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Bismark
Another jump to far.
JHC and JHF are peacetime organizations. They do not fight as entities.
Harriers can deploy under the JFACC or JMCC and (as with any other asset) can also be apportioned to the most appropriate commander as the JTFC see fit (normally on the advice of the Air Specialist - the JFACC (that need not necessarily be RAF)). Could be under the JFACC but apportioned to the JFLCC or JFAmphibCC for CAS.
As for JHC, the same really. AH are normally under the JFLCC whereas (I understand) SH (like other assets such as JNBC Regt) are now coordinated directly from JFHQ (with embedded SHF HQ elements). Could be apportioned to (for instance) JFLCC or JFLogCC as the need requires.
I presume this means that the JHF and JHC will deploy under command of the Joint Commander surely?
Another jump to far.
JHC and JHF are peacetime organizations. They do not fight as entities.
Harriers can deploy under the JFACC or JMCC and (as with any other asset) can also be apportioned to the most appropriate commander as the JTFC see fit (normally on the advice of the Air Specialist - the JFACC (that need not necessarily be RAF)). Could be under the JFACC but apportioned to the JFLCC or JFAmphibCC for CAS.
As for JHC, the same really. AH are normally under the JFLCC whereas (I understand) SH (like other assets such as JNBC Regt) are now coordinated directly from JFHQ (with embedded SHF HQ elements). Could be apportioned to (for instance) JFLCC or JFLogCC as the need requires.
16B,
"The RAF is a service entirely dedicated to putting aircraft in the air"
If you were to take a walk through the corridors of Binnsworth you would find some difficulty in spotting staff who would identify with this statement.
"The RAF is a service entirely dedicated to putting aircraft in the air"
If you were to take a walk through the corridors of Binnsworth you would find some difficulty in spotting staff who would identify with this statement.
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Climbear,
Thanks for keeping me up to date. From what I can gather the RAF are unlikely ever to deploy as an independent unit under their own command. Rather they will always be under a Joint Cdr. Is this also true for the RN or do they still have the ability to deploy as a singleyton/small TG under RN cmd?
With regard to 16B, I am not really worried who owns the jets it is the people who fly (and maintain) them that is important and this is where attitude and efficiency comes in. The fact is that RN/RM aircrew want to fly from the sea the others don't. My understanding is that RAF Sqns have considerably more manpower than an equivalent RN Sqn - is this still the case?
Thanks for keeping me up to date. From what I can gather the RAF are unlikely ever to deploy as an independent unit under their own command. Rather they will always be under a Joint Cdr. Is this also true for the RN or do they still have the ability to deploy as a singleyton/small TG under RN cmd?
With regard to 16B, I am not really worried who owns the jets it is the people who fly (and maintain) them that is important and this is where attitude and efficiency comes in. The fact is that RN/RM aircrew want to fly from the sea the others don't. My understanding is that RAF Sqns have considerably more manpower than an equivalent RN Sqn - is this still the case?
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Interesting thread this. 16 blades said:
Lynx - offensive
Merlin - offensive
SK4 - offensive
SK7 - offensive C2
SHAR for a year or so - offensive
and 16 blades its JFH not JHF. I presume your moniker alludes to you being a Herc (K) mate - an aircraft with a huge offensive capability - not ! (Unless you mean the AC130 flown by the USAF). The reason there is no RN guy in overall command of our FJ assets at the moment is because the crabs very craftily binned 3 Group and moved JFH somewhere else under crab command. Exactly the same mindset that managed to move Australia on paper in the mid sixties to get CVA01 binned ....... You never know when the next reorganisation will take place and although not slated at the moment, you may find the Harrier force or the JSF force under RN command - who can tell? I know of certain RN FJ mates that are being groomed for this type of command .......
Re deployment stories just for info:
My first tour was 40 months, of which I spent 30 months deployed. At the same time (mid nineties), the Crabs didnt go away as much (they were too busy trying to avoid being courts martialled for travel claim fraud in Italy) however I have seen their time away increase over the last decade. Seems to me as time goes on and the Services get smaller and smaller this time away can only increase - the last decade an example of this.
and as for getting a bite - well maybe but morons like you put out so much cr*p that those wannabes with no experience asking innocent questions will actually start to believe the drivel you come out with. Rise Above The Rest - (on all that hot air you spout).
Bismark - the RN will always have the ability to deploy as a UK naval TG under RN command. It just may not happen that much nowadays due to jointery and the nature of ops. And from memory when last a sea with a SHAR sqn and a GR7 squadron for the same number of jets there were [about] 3 times as many GR7 sqn personnel than SHAR sqn personnel.
