do we ever learn??
Join Date: Dec 2004
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The reason the porta kabins haven't gone up yet is because we aren't pulling out. If they ever do go up give it 6 months and we will be out of there and off to some other hot spot. So the cycle continues..............
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: USA (Naturalized but bits still British!)
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Obviously you guys need to get Tony Blair to buy some shares in Halliburton
Get him to have a chat with Mr. Chaney, he could give some pointers on getting government money flowing into shareholders pockets whilst providing the sharp end guys with some home comforts.
Get him to have a chat with Mr. Chaney, he could give some pointers on getting government money flowing into shareholders pockets whilst providing the sharp end guys with some home comforts.
Join Date: Feb 2005
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All
Tuuckiebloke has a very fair point to make.
In my time I have flown or worked with all three services. The trouble with all of them is they have that can do attitude and we all get stuck in and get on with the job. The moans and gripes are still the same as they were 25 years ago when I first started flying. However, now we have this modern medium of pooters and prune on which to air our moans. And it’s not just the flyers who have justified moan. Menders, benders, stackers, scribbles, medics, uncle tom cobley and all, and dare I say it scuffers are all in the same pooh and I don’t think it will ever change because of the way we are.
We had exactly the same in the Falklands war and its immediate aftermath. I remember going ashore and living in a sheep shed. Half a bloody squadron there and nobody had even thought to include us on the ration strength! Then we got kicked out into tents so the sheep could come in for sheering. It took nearly 14 months before we moved into porta cabins at Kelly’s.
The big problem then as it is now is that we aircrew types are doing only a short time there but a very fast and regular rotation. We actually see the conditions getting worse. All the lads and lasses on four or six month stints in Basrah do there stint and then they are safe for at least 24 months. They don’t know any different. To them it is just one crap tour and once done forget about it for a while. The same is true of the execs there. They do there bit agree to change something but are tour ex before it is implemented. Next bloke in has his/her own agenda. Big wheel and groundhogs spring to mind.
The conditions we are living and trying to work in are a flight safety hazard; and I do mean all of us. The trouble is who is going to do something about it. PJHQ say 2 Gp problem; 2 Gp say PJHQ. Both call truckies whingers. We have now lost two aircraft post war and god forbid we lose another. We are all our own worst enemies because we will all press to get a job done even if we are knackered. It takes big balls to stand up to the boss and say no I can’t work on this aircraft or no I’m too F****D to fly. The sooner dome desk jockeys come out of their ivory towers and have a look see what the real world is like the sooner all our detachments will be a safer place.
Rant Over.
Tuuckiebloke has a very fair point to make.
In my time I have flown or worked with all three services. The trouble with all of them is they have that can do attitude and we all get stuck in and get on with the job. The moans and gripes are still the same as they were 25 years ago when I first started flying. However, now we have this modern medium of pooters and prune on which to air our moans. And it’s not just the flyers who have justified moan. Menders, benders, stackers, scribbles, medics, uncle tom cobley and all, and dare I say it scuffers are all in the same pooh and I don’t think it will ever change because of the way we are.
We had exactly the same in the Falklands war and its immediate aftermath. I remember going ashore and living in a sheep shed. Half a bloody squadron there and nobody had even thought to include us on the ration strength! Then we got kicked out into tents so the sheep could come in for sheering. It took nearly 14 months before we moved into porta cabins at Kelly’s.
The big problem then as it is now is that we aircrew types are doing only a short time there but a very fast and regular rotation. We actually see the conditions getting worse. All the lads and lasses on four or six month stints in Basrah do there stint and then they are safe for at least 24 months. They don’t know any different. To them it is just one crap tour and once done forget about it for a while. The same is true of the execs there. They do there bit agree to change something but are tour ex before it is implemented. Next bloke in has his/her own agenda. Big wheel and groundhogs spring to mind.
The conditions we are living and trying to work in are a flight safety hazard; and I do mean all of us. The trouble is who is going to do something about it. PJHQ say 2 Gp problem; 2 Gp say PJHQ. Both call truckies whingers. We have now lost two aircraft post war and god forbid we lose another. We are all our own worst enemies because we will all press to get a job done even if we are knackered. It takes big balls to stand up to the boss and say no I can’t work on this aircraft or no I’m too F****D to fly. The sooner dome desk jockeys come out of their ivory towers and have a look see what the real world is like the sooner all our detachments will be a safer place.
