Typhoon vs Rafale for a laugh.
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Typhoon vs Rafale for a laugh.
So you guys are the real thing he? OK show us.
Tell us which aircraft is the best design aerodynamically, as well as being the best suited for combat ACMs, BVR/WVR and A2A/A2G.
Please elaborate while making your points; no good claiming anything without any way to prove it.
We want real aero, physics and if possible doc like pics, scans etc.
Enjoy...
Tell us which aircraft is the best design aerodynamically, as well as being the best suited for combat ACMs, BVR/WVR and A2A/A2G.
Please elaborate while making your points; no good claiming anything without any way to prove it.
We want real aero, physics and if possible doc like pics, scans etc.
Enjoy...
PPatRoN
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We want real aero, physics and if possible doc like pics, scans etc.
adr
Last edited by adr; 8th Jun 2005 at 15:46.
Saw Rafale against FA2 a number of times over a year ago. Bl**dy good fight. Best show I saw however ,was two SHAR holding their own against 4 Rafale. It's not what you've got but how you use it that really counts. Just hope RAF makes the best use of the Typhoon and they develop some good tactics.
FRS1 could regularly whip most aircraft with the right crew/GCI.
Never, ever, ever, underestimate the French.
FRS1 could regularly whip most aircraft with the right crew/GCI.
Never, ever, ever, underestimate the French.
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oh lord, the troll from hell has popped onto these boards too. Word of warning Mods, this chap is a professional flamer going under a variety of user names (Thunder, Gogo, GN) and specialises in pro french arguments. I would watch him like a hawk as he likes to cause all sorts of mayhem wherever he appears. Basically his reasoning is France = good, UK - Bad, and we can't do more than that. I'm already placing bets on the trolls life expectancy here 
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Cheers
Thanks you all for your interest on the subject.
True it's the way one flies them. But let's say equal pilot skills dare to compare?
Navaleye;
it's GR9 and 9A i thought and before scaring off one of our jockeys you'd better make sure you got what, pilots first...
They are still "learning the aircrafdts, no pilots are logging so many hours yet as they have to get more guys qualified with too little a number available yet.
Meaning the one you can see are still training.
Widger;
Not sure where you were, could have been anywhere from the Indian Ocean to the British channel. Must have been sometrhing to watch.
adr;
Postal adress, i send you mine. Complete with politico-industrial history and technical descriptive of both aircrafts.
True it's the way one flies them. But let's say equal pilot skills dare to compare?
Navaleye;
it's GR9 and 9A i thought and before scaring off one of our jockeys you'd better make sure you got what, pilots first...
They are still "learning the aircrafdts, no pilots are logging so many hours yet as they have to get more guys qualified with too little a number available yet.
Meaning the one you can see are still training.
Widger;
Not sure where you were, could have been anywhere from the Indian Ocean to the British channel. Must have been sometrhing to watch.
adr;
Postal adress, i send you mine. Complete with politico-industrial history and technical descriptive of both aircrafts.
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Yes he does live in London
"His profile says he lives in London...
If hes pro-France, then let him back to France! "
Yes he does live in London and he is french and he claims benefit and he hates the english - go figure?
Like I said, be very careful as he is a professional flamer, with a long history of network global bans for his activities. I will be monitoring him closely and letting the moderators know the second something is amiss.
"His profile says he lives in London...
If hes pro-France, then let him back to France! "
Yes he does live in London and he is french and he claims benefit and he hates the english - go figure?
Like I said, be very careful as he is a professional flamer, with a long history of network global bans for his activities. I will be monitoring him closely and letting the moderators know the second something is amiss.
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Never, ever, ever, underestimate the French.
I'm neither ex-mil (so probably shouldn't be here - ok, EMUAS once.... ), nor particularly Francophile in outlook, however our friends sur la Manche do build a fair selection of decent aeroplanes. Pick any role - there's a pretty good Froggy aeroplane there.....
Gegene,
The fight was in the Bay of Biscay WSW of Brest.
I do not support the anti-french sentiment on some of these forums. I have worked with many nations over the years and I have the utmost respect forthe French Military (Notice that I qualified it as the French Military and not Politicians).
I think that we Brits could learn a lot from the French. Here's just a short list.
They have their own independent Nuclear Deterrant that does not rely on US hardware.
They are the only European Country that has not forgotten the value of conventional Aircraft Carriers with proper aircraft on them.
Mirage 2000
Exocet
Rafale
They are self sufficient in Nuclear Energy and sell power to us at peak times.
They have a high volume motor industry that is owned by the French.
