RAF AT fleet, cx this out!
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Swinging Monkey
Appreciate your comments about the bus to BZN. pain in the backside but not the fault of the movers or RAFP, Gp wont send the AT to pick up a few blokes from 1 unit. Sorry about the U/S A/C, again not the fault of the movers or RAFP, maybe look at the "lean" process when it comes to servicing. Knife in the cabin, CAA regs after Sept 11th prohibit such articles on passenger jets, if you have to divert into a civvy airport you are in breach, could look stupid eh? Anyway, why are you wearing a flying suit to travel on AT? You're hardly going to leap out and onto a sortie as soon as you arrve in Thumrait! Stuck on the ground for a while, well overnight they offload your bags and reload the next day. Stuck a few hours, wheres your admin gone? Always carry a small washkit, spare shreds, hand towel etc in your hand baggage, I do. By the way I am not a Mover or RAFP, but I have served with the Regt and as a PMOC detachee all over the world and never had the problems you seem to get, you talk about other peoples attitude, maybe you should check out your own first?
Appreciate your comments about the bus to BZN. pain in the backside but not the fault of the movers or RAFP, Gp wont send the AT to pick up a few blokes from 1 unit. Sorry about the U/S A/C, again not the fault of the movers or RAFP, maybe look at the "lean" process when it comes to servicing. Knife in the cabin, CAA regs after Sept 11th prohibit such articles on passenger jets, if you have to divert into a civvy airport you are in breach, could look stupid eh? Anyway, why are you wearing a flying suit to travel on AT? You're hardly going to leap out and onto a sortie as soon as you arrve in Thumrait! Stuck on the ground for a while, well overnight they offload your bags and reload the next day. Stuck a few hours, wheres your admin gone? Always carry a small washkit, spare shreds, hand towel etc in your hand baggage, I do. By the way I am not a Mover or RAFP, but I have served with the Regt and as a PMOC detachee all over the world and never had the problems you seem to get, you talk about other peoples attitude, maybe you should check out your own first?
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dionysius
Perhaps YOU should tell the movers they aren't allowed onboard untill all pax/crew have left the aircraft, it never happens. It was always my understanding that movers shouldn't go anywhere near the aircraft untill it has been declared safe, for example all chaff and flares downloaded by the armourers, yet still they see fit to unload with stores still in the ducks bill.
nooky
I agree with the idea that all ramp operations should be carried out by the loadie or techies, but as C130Techie points out we don't have the manpower to babysit the muppets. Where as the usaf, on the other hand, have an abundance of manpower, it always makes me laugh when I see 8-12 bods doing a see in.
C130Techie
The alternative to having albert sitting on your noggin, thanks to the movements section is that they use the collective brain cell and talk to the techies, if not physically check the nose bay, before dropping the ramp. It isn't hard it only takes a bit of common sense.
Perhaps YOU should tell the movers they aren't allowed onboard untill all pax/crew have left the aircraft, it never happens. It was always my understanding that movers shouldn't go anywhere near the aircraft untill it has been declared safe, for example all chaff and flares downloaded by the armourers, yet still they see fit to unload with stores still in the ducks bill.
nooky
I agree with the idea that all ramp operations should be carried out by the loadie or techies, but as C130Techie points out we don't have the manpower to babysit the muppets. Where as the usaf, on the other hand, have an abundance of manpower, it always makes me laugh when I see 8-12 bods doing a see in.
C130Techie
The alternative to having albert sitting on your noggin, thanks to the movements section is that they use the collective brain cell and talk to the techies, if not physically check the nose bay, before dropping the ramp. It isn't hard it only takes a bit of common sense.
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Lineslime
Your right we do have a few maint people at the aircraft, but the loadmaster has to be present whilst we load/unload the aircraft and they usually do all the aircraft ramp operations and cant leave until we are finished but then again on the C5s there are quite a few loadmasters onboard as well.
Your right we do have a few maint people at the aircraft, but the loadmaster has to be present whilst we load/unload the aircraft and they usually do all the aircraft ramp operations and cant leave until we are finished but then again on the C5s there are quite a few loadmasters onboard as well.
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STAX,
thanks for the comments, however........