Ready for the banter, especially from members of the service formed on All Fools Day.
Oggin
The FAA is a flying club for sailors that doesn't even have an offensive capability anymore
Merlin - offensive
SK4 - offensive
SK7 - offensive C2
SHAR for a year or so - offensive
and 16 blades its JFH not JHF. I presume your moniker alludes to you being a Herc (K) mate - an aircraft with a huge offensive capability - not ! (Unless you mean the AC130 flown by the USAF). The reason there is no RN guy in overall command of our FJ assets at the moment is because the crabs very craftily binned 3 Group and moved JFH somewhere else under crab command. Exactly the same mindset that managed to move Australia on paper in the mid sixties to get CVA01 binned ....... You never know when the next reorganisation will take place and although not slated at the moment, you may find the Harrier force or the JSF force under RN command - who can tell? I know of certain RN FJ mates that are being groomed for this type of command .......
Re deployment stories just for info:
My first tour was 40 months, of which I spent 30 months deployed. At the same time (mid nineties), the Crabs didnt go away as much (they were too busy trying to avoid being courts martialled for travel claim fraud in Italy) however I have seen their time away increase over the last decade. Seems to me as time goes on and the Services get smaller and smaller this time away can only increase - the last decade an example of this.
and as for getting a bite - well maybe but morons like you put out so much cr*p that those wannabes with no experience asking innocent questions will actually start to believe the drivel you come out with. Rise Above The Rest - (on all that hot air you spout).
Bismark - the RN will always have the ability to deploy as a UK naval TG under RN command. It just may not happen that much nowadays due to jointery and the nature of ops. And from memory when last a sea with a SHAR sqn and a GR7 squadron for the same number of jets there were [about] 3 times as many GR7 sqn personnel than SHAR sqn personnel.
Ready for the banter, especially from members of the service formed on All Fools Day.
Oggin
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Bismark
All services have the ability to deply individually (although our Land based colleagues find it difficult to get very far without the help of the other 2) note RAF operational detachment to Baltic.
Again - as you identified with assets - we all contribute to defence: more particularly, given this forum, to contribute to the delivery of air power. The only people who seem to gain from inter-Service bickering (a level above banter) are the Treasury.
So in pythonesque style let's unite against the common enemy (not the Peoples' Front of Judea). Maybe we should be asking -Most effective arm of National Power: Treasury or Armed Forces?
Oggin
If the C130 (of whatever mark) cannot be counted as offensive, how can you count the SK4? Surely both have the ability to deliver stealy eyed killing machines over distance to their objective.
Is this also true for the RN or do they still have the ability to deploy as a singleyton/small TG under RN cmd?
Again - as you identified with assets - we all contribute to defence: more particularly, given this forum, to contribute to the delivery of air power. The only people who seem to gain from inter-Service bickering (a level above banter) are the Treasury.
So in pythonesque style let's unite against the common enemy (not the Peoples' Front of Judea). Maybe we should be asking -Most effective arm of National Power: Treasury or Armed Forces?
Oggin
If the C130 (of whatever mark) cannot be counted as offensive, how can you count the SK4? Surely both have the ability to deliver stealy eyed killing machines over distance to their objective.
Last edited by Climebear; 23rd May 2005 at 09:32.
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Climebear,
At last some f
kng sense.
The fact that we are all pulling in the same direction seems to have escaped most of you from whatever service you are all from.
We have all been done over in some form or another.
The constant bickering has lead to all sorts of govt induced cuts, and more importantly can only intensify calls for one joint defence service. Which would be a bit crap.
The sooner people stop worrying what uniform they are wearing and get on with the job they have to do, and we ALL have a role, the better.
Sits on moral highground, enjoying the view.
TTH
At last some f
kng sense.The fact that we are all pulling in the same direction seems to have escaped most of you from whatever service you are all from.
We have all been done over in some form or another.
The constant bickering has lead to all sorts of govt induced cuts, and more importantly can only intensify calls for one joint defence service. Which would be a bit crap.
The sooner people stop worrying what uniform they are wearing and get on with the job they have to do, and we ALL have a role, the better.
Sits on moral highground, enjoying the view.