They charge us to use their motorways.
They eat all the seafood that is caught of our coasts.
They export their economic migrants to us.
Their politicians will screw us every time!
French or Spams.....?????? Discuss
Can't spell deterant, detterant, deterrant, boll**** Nuclear Force!
The fight was in the Bay of Biscay WSW of Brest.
I do not support the anti-french sentiment on some of these forums. I have worked with many nations over the years and I have the utmost respect forthe French Military (Notice that I qualified it as the French Military and not Politicians).
I think that we Brits could learn a lot from the French. Here's just a short list.
They have their own independent Nuclear Deterrant that does not rely on US hardware.
They are the only European Country that has not forgotten the value of conventional Aircraft Carriers with proper aircraft on them.
Mirage 2000
Exocet
Rafale
They are self sufficient in Nuclear Energy and sell power to us at peak times.
They have a high volume motor industry that is owned by the French.
They charge us to use their motorways.
They eat all the seafood that is caught of our coasts.
They export their economic migrants to us.
Their politicians will screw us every time!
French or Spams.....?????? Discuss
Can't spell deterant, detterant, deterrant, boll**** Nuclear Force!
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Thanks to all for your interest in this topic
I thought this migh well be interesting for you guys...
ACX programme:
http://img148.echo.cx/img148/3039/acx017uw.jpg
First, the one nicknamed "John Player Special" by the British...
As Chirac once said, they (Eurofighter) lost an opportunity to stay quiet... and take notice.
http://img236.echo.cx/img236/8686/acx028aj.jpg
It turned into this one. The aerodynamics of the combination nose cone/recessed air intakes allowed for a Mach 2.0 aircraft with no mobile parts. Thanks to Dassault aerodynamic advances, it better its requiered specs of M1.8.
http://www.snecma.com/en/group/history/1975.php
"In February 1990, the M88-2 made its first flight on the Rafale A demonstrator built by Dassault Aviation. It showed exemplary performance throughout its test flights. During the first flight, it hit Mach 2 and almost 15,000 meters (almost 50,000 feets), without using its afterburner."
http://www.snecma.com/en/group/history/1975.php
Note: The procedure doesn't allow for the afterburner to be used during the first flight, but the F-404 afterburner must have been used....
"The engine offered startling takeoff acceleration, from idle to full throttle with reheat in less than 3 seconds. By November, the 12 preproduction M88-2 engines had already logged some 1,250 hours of operation."
http://img63.echo.cx/img63/7735/RAFALEA_01.jpg
http://img83.echo.cx/img83/2669/Rafales_profiles.jpg
http://img40.echo.cx/img40/4053/Tri-NationalACA.jpg
This is the ACA, the tri-national "Eurofighter" configuration and one of the reasons why Dassault left the programme.
http://img40.echo.cx/img40/7396/TKF-90.jpg
TFK90 by MBB, the German configuration, non-navalizable and high risks of double-flame out. The main reason for Dassault leaving the programme.
http://img236.echo.cx/img236/5301/acx033sj.jpg
http://img140.echo.cx/img140/3046/acx041hw.jpg
The LAVI was lobbied by the US but was considerably better than the F-16 in all aspects.
http://img135.echo.cx/img135/2497/acx052yy.jpg
This also beats any block of F-16.
http://img234.echo.cx/img234/5302/acx067ah.jpg
Interesting aerodynamic study here...
http://img223.echo.cx/img223/513/atf012xx.jpg
Note that the US manufacturers actually never really developed the configuration, sticking to what theyknow best, a conventional one.
The closest they came to do it was with the HIMAT and some ATF projects.
For Rafale, ONERA tested its aerodynamics very thoughroghly, even to the point of simulating the "Cobra" manoeuvre previous to 1991 when it was flown past 100* AOA and and negative speed without loss of control.
http://www.onera.fr/cahierdelabo/french/amil4.htm
The link above will allow you to access the video of the simulation and wind tunel cobra amnoeuvre for Rafale.
2Widger
Thaks for the Infos.
The anti-French sentiment is now looking like envy to me.
About the French you forgot to include, they kick their politician @rses after having made heroes of them (De Gaulle, Chirac both on a referendum), They don't take the mickey with the customers with an over agressivve sale strategy while having a well developed taste for real service, they charge themself for the use of their motorways. LOL
I'm used to the anti-French bulls, it sweet from most of the lines i read about us, for example there is no way anyone would admit Rafale to be better than Typhoon and even more so F-35, but there is some stuff coming for the aircraft which is designed to defeat stealth in the long term, in a view to counter it on the market.