Rant Over.
Join Date: May 2004
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Tier I/II accomodation etc
I remember a brief at Marham, sometime in late '02 (I think) where the plans for providing accomodation for extended periods deployed were discussed. I forget exactly who the briefing team were (it may have been STC or perhaps AFBLT) but it was made very clear that the management had decided that 'austere' was the way ahead - despite many vocal, informal and formal protestations from those of us who had conducted & supported ops over Afghanistan from Seeb, Thumrait etc under the deliberately austere Ex Saif Sarreea conditions.
The accom plan as it was laid out to us at the time was that for the first 6-8 months of a UK-only deployment's lifespan, we could expect to be kept in the standard 18' x 18' tents, camp beds, sleeping bags (all of course designed for European ops), washing in a plastic basin, water from stand-pipes etc. After this period, the loggies would be in a position to locally hire/ship in portacabin-type accomodation and the US-style 'cadillac' ablution blocks. From 8 months to 2 years the focus would switch to finding/building permanant accomodation blocks.
Anyone who has deployed with or alongside the US forces knows how easy it is to build a Harvest Falcon tent city, with decent sleeping, eating and ablution facilities, allowing aircrew and ground personnel to get a decent night's sleep and not feel that you are part of some third-world refugee camp.
Clearly, this plan has either been thrown out of the window, or some bright spark decided that to keep people in tents would be cheaper in the long run.
I'm not saying that there aren't personnel for worse off than us, it's more that just because we can live and operate in sh***y conditions, doesn't mean that we should.
And before the response comes that the accom has not been improved due to the high risk and local threat, personnel from my unit regularly deploy to a predominantly US-operated base in a severely high-risk area much further north, and they live in 2-4 person cabins!
We can do much better than we are doing, and with the amount of time we are all spending deployed, investment in decent accomodation is a must.
Rant off//
SBG
The accom plan as it was laid out to us at the time was that for the first 6-8 months of a UK-only deployment's lifespan, we could expect to be kept in the standard 18' x 18' tents, camp beds, sleeping bags (all of course designed for European ops), washing in a plastic basin, water from stand-pipes etc. After this period, the loggies would be in a position to locally hire/ship in portacabin-type accomodation and the US-style 'cadillac' ablution blocks. From 8 months to 2 years the focus would switch to finding/building permanant accomodation blocks.
Anyone who has deployed with or alongside the US forces knows how easy it is to build a Harvest Falcon tent city, with decent sleeping, eating and ablution facilities, allowing aircrew and ground personnel to get a decent night's sleep and not feel that you are part of some third-world refugee camp.
Clearly, this plan has either been thrown out of the window, or some bright spark decided that to keep people in tents would be cheaper in the long run.
I'm not saying that there aren't personnel for worse off than us, it's more that just because we can live and operate in sh***y conditions, doesn't mean that we should.
And before the response comes that the accom has not been improved due to the high risk and local threat, personnel from my unit regularly deploy to a predominantly US-operated base in a severely high-risk area much further north, and they live in 2-4 person cabins!
We can do much better than we are doing, and with the amount of time we are all spending deployed, investment in decent accomodation is a must.
Rant off//
SBG
Champagne anyone...?
To be fair the tented set up we have in BSR is actually pretty decent. I'm sorry, I'll amend that, WAS pretty decent. Good showers and ablutions, hard plastic floors and aircon. None of yer old 12 by 12 cobblers. Unfortunately, when I first arrived in BSR late April/May 03 the newly assembled tentage was known as TDA - Temporary Domestic Accomodation. It has subsequently been renamed Tented Domestic Accomodation just so we don't think it's temporary 
Also, chatting with the contractors who were putting it up, the TDA had an expected life of one year before it would need to be taken down and refurbed/swapped for a new one. 2 years and counting.......... The place is just starting to fall apart now.
