a skilled individual should choose for almost all her life to swear allegiance to such a despicable regime.
Most of us probably already knew about her test-flying on the Gigant glider (unboosted controls, she was only 5' 0.5" tall...), the Fi103 piloted V1 and her early helicopter work. However, up for consideration as some of the top examples of flying-associated skill have to be:
- flying trials on Barrage Balloon Cable-Cutting, where her Do17 was so badly damaged that no-one watching thought she'd get back down.
- flying trials on Me163 Komet where, having just stalled-in because the undercarriage-trolley had failed to release and lost her nose in the ensuing crash-landing (among other injuries) she insisted on writing up the flight report before allowing herself to be stretchered off. Took her 18 months to recover to fully fit.
- the whole saga of her flight to Berlin in April 1945. Never mind the bullet-riddled 190 she and the General landed in at Gatow, how about the Fi156 trip from there to the city centre? She was in the back seat when the fella up front was hit by a round which exploded in the cockpit, almost entirely blowing off his foot. Meanwhile, all fuel tanks had been punctured by small-arms fire. Reitsch leans over the now-unconscious front-seater and lands in a tiny rubble-free area near the Brandenburg Gate.
What a waste of incredible talent, eh?
Most of us probably already knew about her test-flying on the Gigant glider (unboosted controls, she was only 5' 0.5" tall...), the Fi103 piloted V1 and her early helicopter work. However, up for consideration as some of the top examples of flying-associated skill have to be:
- flying trials on Barrage Balloon Cable-Cutting, where her Do17 was so badly damaged that no-one watching thought she'd get back down.
- flying trials on Me163 Komet where, having just stalled-in because the undercarriage-trolley had failed to release and lost her nose in the ensuing crash-landing (among other injuries) she insisted on writing up the flight report before allowing herself to be stretchered off. Took her 18 months to recover to fully fit.
- the whole saga of her flight to Berlin in April 1945. Never mind the bullet-riddled 190 she and the General landed in at Gatow, how about the Fi156 trip from there to the city centre? She was in the back seat when the fella up front was hit by a round which exploded in the cockpit, almost entirely blowing off his foot. Meanwhile, all fuel tanks had been punctured by small-arms fire. Reitsch leans over the now-unconscious front-seater and lands in a tiny rubble-free area near the Brandenburg Gate.
What a waste of incredible talent, eh?
Fat Albert
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Some excellent reading on this subject:
First Light by Geoffrey Wellum
Tail End Charlies - Bomber Command 1944-45 by John Nichol and Tony Rennell.
Both are highly recommended.
First Light by Geoffrey Wellum
Tail End Charlies - Bomber Command 1944-45 by John Nichol and Tony Rennell.
Both are highly recommended.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Onan,
Reference the choice of the name for the operation at Amiens, jut got home and was able to look it up, (And the Walls Came Tumbling Down, Jack Fishman, 1982, ISBN 0285 625195)
The name selected for the operation was originally "Renovate", but was changed to Jericho on the decision of AVM Basil Embry at the meeting when he finally authorised the attack....
Winding up the meeting, Embry sat back and said: "I am making a slight change in arangements. As so much depends on those walls tumbling down, I think, from now on, the operations code name should appropriately be - Jericho".
Reference the choice of the name for the operation at Amiens, jut got home and was able to look it up, (And the Walls Came Tumbling Down, Jack Fishman, 1982, ISBN 0285 625195)
The name selected for the operation was originally "Renovate", but was changed to Jericho on the decision of AVM Basil Embry at the meeting when he finally authorised the attack....
Winding up the meeting, Embry sat back and said: "I am making a slight change in arangements. As so much depends on those walls tumbling down, I think, from now on, the operations code name should appropriately be - Jericho".