1. Didn't blame the Movers for the bus (or the Plods)
2. Didn't blame the Movers for the u/s jet (or the Plods again)
3. CAA regs eh? since when has the RAF (or any military unit comes to that) worked to CAA rules?? and what happens when I divert in my E-3 or Nimrod into a Civvie base then? Do I and the rest of my crew immediately get arrested and locked up?? Come on, get a grip.
4. At the time of this Op, it was SOP for ALL aircrew to fly in flying suits, and as it happened, on the event in question, the answer is yes, some of us went straight into a briefing and were airborne within several hours of landing in Thumrait.
5. No, I don't (and not many do) carry a div' bag on AT trips. (Have you been on an Op? just how much kit do you take with you pray??)
6. No, they did NOT offload the jet and reload it the next day.
7. My attitude, hmmmm. Well, as most of my comments on this matter seem to be the 'norm' fgor AT, I can only assume that you have been a very, very lucky bunny.
Sadly, it is a case of attitude as you say, unfortunately it is not my attitude that needs addressing, but the movers (and the RAFP) Maybe you have been lucky, maybe you have had the good mover on each of your trips. But I, and most people on this forum have not, hence all the bad press.
Kind regards
TSM
thanks for the comments, however........
1. Didn't blame the Movers for the bus (or the Plods)
2. Didn't blame the Movers for the u/s jet (or the Plods again)
3. CAA regs eh? since when has the RAF (or any military unit comes to that) worked to CAA rules?? and what happens when I divert in my E-3 or Nimrod into a Civvie base then? Do I and the rest of my crew immediately get arrested and locked up?? Come on, get a grip.
4. At the time of this Op, it was SOP for ALL aircrew to fly in flying suits, and as it happened, on the event in question, the answer is yes, some of us went straight into a briefing and were airborne within several hours of landing in Thumrait.
5. No, I don't (and not many do) carry a div' bag on AT trips. (Have you been on an Op? just how much kit do you take with you pray??)
6. No, they did NOT offload the jet and reload it the next day.
7. My attitude, hmmmm. Well, as most of my comments on this matter seem to be the 'norm' fgor AT, I can only assume that you have been a very, very lucky bunny.
Sadly, it is a case of attitude as you say, unfortunately it is not my attitude that needs addressing, but the movers (and the RAFP) Maybe you have been lucky, maybe you have had the good mover on each of your trips. But I, and most people on this forum have not, hence all the bad press.
Kind regards
TSM
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Never felt the need to post until now but I needed to vent my spleen on some of the useful, but predominantly unhelpful, drivel posted to date. I like to think of myself as someone that does give a toss about the pax I deal with so forgive me if I take some of the previous posts personally. The Mov organisation (Army and RAF) is a 'service provider' to the rest of the military, and predominantly the fighting arms. Personal experience shows me that the system for getting people and kit from A to B works well most of the time despite the enormous challenges often faced with the equipment we have and the places we go to. No civilian loggie organisation has the same scale of challenges placed upon it. Unfortunately the system falls down occasionally and our job as 'Movers' is to recover that system with the minimal inconvenience to our 'customers' (horrible word). Reading the last 5(!) pages, I'm frustrated to see that we don't always do as well as we should. Give the trade some slack unless you have something constructive and / or factual to say. I am a strong believer that alot of the 'problems' are caused by a lack of understanding on both sides. Be you aircrew or engineer, if you have a problem then please talk it through with your Movements colleagues (yes, colleagues) rather than just ranting in the bar later, you may get somewhere.
Nooky, you've just answered your earlier point about the USAF's policy to onload / offload at the drop of a hat; they throw more and more manpower at the problems until it works. We do not have that luxury. Where we lack in manpower though, the RAF makes up with adaptability which is why we can turnaround ac with a 3 man UKMAMS team and an ALM yet the USAF would require at least treble that (3 x ALM per C17, drivers that are vehicle specific etc).
Lineslime, the GEs, SVCs and techies that I have worked with on the AT fleet have generally all been good blokes without big chips on their shoulders ('C130 Techie's' objective and fair posts are a good example) so what's happened to you? As you know, SOP for lowering the ramp on a Herc is to check the nosebay first; I have never seen anyone fail to do this properly, although it could conceivably (REMOTE possibility) happen. Rather than continuing the mudslinging (and ruining my good impression of Lineys), can I suggest that next time you plan to play with the nosewheel, you collar the Mov NCO and let him know first as a fail safe.
