do we ever learn??
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Without being too hard nosed about it, if you consider that you are not capable of executing your mission safely due to fatigue, then it is your duty to report it to the a/c commander/authoriser/Squadron hierarchy, not whinge on an anonymous forum about it. If the rules designed to protect you and your crew cover this (which i'll bet they do), then use them, or are you afraid of telling your superiors that they have made an error in judgement? Who knows, maybe they really believe everything is OK at the sharp end. They aren't going to do anything about a pprune thread, but they will surely sit up and take notice if you actually play the Flight safety card.
If the operational tempo is altered because missions are lost due to crew fatigue, then perhaps those that can, will do something about it.
If you are operating within the rules, and still feel this way, either they (the rules) are wrong, or you are!
If the operational tempo is altered because missions are lost due to crew fatigue, then perhaps those that can, will do something about it.
If you are operating within the rules, and still feel this way, either they (the rules) are wrong, or you are!
Thread Starter
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ah yes, good in theory , however on a recent chat with the hierachy(group captain and above) the answer was given to my moans
'' dont give me that flight safety crap''
scary...
'' dont give me that flight safety crap''
scary...
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Well, what you are coming out with now does sound like you are using the flight safety rules to try to justify your unwillingness to suck it up and get on with the job and stop wingeing. The RAF has had it so good for so long that you don't know the standards which the more senior services have always put up and proved to be safely sustainable. Just shows how much fat their still is to be trimmed from the bulging growbag that is the RAF.
This "I cannot fly unless I have slept in a feather bed in perfect silence" is where the whole crew duty RAF b@llocks falls apart. Unless you have regularly flown fatigued during exercises, training etc, how do you know your own limits? And should the first time you get tired be on operations?
Just my humble opinion.
This "I cannot fly unless I have slept in a feather bed in perfect silence" is where the whole crew duty RAF b@llocks falls apart. Unless you have regularly flown fatigued during exercises, training etc, how do you know your own limits? And should the first time you get tired be on operations?
Just my humble opinion.
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The RAF crew duty b@llocks pales in to miniscule insignificance alongside some of the b@llocks dreamt up by RN.
What the **** is Red Sea Rig all about and more importantly....why? (Especially when on Ops)
I think Truckie's message is the "Man the f*** up" response is used with increasing ease and frequency when addressing welfare/crew rest/domestic bliss issues.
What the **** is Red Sea Rig all about and more importantly....why? (Especially when on Ops)
I think Truckie's message is the "Man the f*** up" response is used with increasing ease and frequency when addressing welfare/crew rest/domestic bliss issues.
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It's comfortable, girls love it, and when at the bar you don't smell like crabs in sweaty day-old ovies. What's the problem?
Its about time the RAF does, as you so effectively put it, "Man the F@ck up"
I have seen what they think qualifies as field conditions. I landed at some all singing all dancing ex at St Mawgan to go into "field conditions" and was apologised to because "we only have one large screen Sky or DVD tent I'm afraid, sorry. Oh, and some of the tents won't get electricity till tomorrow"
Its about time the RAF does, as you so effectively put it, "Man the F@ck up"
I have seen what they think qualifies as field conditions. I landed at some all singing all dancing ex at St Mawgan to go into "field conditions" and was apologised to because "we only have one large screen Sky or DVD tent I'm afraid, sorry. Oh, and some of the tents won't get electricity till tomorrow"
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So when it comes to a good night's kip, a phone call home or receiving a saucy bluey from the girlfriend it's "RAF b@llocks" but when it comes to looking smart in the bar, appealing to the opposite sex and smelling nice it's vital no doubt?
Geez, you guys....
Geez, you guys....
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Whilst I have a great sympathy (and perhaps some empathy) for the truckies and the conditions described I have to take issue on one very important point. This was highlighted earlier when it was asked why you did not sort it with your chain of command. Why dont you? Why blame the politicians when in fact it is your own pathetically weak and absolutely crap senior officers that are to blame for your poor and dangerous(?) living conditions. Go to them or is everyone too frightened of messing up their next assessment? Sorry guys but you really have to put your own house in order first. What is the response from your command please?
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This thread appalls me. If the Senior Service do not understand Flight Safety they should not be allowed to fly. Clearly those in the RN can go to their bosses and say things that in the RAF are considered LMF (or whatever they call it these days).
Grow up - there is a problem here and typically RAF senior officers do not give a stuff.
ACW
Grow up - there is a problem here and typically RAF senior officers do not give a stuff.
ACW
ah yes, good in theory , however on a recent chat with the hierachy(group captain and above) the answer was given to my moans,
'' dont give me that flight safety crap''
'' dont give me that flight safety crap''
During WW2 RAF and Luftwaffe lost 40-45% of aircraft due to accidents. Soviets 57%. In GW1 33 accidents to 42 combat losses. GW2, 9 accidents, 7shot down
You still need Flight Safety in wartime. Ooops sorry, the war's finished.