TTH
Bismark,
This RN versus RAF squadron manpower thing is always coming around, the one thing the Navy always seem to forget is the size of the squadrons aircraft establishment. A SHAR outfit had 7 aircraft, a GR7 had up to 16, in the RAF a SHAR sized squadron would be called a Flight. I remember a mate of mine at Gut in the 80’s who was on the receiving end of a visit by some SHAR outfit, eventually the old topic of over manned Crab squadrons came up and my mate could NOT convince the daft web footed fool that the reason that his Harrier GR3 squadron of 21 aircraft had more manpower than the webbed ones Sea Harrier FRS1 squadron of 5 aircraft had something to do with the fact that they had 4 times as many jets!
Merlin HMA1 squadrons of 4 cabs? Of COURSE they will have less manpower than a proper sized RAF outfit.
This RN versus RAF squadron manpower thing is always coming around, the one thing the Navy always seem to forget is the size of the squadrons aircraft establishment. A SHAR outfit had 7 aircraft, a GR7 had up to 16, in the RAF a SHAR sized squadron would be called a Flight. I remember a mate of mine at Gut in the 80’s who was on the receiving end of a visit by some SHAR outfit, eventually the old topic of over manned Crab squadrons came up and my mate could NOT convince the daft web footed fool that the reason that his Harrier GR3 squadron of 21 aircraft had more manpower than the webbed ones Sea Harrier FRS1 squadron of 5 aircraft had something to do with the fact that they had 4 times as many jets!
Merlin HMA1 squadrons of 4 cabs? Of COURSE they will have less manpower than a proper sized RAF outfit.
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Climebear
Agree with your synopsis but was not referring to troop delivery, I was alluding to another capability highlighted by CrabInCab on Page 2 of this thread:
Then again I suppose any aircraft can have a machine gun bolted to it if need be.
Pr00ne: The last time I had my webbed feet on a CVS there was the same number of GR7 and SHAR, yet the number of air force squadron personnel on board was substantially more than the RN squadron personnel. The GR7 squadron had not brought all its jets, obviously, however they stated that they were still operating their jets left ashore somewhere and thus one would assume they had left sufficient people ashore to do this. I think the fewer number of people is not something to score points about, its just that an embarked FAA squadron has, by nature of its experience, been whittled down to the bare minimum over the years due to the requirement to be as efficient as possible and take up as little space as possible whilst embarked.
Oggin
Agree with your synopsis but was not referring to troop delivery, I was alluding to another capability highlighted by CrabInCab on Page 2 of this thread:
with one Sea King HC4 attacking and sinking an Iraqi patrol boat with a machine gun.
Pr00ne: The last time I had my webbed feet on a CVS there was the same number of GR7 and SHAR, yet the number of air force squadron personnel on board was substantially more than the RN squadron personnel. The GR7 squadron had not brought all its jets, obviously, however they stated that they were still operating their jets left ashore somewhere and thus one would assume they had left sufficient people ashore to do this. I think the fewer number of people is not something to score points about, its just that an embarked FAA squadron has, by nature of its experience, been whittled down to the bare minimum over the years due to the requirement to be as efficient as possible and take up as little space as possible whilst embarked.
Oggin
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Having worked with Aircrew from all three services, I do not doubt the professionalism of any, they just have different roles. Put it this way, at least they fly which is more than I can. (should have tried harder at school)
Then again , it was my choice to maintain and keep the flyers flying.
Exleckie
Then again , it was my choice to maintain and keep the flyers flying.
Exleckie
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Oggin,
I think you'll find that the Herc fleet can deploy a brigade-strength force, including vehicles, equipment, weapons and ammo, onto virtually any piece of land, anywhere in the world, by day or night, in virtually any weather (theoretically), in the space of 5 minutes. Now THAT is offensive capability.
I was once asked by a Fighter Controller, during a bar banter session in MPA, exactly how I could evade detection and destroy his radar site. I offered the prospect of 80 hairy arsed paras, dropped the other side of the hill, out of his sight, to come and say hello and ruin his day. I think you'll find that's pretty 'offensive' (much like my banter, it seems, to the sensitive boys of the FAA) - after all, humans are the most accurate and reliable guided weapons available.
16B
I think you'll find that the Herc fleet can deploy a brigade-strength force, including vehicles, equipment, weapons and ammo, onto virtually any piece of land, anywhere in the world, by day or night, in virtually any weather (theoretically), in the space of 5 minutes. Now THAT is offensive capability.
I was once asked by a Fighter Controller, during a bar banter session in MPA, exactly how I could evade detection and destroy his radar site. I offered the prospect of 80 hairy arsed paras, dropped the other side of the hill, out of his sight, to come and say hello and ruin his day. I think you'll find that's pretty 'offensive' (much like my banter, it seems, to the sensitive boys of the FAA) - after all, humans are the most accurate and reliable guided weapons available.