MightyGem, unless you can offer objective comment or factual examples please don't slag off an entire trade group based on a whimsical afterthought.
Cheers, rant over.
Nooky, you've just answered your earlier point about the USAF's policy to onload / offload at the drop of a hat; they throw more and more manpower at the problems until it works. We do not have that luxury. Where we lack in manpower though, the RAF makes up with adaptability which is why we can turnaround ac with a 3 man UKMAMS team and an ALM yet the USAF would require at least treble that (3 x ALM per C17, drivers that are vehicle specific etc).
Lineslime, the GEs, SVCs and techies that I have worked with on the AT fleet have generally all been good blokes without big chips on their shoulders ('C130 Techie's' objective and fair posts are a good example) so what's happened to you? As you know, SOP for lowering the ramp on a Herc is to check the nosebay first; I have never seen anyone fail to do this properly, although it could conceivably (REMOTE possibility) happen. Rather than continuing the mudslinging (and ruining my good impression of Lineys), can I suggest that next time you plan to play with the nosewheel, you collar the Mov NCO and let him know first as a fail safe.
MightyGem, unless you can offer objective comment or factual examples please don't slag off an entire trade group based on a whimsical afterthought.
Cheers, rant over.
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Muppet Show,
A very fair and reasonable post I would say. A rather refreshing change from the usual cr@p that is posted when Mover Bashing Season comes along.
Regards to all,
E5
A very fair and reasonable post I would say. A rather refreshing change from the usual cr@p that is posted when Mover Bashing Season comes along.
Regards to all,
E5
Muppet Show
A well written reply, BUT I can't agree with your point about the "remote" possibility of the ramp being grounded whilst someone is in the nose wheel bay. It HAS happened on numerous occasions, not every occasion, but more than can be attributed to a genuine mistake. Sadly it is more to do with the rush rush rush syndrome.
2P
A well written reply, BUT I can't agree with your point about the "remote" possibility of the ramp being grounded whilst someone is in the nose wheel bay. It HAS happened on numerous occasions, not every occasion, but more than can be attributed to a genuine mistake. Sadly it is more to do with the rush rush rush syndrome.
2P
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Muppet show
Your bit about our drivers being vehicle specific isnt quite right at Mildenhall we dont have specific drivers we do the complete job, you must have dealt with our colonial friends probably at Ramstein. We have had them on Mildenhall and they do just drive or whatever they are set to do and just that so they do end up with a lot of people to do one aircraft where as at mildenhall we have a 4 man crew usually.
The USAF do seem to fly with an augmented crew on most of there flights as they can fly/operate for that bit longer with the extra crew or maybe because they are picking up some slightly out of the ordinary/ugly cargo.
I was not trying to offend or condemn the RAF movers and I hope I didn't come across that way as I have not really had any experience of working with them. I was just trying to point out how this mover worked and try to show how I thought every mover worked (probably badly)and your post has proved that we do all work in a very similar way and likewise we have some good movers and some that aren't.
Your bit about our drivers being vehicle specific isnt quite right at Mildenhall we dont have specific drivers we do the complete job, you must have dealt with our colonial friends probably at Ramstein. We have had them on Mildenhall and they do just drive or whatever they are set to do and just that so they do end up with a lot of people to do one aircraft where as at mildenhall we have a 4 man crew usually.
The USAF do seem to fly with an augmented crew on most of there flights as they can fly/operate for that bit longer with the extra crew or maybe because they are picking up some slightly out of the ordinary/ugly cargo.
I was not trying to offend or condemn the RAF movers and I hope I didn't come across that way as I have not really had any experience of working with them. I was just trying to point out how this mover worked and try to show how I thought every mover worked (probably badly)and your post has proved that we do all work in a very similar way and likewise we have some good movers and some that aren't.
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so these professional movers? like the one currently in bahrain who is sat nicely on a thousand a month rates, personal landrover discovery, working in civvies and having a right old laugh... oh and not to mention the stupid amount of money he is making on the side every time beer is shipped out of there to 'other places'...but only a dollar a crate...hmmm let me see, 1500 crates+ a week......