Join Date: Apr 2005
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This (C)RAP
Out here in the desert, thousands of miles from home
Spend most my time a day-dreaming, give the man a bone(r)!
Sent here to kill the terrorists by Tony B. Liar
But unlike some previous conflicts, my belly ain’t got D fire.
Will it all soon be done now that it’s rolled into another year
Will I finally get the chance to spend time with those that I hold dear
When we departed ???, we spent many hours on a bus
But despite financial Cut after Cut after Cut, we’re supposed not to fuss
Military Life’s controlled by Boys who just make noise
Get rid of these Bleeders coz they’re no Leaders
Loyalty’s a 2-way street, people are voting with their feet
Lots of other nations provide in-theatre personnel with a Tax Break
But as usual with the UK Government, it’s just Take Take Take
We’re all living in tents either sweating or a-freezing our balls
But you can’t do no proper work if you ain’t got proper tools
If the Military wanted tent material that rustled when it’s windy
Then I can tell you for sure they found one of the top three!
Same old, same old, same old meals
Provided by Contractors on ‘Fantastic Deals’
Military Life’s controlled by Boys who just make noise
Get rid of these Bleeders coz they’re no Leaders
Loyalty’s a 2-way street, people are voting with their feet
When I was younger, Flight Safety was paramount
These days it seems to get overlooked a fair amount
Tests of the tannoy systems happen every day at 4pm
How’s that compatible with sleeping for night flying then?
Need a good nights sleep from Tamazepam to make this headache go away
But we’re either flying or on Standby, Day after Day after Day
They spray round outside the tents with insecticide many times a week
Is it inhaling this stuff that’s making me feel meek?
Military Life’s controlled by Boys who just make noise
Get rid of these Bleeders coz they’re no Leaders
Loyalty’s a 2-way street, people are voting with their feet
The welfare package should leave me without a care
All I can say to that, is shove it where there’s no air
Get a twenty-minute phone allowance to last me a whole week
Allegedly I’d be better treated if I’d been sentenced by a Beak
Apparently I’m man enough to Die for my Country if need be
But when I’m not on Standby, they decree 2 beers is enough for me
I know it might sound like all I’ve done is bleat
But I’m really looking forward to a toilet with a seat
Out here in the desert, thousands of miles from home
Spend most my time a day-dreaming, give the man a bone(r)!
Sent here to kill the terrorists by Tony B. Liar
But unlike some previous conflicts, my belly ain’t got D fire.
Will it all soon be done now that it’s rolled into another year
Will I finally get the chance to spend time with those that I hold dear
When we departed ???, we spent many hours on a bus
But despite financial Cut after Cut after Cut, we’re supposed not to fuss
Military Life’s controlled by Boys who just make noise
Get rid of these Bleeders coz they’re no Leaders
Loyalty’s a 2-way street, people are voting with their feet
Lots of other nations provide in-theatre personnel with a Tax Break
But as usual with the UK Government, it’s just Take Take Take
We’re all living in tents either sweating or a-freezing our balls
But you can’t do no proper work if you ain’t got proper tools
If the Military wanted tent material that rustled when it’s windy
Then I can tell you for sure they found one of the top three!
Same old, same old, same old meals
Provided by Contractors on ‘Fantastic Deals’
Military Life’s controlled by Boys who just make noise
Get rid of these Bleeders coz they’re no Leaders
Loyalty’s a 2-way street, people are voting with their feet
When I was younger, Flight Safety was paramount
These days it seems to get overlooked a fair amount
Tests of the tannoy systems happen every day at 4pm
How’s that compatible with sleeping for night flying then?
Need a good nights sleep from Tamazepam to make this headache go away
But we’re either flying or on Standby, Day after Day after Day
They spray round outside the tents with insecticide many times a week
Is it inhaling this stuff that’s making me feel meek?
Military Life’s controlled by Boys who just make noise
Get rid of these Bleeders coz they’re no Leaders
Loyalty’s a 2-way street, people are voting with their feet
The welfare package should leave me without a care
All I can say to that, is shove it where there’s no air
Get a twenty-minute phone allowance to last me a whole week
Allegedly I’d be better treated if I’d been sentenced by a Beak
Apparently I’m man enough to Die for my Country if need be
But when I’m not on Standby, they decree 2 beers is enough for me
I know it might sound like all I’ve done is bleat
But I’m really looking forward to a toilet with a seat
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ACW418
Train as you fight.
yes there is a higher risk during training.
balanced in my view by the lower risk in ops.
Anyone who has flown a ripple has learned their limits, and is trusted by the FAA to put their hand up when it is reached.
incidentally, the Air Conditioning failing in your tent does not meet the criteria
Train as you fight.
yes there is a higher risk during training.
balanced in my view by the lower risk in ops.
Anyone who has flown a ripple has learned their limits, and is trusted by the FAA to put their hand up when it is reached.
incidentally, the Air Conditioning failing in your tent does not meet the criteria
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Tourist,
Truckie's point is these conditions are brought about largley by penny pinching when funds are clearly squandered elsewhere, and anyone who thinks it professional or manly to take it all on the chin is kidding only one person.