16B
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16B - I'd have to agree with your argument. Nicely put, for once. I was talking about dropping or influencing things that drop ordnance of some sort however dropping off human messengers of death achieves the same aim.
I think we can agree that every platform, be it dark or light blue (or green), has its role to play otherwise we wouldnt have it.
I also think that instead of all this willy waving we should try to objectively answer the original posters question. i.e.
RN - mainly rotary, some fixed wing. Fly from ships. Go on ops in ships, then may or may not stage ashore. Whilst onboard, live quite well, especially compared to some of those ashore. When at home, limited to a couple of major bases with a chance to see a few more places as career progresses.
RAF - all types and a greater number. Some fly from ships, most from land. Traditionally got themselves sorted into nice accommodation ashore, however this being eroded over time. When at home, opportunity to serve at more locations, but initially maybe tied to certain locations due to aircraft type then chance to see a few more places as career progresses.
Travel - does he want to spend time away from home - both.
Is he inclined to want to have stability (of sorts) whilst deployed (ie same location) - RAF (except maybe the AT fleet)
Is he inclined to want to see new places every week or so - RN
Pay - the same
Training - Cranwell vs BRNC - each to their own, on a personal note going through Dartmouth during the summer with the awesome view out the window made up for some of the BS that went on in term 1. Term 2 was a complete laugh but that was a while ago and the syllabus has changed, I believe you actually have to go to sea on IST or DTS or something now, even as a WAFU. Plus we traditionally thrashed the Crabs at both the Dartmouth and Cranwell games
dont know current stats on this though - maybe Pielander could update us 
So, all in all reasonably different. Whoever you talk to, they will say their flying is the best etc, very rewarding etc however you must realise that flying from a ship and the lifestyle that accompanies it is fundamentally different from flying from ashore and the lifestyle that accompanies that. Your choice, choose wisely!
Oggin
I think we can agree that every platform, be it dark or light blue (or green), has its role to play otherwise we wouldnt have it.
I also think that instead of all this willy waving we should try to objectively answer the original posters question. i.e.
RN - mainly rotary, some fixed wing. Fly from ships. Go on ops in ships, then may or may not stage ashore. Whilst onboard, live quite well, especially compared to some of those ashore. When at home, limited to a couple of major bases with a chance to see a few more places as career progresses.
RAF - all types and a greater number. Some fly from ships, most from land. Traditionally got themselves sorted into nice accommodation ashore, however this being eroded over time. When at home, opportunity to serve at more locations, but initially maybe tied to certain locations due to aircraft type then chance to see a few more places as career progresses.
Travel - does he want to spend time away from home - both.
Is he inclined to want to have stability (of sorts) whilst deployed (ie same location) - RAF (except maybe the AT fleet)
Is he inclined to want to see new places every week or so - RN
Pay - the same
Training - Cranwell vs BRNC - each to their own, on a personal note going through Dartmouth during the summer with the awesome view out the window made up for some of the BS that went on in term 1. Term 2 was a complete laugh but that was a while ago and the syllabus has changed, I believe you actually have to go to sea on IST or DTS or something now, even as a WAFU. Plus we traditionally thrashed the Crabs at both the Dartmouth and Cranwell games
dont know current stats on this though - maybe Pielander could update us So, all in all reasonably different. Whoever you talk to, they will say their flying is the best etc, very rewarding etc however you must realise that flying from a ship and the lifestyle that accompanies it is fundamentally different from flying from ashore and the lifestyle that accompanies that. Your choice, choose wisely!
Oggin
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Training - Cranwell vs BRNC - each to their own, on a personal note going through Dartmouth during the summer with the awesome view out the window made up for some of the BS that went on in term 1. Term 2 was a complete laugh but that was a while ago and the syllabus has changed, I believe you actually have to go to sea on IST or DTS or something now, even as a WAFU.
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Well I would like thank Oggin and Airborne for their last contributions, especially Oggin who has tried to be objective in his post rather than subjective as a great many before it were! From what I have seen of both services they are excellent, but I must admit I am drawn to the FAA for the challenges it brings.
Fingers crossed I will be on the front line with you in about five years time!
Fingers crossed I will be on the front line with you in about five years time!
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"Plus we traditionally thrashed the Crabs at both the Dartmouth and Cranwell games dont know current stats on this though"
Have played for both sides (at different times) and was on the winning side both times.