The person that you mentioned is one of the best overseas based RAFLO'S and I am sure in your time you have purchased beer from him when all other suppliers have been closed.
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muppet show - dont mean any offence but i dont think you have a complete grasp on what is actually happening out there with regards to the service that is given by some of the movers.
let me start though by saying that there are of course some very good people within the trade. these tend to be the more senior types, ie. the w/o, f/sgt and to some degree the sgts. i tend to get a very good service from these people, they tend to show a lot of pride in their work. i do however hold them partly responsible for those that do cause problems which in my experience has been the more junior types. i dont think that there is always the guidance given that should be towards those that are relatively new to the job. i extend this to include the actions of the officers who i have, on the whole, found to be mostly pretty ineffective. this isnt always their fault, inexperience is often a major issue.
as for the actual problems that come up, well where to start. on my last basrah det we encountered some sort of issue with the movers on pretty much every trip. we werent always delayed and loads werent always damaged, though this was down to the fact that the loadies were sharp enough to pre-empt the problems or fix them as they came up. the problems were things like pallets being 1000kg out in weight (it hadnt been weighed and only the loadies experience was there to tell us that the pallet definately looked wrong), wheeled loads not being checked weighed to determine the axle weights and so the distribution of the load, movers unable to tell us whether a load was in pounds or kg, inability to build a stack correctly, and one of my favourites, removing the nose wheel chox so that it could be used to facilitate the loading of a pallet with a set of forks.
now you said that we, as aircrew, should take this up with the movers concerned and i agree with you. i have tried to do just this. on doing a walk around i noticed the movers loading a pallet on the back without using the stool. i pointed out that this didnt look quite right. i was told "thanks sir but can you let us do our job" fair enough i thought, they probably know better than i. i did however mention this to my loady when he returned from ops. he was shocked and mightily pissed off that they were blatantly ignoring the rules. i had tried to point out something to these movers which i thought to be wrong and was met with an aggresive attitude. this, or feigning indifference is often the result of pointing out something that you are not happy with. all of these incidents as well as some others were pointed out to samo. the response was that the movers are inexperienced in both working in an operational theatre and working with the herc. that did not sit well as much of an excuse but i understood his situation, the guy didnt have much to work with.
i am sorry but my overall impression of the movers is that they are often poor at their job and that the cases of poor judgement are not isolated. like i said earlier you do come across some great guys who are fantastic but they are unfortunately in the minority.
let me start though by saying that there are of course some very good people within the trade. these tend to be the more senior types, ie. the w/o, f/sgt and to some degree the sgts. i tend to get a very good service from these people, they tend to show a lot of pride in their work. i do however hold them partly responsible for those that do cause problems which in my experience has been the more junior types. i dont think that there is always the guidance given that should be towards those that are relatively new to the job. i extend this to include the actions of the officers who i have, on the whole, found to be mostly pretty ineffective. this isnt always their fault, inexperience is often a major issue.
as for the actual problems that come up, well where to start. on my last basrah det we encountered some sort of issue with the movers on pretty much every trip. we werent always delayed and loads werent always damaged, though this was down to the fact that the loadies were sharp enough to pre-empt the problems or fix them as they came up. the problems were things like pallets being 1000kg out in weight (it hadnt been weighed and only the loadies experience was there to tell us that the pallet definately looked wrong), wheeled loads not being checked weighed to determine the axle weights and so the distribution of the load, movers unable to tell us whether a load was in pounds or kg, inability to build a stack correctly, and one of my favourites, removing the nose wheel chox so that it could be used to facilitate the loading of a pallet with a set of forks.
now you said that we, as aircrew, should take this up with the movers concerned and i agree with you. i have tried to do just this. on doing a walk around i noticed the movers loading a pallet on the back without using the stool. i pointed out that this didnt look quite right. i was told "thanks sir but can you let us do our job" fair enough i thought, they probably know better than i. i did however mention this to my loady when he returned from ops. he was shocked and mightily pissed off that they were blatantly ignoring the rules. i had tried to point out something to these movers which i thought to be wrong and was met with an aggresive attitude. this, or feigning indifference is often the result of pointing out something that you are not happy with. all of these incidents as well as some others were pointed out to samo. the response was that the movers are inexperienced in both working in an operational theatre and working with the herc. that did not sit well as much of an excuse but i understood his situation, the guy didnt have much to work with.
i am sorry but my overall impression of the movers is that they are often poor at their job and that the cases of poor judgement are not isolated. like i said earlier you do come across some great guys who are fantastic but they are unfortunately in the minority.