The use of Aircratf carriers, i think France was one of the pionners so we just borrowed the angle deck and steam catapult idea from Britain, a fair trade for the Harrier side-exhaust design to which the British designers just added the vectoring bit...
2Human Factor
You're right, the French aerospace industry recovered from its hashes after the war to become the No2 worldwide. Partly thanks to Dassault but also a few other manufacturers, i love the Breguet design for the Jaguar...
In fact i, wish the British politicians had had as much respect for theirs than we have, there would be a collaborative competitor to JSJ and X-45/47 by now.
ACX programme:
http://img148.echo.cx/img148/3039/acx017uw.jpg
First, the one nicknamed "John Player Special" by the British...
As Chirac once said, they (Eurofighter) lost an opportunity to stay quiet... and take notice.
http://img236.echo.cx/img236/8686/acx028aj.jpg
It turned into this one. The aerodynamics of the combination nose cone/recessed air intakes allowed for a Mach 2.0 aircraft with no mobile parts. Thanks to Dassault aerodynamic advances, it better its requiered specs of M1.8.
http://www.snecma.com/en/group/history/1975.php
"In February 1990, the M88-2 made its first flight on the Rafale A demonstrator built by Dassault Aviation. It showed exemplary performance throughout its test flights. During the first flight, it hit Mach 2 and almost 15,000 meters (almost 50,000 feets), without using its afterburner."
http://www.snecma.com/en/group/history/1975.php
Note: The procedure doesn't allow for the afterburner to be used during the first flight, but the F-404 afterburner must have been used....
"The engine offered startling takeoff acceleration, from idle to full throttle with reheat in less than 3 seconds. By November, the 12 preproduction M88-2 engines had already logged some 1,250 hours of operation."
http://img63.echo.cx/img63/7735/RAFALEA_01.jpg
http://img83.echo.cx/img83/2669/Rafales_profiles.jpg
http://img40.echo.cx/img40/4053/Tri-NationalACA.jpg
This is the ACA, the tri-national "Eurofighter" configuration and one of the reasons why Dassault left the programme.
http://img40.echo.cx/img40/7396/TKF-90.jpg
TFK90 by MBB, the German configuration, non-navalizable and high risks of double-flame out. The main reason for Dassault leaving the programme.
http://img236.echo.cx/img236/5301/acx033sj.jpg
http://img140.echo.cx/img140/3046/acx041hw.jpg
The LAVI was lobbied by the US but was considerably better than the F-16 in all aspects.
http://img135.echo.cx/img135/2497/acx052yy.jpg
This also beats any block of F-16.
http://img234.echo.cx/img234/5302/acx067ah.jpg
Interesting aerodynamic study here...
http://img223.echo.cx/img223/513/atf012xx.jpg
Note that the US manufacturers actually never really developed the configuration, sticking to what theyknow best, a conventional one.
The closest they came to do it was with the HIMAT and some ATF projects.
For Rafale, ONERA tested its aerodynamics very thoughroghly, even to the point of simulating the "Cobra" manoeuvre previous to 1991 when it was flown past 100* AOA and and negative speed without loss of control.
http://www.onera.fr/cahierdelabo/french/amil4.htm
The link above will allow you to access the video of the simulation and wind tunel cobra amnoeuvre for Rafale.
2Widger
Thaks for the Infos.
The anti-French sentiment is now looking like envy to me.
About the French you forgot to include, they kick their politician @rses after having made heroes of them (De Gaulle, Chirac both on a referendum), They don't take the mickey with the customers with an over agressivve sale strategy while having a well developed taste for real service, they charge themself for the use of their motorways. LOL
I'm used to the anti-French bulls, it sweet from most of the lines i read about us, for example there is no way anyone would admit Rafale to be better than Typhoon and even more so F-35, but there is some stuff coming for the aircraft which is designed to defeat stealth in the long term, in a view to counter it on the market.
The use of Aircratf carriers, i think France was one of the pionners so we just borrowed the angle deck and steam catapult idea from Britain, a fair trade for the Harrier side-exhaust design to which the British designers just added the vectoring bit...
2Human Factor
You're right, the French aerospace industry recovered from its hashes after the war to become the No2 worldwide. Partly thanks to Dassault but also a few other manufacturers, i love the Breguet design for the Jaguar...
In fact i, wish the British politicians had had as much respect for theirs than we have, there would be a collaborative competitor to JSJ and X-45/47 by now.
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Gegene
Interesting link on the cobra manoeuvre, my ropey french allowed me to get the gist. Has this modelling been validated by conducting the manoeuvre?