I have no problem with sleeping in the tents in BSR, in fact I'm such a sad giffer I volunteer for dets there. What does grip my sh*t is what BTDTGTTShirt alluded to - the attitude of the "permanent" staff there. As far as I can tell all the aircrew and aircraft at BSR are a hinderance to the efficient running of the APOD
They seem to have no concept of what we (any of us) us do on a daily basis, despite our best efforts to educate them. Important things at BSR are wearing hats, ironing trousers, Health and Safety at Work and not running in the corridors with scissors. I'm all for military discipline and the wearing of correct uniform etc, what not for is some self obsessed remf telling me or my crew to put our hats on whilst in the wagon after a 14 hour, 5 sector day in upwards of 50degC, operating into some of the most dangerous airfields in the world (not trying to be clever, just stating fact) or some jobsworth telling me I can't have any dinner because I've forgotten my meal card
The internet access and phones, are, to be honest great. I've never had any problems getting on them and am grateful for the facility. The gyms are pretty decent, food is good and the flying operational and at times rewarding 
. What the place needs is to understand that we're not taking the p*ss quoting crew duty regs when we have to. We have very few if any jobsworths and all the crews I know will bend over backwards to get the job done even if it means "stretching" the regs in places. None of us want to be the one that prevents someone getting home on time from their det by delaying a sortie. All the crews work hard under dangerous and, at times, trying conditions. All we ask in return is some understanding from those that "run" the place.
Also, chatting with the contractors who were putting it up, the TDA had an expected life of one year before it would need to be taken down and refurbed/swapped for a new one. 2 years and counting.......... The place is just starting to fall apart now.I have no problem with sleeping in the tents in BSR, in fact I'm such a sad giffer I volunteer for dets there. What does grip my sh*t is what BTDTGTTShirt alluded to - the attitude of the "permanent" staff there. As far as I can tell all the aircrew and aircraft at BSR are a hinderance to the efficient running of the APOD
They seem to have no concept of what we (any of us) us do on a daily basis, despite our best efforts to educate them. Important things at BSR are wearing hats, ironing trousers, Health and Safety at Work and not running in the corridors with scissors. I'm all for military discipline and the wearing of correct uniform etc, what not for is some self obsessed remf telling me or my crew to put our hats on whilst in the wagon after a 14 hour, 5 sector day in upwards of 50degC, operating into some of the most dangerous airfields in the world (not trying to be clever, just stating fact) or some jobsworth telling me I can't have any dinner because I've forgotten my meal card The internet access and phones, are, to be honest great. I've never had any problems getting on them and am grateful for the facility. The gyms are pretty decent, food is good and the flying operational and at times rewarding
. What the place needs is to understand that we're not taking the p*ss quoting crew duty regs when we have to. We have very few if any jobsworths and all the crews I know will bend over backwards to get the job done even if it means "stretching" the regs in places. None of us want to be the one that prevents someone getting home on time from their det by delaying a sortie. All the crews work hard under dangerous and, at times, trying conditions. All we ask in return is some understanding from those that "run" the place.
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: A 1/2 World away from Ice Statio Kilo
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If you have access to the Internet does this mean you have access to a CONDOR report, if they still exist. That will by pass all the politics at the career officer level and should get looked at. Watch out for the witch hunt post report but it will be conducted by the snowcaps so you should be ok
If it is that you are upset your samsonite wheeled case got dusty well I have no sympathy, we don't have a pool either it was health and safety or the PTI was too busy .
Charlie sends
If it is that you are upset your samsonite wheeled case got dusty well I have no sympathy, we don't have a pool either it was health and safety or the PTI was too busy
.Charlie sends
Join Date: Oct 2004
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Gents,
We must be very careful when throwing in the flight safety card, it is our ace and if used routinely will lead to the retorts already mentioned in this thread and the erosion of it's value. If you have genuine concerns about flight safety then this is not where they need to be aired. There are valid points about the conditions we suffer, in varying degrees, being raised and it is good to share and learn from what others have to say but please, one day you will really need to use the flight safety card, lets hope you haven't worn it out.
We must be very careful when throwing in the flight safety card, it is our ace and if used routinely will lead to the retorts already mentioned in this thread and the erosion of it's value. If you have genuine concerns about flight safety then this is not where they need to be aired. There are valid points about the conditions we suffer, in varying degrees, being raised and it is good to share and learn from what others have to say but please, one day you will really need to use the flight safety card, lets hope you haven't worn it out.