Last edited by juliet; 28th Apr 2005 at 10:34.
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Muppet show
If you call a brief glance from the ramp, along the centre line of the a/c, towards the nose bay I suggest you think again. It just so happens thet the black round tyre shaped things do a good job of hiding a techies legs whilst in the nose bay, so a good visual from the front is probably a good idea. The only reason the techie is in ther in the first place is to make sure the a/c is earthed to ground, and to insert the nose leg pin. I mean it would be such a shame if some poor litte impatient mover got a belt of static wigglies or the nose leg collapsed. Just remember we are trying to make the a/c safe, not leave the shape of our skulls on the airframe. Besides it is you that is operating the ramp so therefore should it not be you who makes sure it is safe to do so?
I remember the teachings of a wise old chief, the most dangerous thing on a herc isn't the engines or crew but the movers.
If you call a brief glance from the ramp, along the centre line of the a/c, towards the nose bay I suggest you think again. It just so happens thet the black round tyre shaped things do a good job of hiding a techies legs whilst in the nose bay, so a good visual from the front is probably a good idea. The only reason the techie is in ther in the first place is to make sure the a/c is earthed to ground, and to insert the nose leg pin. I mean it would be such a shame if some poor litte impatient mover got a belt of static wigglies or the nose leg collapsed. Just remember we are trying to make the a/c safe, not leave the shape of our skulls on the airframe. Besides it is you that is operating the ramp so therefore should it not be you who makes sure it is safe to do so?
I remember the teachings of a wise old chief, the most dangerous thing on a herc isn't the engines or crew but the movers.
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wonder if it was the same old wise C/T that walked in front a a vehicle being marshalled toward a Tristar...
something fell from the deck and narrowly missed said techie...pity...!!! would have taught a VALUABLE LESSON....!!!
you may heaps of beer tokens every month but still lack common sense !! sometimes !!
or maybe the JT that dropped his toolbox thru the floor on a Herc, covered it u using black nasty then rubbed foot over it to make it look old... !!!
something fell from the deck and narrowly missed said techie...pity...!!! would have taught a VALUABLE LESSON....!!!
you may heaps of beer tokens every month but still lack common sense !! sometimes !!
or maybe the JT that dropped his toolbox thru the floor on a Herc, covered it u using black nasty then rubbed foot over it to make it look old... !!!
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How the hell did something fall from the vehicle? Was it not secured properly or was the vehicle overloaded? It probably wasn't the same chief.
Ah the subject of common sense, badly missing from one individual who decided it would be clever to drive behind a herc mid 4 engine high power ground run. One talking to later he realised it would probably be better to go the long way round rather than lose the load, and any other loose items, to the prop wash.
Ah the subject of common sense, badly missing from one individual who decided it would be clever to drive behind a herc mid 4 engine high power ground run. One talking to later he realised it would probably be better to go the long way round rather than lose the load, and any other loose items, to the prop wash.
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Lineslime, I wasn't having a go. I agree with your point entirely and in MY experience the lads do check properly. I accept that this may not happen every time but you have an equal responsibility for your own safety by making sure that people know when you go somewhere dangerous. No need to get defensive, as I said before you guys do a good job with the same limited resources as movers. Can we close this topic of nosewheels now please!
On a more serious note Juliet, your examples are sobering. SAMO BSR clearly knows the situation best and has not tried to bulls*it you there. Remember that the movers in BSR now are on an OOA and may have been working at a fast jet unit MSF, Odiham or Northolt for the last few years and not touched a Herc in that time; this doesn't mean they are not good at their trade, but that their C130 knowledge is not going to be the same as a LYE mover. What if your C130 Eng Det in BSR was manned by techies from Kinloss? (not a dig at Techies Limeslime!) Remember that movers are expected to handle multiple ac types (C130J and K, VC10, TriStar x 3 varients, C17, AN124, B747 etc ad nauseam) and try to maintain familiarity / currency on each. An ALM on the ther hand can concentrate on his specific ac type and is often a useful asset to a less experienced team. I am not in a position to make excuses, nor do I intend to; however, it is always worth retaining some perspective. Thanks for presenting your points in a balanced manner, it makes a change!