As for the rest, I am generally suspicious of any manufacurers claims until I see the test data for myself. That is not being anti-french just realistic and is based on hard earned experience. As for which is the better aircraft, the only way to find out is when they play for real.
regards
Retard
Ducking out of the discussion for a while, off to a french speaking country for a couple of weeks.
Interesting link on the cobra manoeuvre, my ropey french allowed me to get the gist. Has this modelling been validated by conducting the manoeuvre?
As for the rest, I am generally suspicious of any manufacurers claims until I see the test data for myself. That is not being anti-french just realistic and is based on hard earned experience. As for which is the better aircraft, the only way to find out is when they play for real.
regards
Retard
Ducking out of the discussion for a while, off to a french speaking country for a couple of weeks.
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You bet they did
During test flights previous to 1991 Rafale flew at passed 100% AOA and 40 Kt negative speed.
This was reported by an ex-Eurofighter test-pilot, i don't have the article here but i'd gladly post it later on.
This is the result of the way they developed its aerodynamics. More to this:
According to Dassualt Rafale test pilot at the previous Paris airshow, it is capable to fly and pass an aileron roll in ANY configuration at speed as low as a 100 Kt.
No joke here. Visit their web sire andenjoy the videos, since there is an interesting view from the HUD from time to time, as well as commentaries, it maoneouvre netry speed is known.
This was reported by an ex-Eurofighter test-pilot, i don't have the article here but i'd gladly post it later on.
This is the result of the way they developed its aerodynamics. More to this:
According to Dassualt Rafale test pilot at the previous Paris airshow, it is capable to fly and pass an aileron roll in ANY configuration at speed as low as a 100 Kt.
No joke here. Visit their web sire andenjoy the videos, since there is an interesting view from the HUD from time to time, as well as commentaries, it maoneouvre netry speed is known.
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Yes they did
Prior to 1991, Rafale was flown passed 100* AOA and 40 Kt negative speed.
This was reported by some guys testing the Rafale on an article that i don't have here but i could easly post it later.
The pilots in charge of the aircraft were saying that they prefered to use Helmet-mounted Target designators to the Cobra manoeuvre as it leaves the aircraft with too little energy (Classic case of aerobraking).
Still it's a demonstration of its aerodynamic development.
NO TVC.
This was reported by some guys testing the Rafale on an article that i don't have here but i could easly post it later.
The pilots in charge of the aircraft were saying that they prefered to use Helmet-mounted Target designators to the Cobra manoeuvre as it leaves the aircraft with too little energy (Classic case of aerobraking).
Still it's a demonstration of its aerodynamic development.
NO TVC.
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It's just demnostrating a capabiltiy
Let's make it clear: It have been considered useless as a combat manoeuvre by the western Air Forces even since it was first performed by the Russians.
True it does induce a huge loss of speed/energy, and in the best case it could be used to force an opponent to overshoot, a manoeuvre which the AdA Mirage 2000 pilots uses curently, althought at far lower AOAs.
It was only explored by Dassault as part of the aircraft flight envelope and demonstrate its capabilities.
2engineer(retard)
Would you like to argue with Dassault test pilots on the subject?
At least when looking a video, i\'m picking up on the details which tells ME what is going on and when. I leave the commercial bull and take the rest.
You can keep the confrontational attitude, it doesn\'t change the facts.
And for your info, i don\'t drive thin bins. I\'m a biker thrue and thrue.
Yahaha YZR 1000 Thuderace with some track days under my belt, among which Carol and Donnignton Park. Enjoy you box.
http://img97.echo.cx/img97/6905/thunderwins4mv.jpg
Here, cadeau.
True it does induce a huge loss of speed/energy, and in the best case it could be used to force an opponent to overshoot, a manoeuvre which the AdA Mirage 2000 pilots uses curently, althought at far lower AOAs.
It was only explored by Dassault as part of the aircraft flight envelope and demonstrate its capabilities.
2engineer(retard)
Would you like to argue with Dassault test pilots on the subject?
At least when looking a video, i\'m picking up on the details which tells ME what is going on and when. I leave the commercial bull and take the rest.
You can keep the confrontational attitude, it doesn\'t change the facts.
And for your info, i don\'t drive thin bins. I\'m a biker thrue and thrue.
Yahaha YZR 1000 Thuderace with some track days under my belt, among which Carol and Donnignton Park. Enjoy you box.
http://img97.echo.cx/img97/6905/thunderwins4mv.jpg
Here, cadeau.