Truckie's point is these conditions are brought about largley by penny pinching when funds are clearly squandered elsewhere, and anyone who thinks it professional or manly to take it all on the chin is kidding only one person.
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Tourist
Thanks for your measured response - which is rare on most threads in my experience. What you say has merit except that naval air operations have never lasted for two years in the same theatre without change. Nor have they in the RAF except for Bomber and Coastal Command in WW2.
I think this is actually the issue that was made. In an Air Force that does not allow people to raise legitimate concerns without the threat of being treated as an outcast the fact that quite junior suits can allow the situation to continue is unacceptable. Once again the thing is personality led - given a decent senior officer the whole thing could be sorted fairly quickly. Even Gp Capts have quite large powers when they want to use them.
Too much not wanting to spoil their promotion chances and not enough caring about the troops in their control.
ACW
Thanks for your measured response - which is rare on most threads in my experience. What you say has merit except that naval air operations have never lasted for two years in the same theatre without change. Nor have they in the RAF except for Bomber and Coastal Command in WW2.
I think this is actually the issue that was made. In an Air Force that does not allow people to raise legitimate concerns without the threat of being treated as an outcast the fact that quite junior suits can allow the situation to continue is unacceptable. Once again the thing is personality led - given a decent senior officer the whole thing could be sorted fairly quickly. Even Gp Capts have quite large powers when they want to use them.
Too much not wanting to spoil their promotion chances and not enough caring about the troops in their control.
ACW
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Lucky ??
Jeez, try being on the green side of things. Believe me you are well sorted. Your point is entirely valid and I agree, please remember there are others out here that are in incredibly worse situations regardin logistical support.
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Is it just me, or is anyone else appalled at the amount of infighting and bitching going on between the services in this thread?
For fux-sake guys, this is about flight safety matters that have had plenty of time to be put right. If money can be found for all the niff-naff and triv (new coats, new rucksacks, new history books, etc!) why is it not available for making peoples lives a little better when away from home in a hostile environment?
I DO enjoy a little inter-service banter when it suites, but please guys, pick the appropriate threads on which to do it. Yes, I do feel for the green types for the conditions they often have to endure and the dark-blues for being stuck in a tin can surrounded by H2O, but I have the sense to say that if they have a problem that could be rectified and hasn't then I would support their efforts to get it put right, not accuse them of being whinging to$$ers!
Would you live in a shed when you could easily have a house? Would you drive a French car when you could easily have a real one? Why should we STILL be living in the conditions in which we do in Iraq when we have been there long enough now to have had it sorted?
Now grow up and have a sensible discussion
MadMark!!!
For fux-sake guys, this is about flight safety matters that have had plenty of time to be put right. If money can be found for all the niff-naff and triv (new coats, new rucksacks, new history books, etc!) why is it not available for making peoples lives a little better when away from home in a hostile environment?
I DO enjoy a little inter-service banter when it suites, but please guys, pick the appropriate threads on which to do it. Yes, I do feel for the green types for the conditions they often have to endure and the dark-blues for being stuck in a tin can surrounded by H2O, but I have the sense to say that if they have a problem that could be rectified and hasn't then I would support their efforts to get it put right, not accuse them of being whinging to$$ers!
Would you live in a shed when you could easily have a house? Would you drive a French car when you could easily have a real one? Why should we STILL be living in the conditions in which we do in Iraq when we have been there long enough now to have had it sorted?
Now grow up and have a sensible discussion
MadMark!!!
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Mad Mark
Hear what you are saying, but is an anonymous forum for rumour and "a little inter service banter", the place where you need the support, or where Flight Safety matters are resolved?
Wether you consider it whinging or not, airing your views on this forum is hardly going to get your long suffering hardships changed is it?
What is requierd it seems is less "its the superiors/politicians fault" and more "no I'm not doing that sortie because of insufficient rest IAW the rules". If your lords and masters are truly so hung up on promotion, they will surely react pretty darn quick to that! The rules are there for your protection.
So why not stick to the rumour, conjecture and banter here, and if something needs changing cos its wrong, use the rules and official channels.
Hear what you are saying, but is an anonymous forum for rumour and "a little inter service banter", the place where you need the support, or where Flight Safety matters are resolved?
Wether you consider it whinging or not, airing your views on this forum is hardly going to get your long suffering hardships changed is it?
What is requierd it seems is less "its the superiors/politicians fault" and more "no I'm not doing that sortie because of insufficient rest IAW the rules". If your lords and masters are truly so hung up on promotion, they will surely react pretty darn quick to that! The rules are there for your protection.
So why not stick to the rumour, conjecture and banter here, and if something needs changing cos its wrong, use the rules and official channels.
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Read It!!
MM, if you took the time to read my post you would have seen that I entirely agree with the original thread. I was merely pointing out that green uns have it even worse...........not to score points, merely to let people know that things aint all rosy elsewhere. I dont care whose Flt Safety is worse, I just would like for us all to be more FS aware, surely you agree with that??