MS
On a more serious note Juliet, your examples are sobering. SAMO BSR clearly knows the situation best and has not tried to bulls*it you there. Remember that the movers in BSR now are on an OOA and may have been working at a fast jet unit MSF, Odiham or Northolt for the last few years and not touched a Herc in that time; this doesn't mean they are not good at their trade, but that their C130 knowledge is not going to be the same as a LYE mover. What if your C130 Eng Det in BSR was manned by techies from Kinloss? (not a dig at Techies Limeslime!) Remember that movers are expected to handle multiple ac types (C130J and K, VC10, TriStar x 3 varients, C17, AN124, B747 etc ad nauseam) and try to maintain familiarity / currency on each. An ALM on the ther hand can concentrate on his specific ac type and is often a useful asset to a less experienced team. I am not in a position to make excuses, nor do I intend to; however, it is always worth retaining some perspective. Thanks for presenting your points in a balanced manner, it makes a change!
MS
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If the herc det was manned by thechies from kinloss (heaven forbid) then they would be expected to do at least the comp course, and then come back for a refresher before they go. Of course there will have to be SNCO's and JNCO's who hold the relevant trade Q's and up to date auth's due to the nature of the job. I think the majority of people rotating out to 1312, on the herc side, are now being plucked from lyneham rather than the four corners of the RAF.
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Utter Muppet,
you stated:
Personal experience shows me that the system for getting people and kit from A to B works well most of the time despite the enormous challenges often faced with the equipment we have and the places we go to. No civilian loggie organisation has the same scale of challenges placed upon it.
I bet the transport manager for Tesco, Sainsbury, Asda, B&Q, Safeway, Morrisons, Comet........etc etc disagree.
I must admit though the loggie organization managed to airfreight us a whole lorry load of Tornado spares to a remote US base in just 36 hours. Shame we fly a 4 engine heavy!!! Got some very hacked off Tonka guys calling from Goose try to get some broken jets home. We spent the whole exercise flying at 50% capability cause the spares we needed were "stuck in the system".
The civilian loggies don't have the same scale of challenges cause they sorted them out 50 years ago!!!
you stated:
Personal experience shows me that the system for getting people and kit from A to B works well most of the time despite the enormous challenges often faced with the equipment we have and the places we go to. No civilian loggie organisation has the same scale of challenges placed upon it.
I bet the transport manager for Tesco, Sainsbury, Asda, B&Q, Safeway, Morrisons, Comet........etc etc disagree.
I must admit though the loggie organization managed to airfreight us a whole lorry load of Tornado spares to a remote US base in just 36 hours. Shame we fly a 4 engine heavy!!! Got some very hacked off Tonka guys calling from Goose try to get some broken jets home. We spent the whole exercise flying at 50% capability cause the spares we needed were "stuck in the system".
The civilian loggies don't have the same scale of challenges cause they sorted them out 50 years ago!!!
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muppet show - i mentioned inexperience and the fact that i recognised that it contributed to the service. however, i dont think that any of my examples could be explained away by saying that the movers were simply not used to loading a herc. i believe that they were all examples of common sense not being used. whether you are used to working with hercs or have come from a fast jet base, you should still be able to provide a correct weight of the load to the crew. i would also have hoped that even a mover that has been in an office job would know not to remove the chox from the wheels of an aircraft.
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Lineslime..
it was the door frame protector for the left side of the door as you look out .... it was in the process of being fitted to the frame when it "slipped" from the grasp of the person fitting it...
on topic of Q personnel..i had similar experience on det in Aviano...dont recall any of the guys there being Q'd on C130...thank heavens for GE's... esp when i had to load pallets and needed the chox postioning correctly to ensure no damage to nose bay..
it was the door frame protector for the left side of the door as you look out .... it was in the process of being fitted to the frame when it "slipped" from the grasp of the person fitting it...
on topic of Q personnel..i had similar experience on det in Aviano...dont recall any of the guys there being Q'd on C130...thank heavens for GE's... esp when i had to load pallets and needed the chox postioning correctly to ensure no damage to nose bay..