Regards
Retard
Have played for both sides (at different times) and was on the winning side both times.
Regards
Retard
I can comment from a reasonably balanced viewpoint here....I've flown Operationally with both RN and RAF. I liked the can-do, not hide-bound by rules, get it done within the best traditions of the service attitude that the RN had. The Crabs went to the ends of the earth to write rules for any possiblility, they are very professional, if a little too tightly wound. The RN pushes responsibility right down to the coalface; it empowers its workforce and, in my experience, makes for a better working environment. Flying from a ship has proved to be the most challenging aviation I have ever commited. Life aboard Pusser's Grey doesn't suit everyone; I hated it! You must decide what you want from a career in avaition. All three services offer a great deal. If you want to go into civil aviation (big jets) afterwards then the answer is simple. Read the forums, take 90% with a pinch of salt, but realise that we are ALL professional, but that our end aims are somewhat different which breeds a certain amount of inter-service rivalry. Ciao bella.
HM
HM
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Oggin/AA
BRNC has changed significantly in the last couple of years - obviously the College still retains its fine historic and imposing standing looking out over the river Dart but the training has marched on relentlessly.
Gone is term 1 and 2 for a 'phased' training structure whereby each phase lasts 7 weeks. WAFU's now do 5 phases with the 2nd phase being grading. 1st is militarisation - cutting the apron strings and doing leadership - BLD and ACE or NEX and PLX as it was in my/our day.
Phase 3 is firefighting/BSSC etc and then phase 4 off to sea for IST. Back to BRNC for final phase - DO's cse and Op Planning followed by Pass Out parade.
WRT pay - that might be equal but FRI seems fair to stay in the RN for some time, irrespective of branch - P or O. See threads with Si Clik's posts concerning recruitment issues at the mo.
Obviously the RN's Nos1 uniform is a real fanny magnet compared to the jeans and denim jacket issued by the crabs so if nothing else here has swung your decision surely that does the job.
One final note - which service has FW capability, RW capability, global deployability (IHN support) and an autonomous amphib capability with its own combat troops.........and lots of fun!!!
Ah yes the Senior Service!!!!
And box...... ready to recieve banter!
BRNC has changed significantly in the last couple of years - obviously the College still retains its fine historic and imposing standing looking out over the river Dart but the training has marched on relentlessly.
Gone is term 1 and 2 for a 'phased' training structure whereby each phase lasts 7 weeks. WAFU's now do 5 phases with the 2nd phase being grading. 1st is militarisation - cutting the apron strings and doing leadership - BLD and ACE or NEX and PLX as it was in my/our day.
Phase 3 is firefighting/BSSC etc and then phase 4 off to sea for IST. Back to BRNC for final phase - DO's cse and Op Planning followed by Pass Out parade.
WRT pay - that might be equal but FRI seems fair to stay in the RN for some time, irrespective of branch - P or O. See threads with Si Clik's posts concerning recruitment issues at the mo.
Obviously the RN's Nos1 uniform is a real fanny magnet compared to the jeans and denim jacket issued by the crabs so if nothing else here has swung your decision surely that does the job.
One final note - which service has FW capability, RW capability, global deployability (IHN support) and an autonomous amphib capability with its own combat troops.........and lots of fun!!!
Ah yes the Senior Service!!!!
And box...... ready to recieve banter!
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Must say, i have never seen so much hooking and reeling in one thread before! Keep up the good work!
Just last week i passed my selection interview for RN. Am currently awaiting FAT date (should be confirmed this week), so hope to find out first hand what it is like at BRNC, and how the senior service do it.
will inform you of FAT results in due course......
16B - Royal Navy - Be part of something
Regards all
Just last week i passed my selection interview for RN. Am currently awaiting FAT date (should be confirmed this week), so hope to find out first hand what it is like at BRNC, and how the senior service do it.
will inform you of FAT results in due course......
16B - Royal Navy - Be part of something
Regards all
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Likewise Nick0021. Well, actually I am a bit further on than that, with AIB at the end of June. Was just looking for a few more points to base some arguments on.
Good luck with your FATs!
Good luck with your FATs!
Oh dear, oh dear!
Amb_211085 and nick0021.
You both sound like fascinating people.
The Navy will be lucky to have you on board.
I, for one, am glad you won't be joining the Air Force.
BV
You both sound like fascinating people.
The Navy will be lucky to have you on board.
I, for one, am glad you won't be joining the Air Force.
BV