BALPA/GATCO Forum 2005 - The Safety of Public Transport Flights Outside CAS
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BALPA/GATCO Forum 2005 - The Safety of Public Transport Flights Outside CAS
This year's annual BALPA/GATCO Forum is being held at the Yew Lodge Hotel, Kegworth, near East Midlands Airport (M1 Junction 24) on May 5th.
The topic this year following on from GATCO's recent articles in its magazine Transmit is "The Safety of Public Transport Flights Outside Controlled Airspace" and is aimed to continue the debate on whether the airlines and therefore, the flying public are being misled into believing that Radar Advisory can provide the same level of safety as Radar Control, of whether the problem is more perceived than real and can be adequately addressed by improved participation by airspace users and new technologies.
Speakers will include an ATCO from Newcastle, one of the first civil LARS units and an airport served by several airlines whose routes take them into Class G, a senior Captain from British Midland, a representative from the CAA's Directorate of Airspace Policy and a representative from the CAA's Safety Regulation Group.
ETD is 1900L for 1930, there will be a complimentary buffet and a pay bar.
Come early to get a seat!!
The topic this year following on from GATCO's recent articles in its magazine Transmit is "The Safety of Public Transport Flights Outside Controlled Airspace" and is aimed to continue the debate on whether the airlines and therefore, the flying public are being misled into believing that Radar Advisory can provide the same level of safety as Radar Control, of whether the problem is more perceived than real and can be adequately addressed by improved participation by airspace users and new technologies.
Speakers will include an ATCO from Newcastle, one of the first civil LARS units and an airport served by several airlines whose routes take them into Class G, a senior Captain from British Midland, a representative from the CAA's Directorate of Airspace Policy and a representative from the CAA's Safety Regulation Group.
ETD is 1900L for 1930, there will be a complimentary buffet and a pay bar.
Come early to get a seat!!
Last edited by CAP670; 1st Apr 2005 at 08:02.
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Hopefully the MoD will have some sort of representation at this event? At least to highlight to Eastern Airways et al that routing directly through the Vale of York AIAA during daytime Mon-Fri; whilst legal, is profoundly unsafe.
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I was not really expecting a facetious reply but so be it. Of course I appreciate what the letter stand for but the rules of the air still apply to ALL users do they not? The passage will not be as safe as in controlled airspace but the inference was that as it would be unwise it was per se unsafe. Simple enough question I thought.
Damn it I was going to try not to comment and see what happens? I drink beer, peruse the site later in the evening and ping, I'm replying. Green Brain didn't look at your profile but the area is certainly not unsafe and I would argue that since London Mil took on the Penine Radar task, the lot of the CAT flying through the area has become safer. However, the problem is when you have CAT flying through the airspace that does not understand that they are off-route and what their responsibilities are under RAS. Yes the area can be "sporty" when working RAS through there on a busy day and no controller would suggest that CAT routeing through there routinely under RAS is a good idea. Unfortunately they do and will continue to do so. What the Lon Mil guys do is provide an excellent level of service to the best of their ability in a difficult area. But certainly not an unsafe area. If it was the MoD would never let its baby pilots fly in it!
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I feel it's high time we started cordoning off some airspace for use as Military Training Areas - virtually every other country in the world does it. It would solve the deconfliction issues.
Plus it's pretty tricky for a formation engaged in a tailchase or a practice engagement to look out for regional turboprops pottering round through class G, rules of the air or not.
...just my £0.02 worth.
16B
Plus it's pretty tricky for a formation engaged in a tailchase or a practice engagement to look out for regional turboprops pottering round through class G, rules of the air or not.
...just my £0.02 worth.
16B
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As long as you lot don't understand that MIL flying can be done in a TSA within CAS, you are gonna get CAT flights messing up your training. (With TSAs, you can tell them to b**** off)
But, since glass G seems to be somewhat of a holy grale for the MIL guys on your little island, you will probably never get to try it......
SES anyone?
But, since glass G seems to be somewhat of a holy grale for the MIL guys on your little island, you will probably never get to try it......
SES anyone?
With GA outnumbering CAT as the majority airspace user in the UK to a considerable degree, without even taking military flights into account there is a clear, unambiguous need for Class G.
Perhaps things are different in Scandiwegia, M609?
If you don't like it, dear people-tube operators, then stick to airports with direct access to your beloved Class A airspace - don't just bleat that your new route into Little Piddle on the Gusset aerodrome can't provide you with Radar Control throughout.
Perhaps things are different in Scandiwegia, M609?
If you don't like it, dear people-tube operators, then stick to airports with direct access to your beloved Class A airspace - don't just bleat that your new route into Little Piddle on the Gusset aerodrome can't provide you with Radar Control throughout.
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As I should have said if I'd engaged brain before hitting "submit" last time:
Given the level of traffic in the AIAA, it would be unwise to enter the area in an airliner during its busier periods because the airliner lacks the manouvrability of almost all the other users. Further, in such busy airspace it might be physically impossible to maintain the separation that airliners require. Put simply: it's not that the airspace is inherently unsafe, it's just that we don't have the right kit to fly in it.
Given the level of traffic in the AIAA, it would be unwise to enter the area in an airliner during its busier periods because the airliner lacks the manouvrability of almost all the other users. Further, in such busy airspace it might be physically impossible to maintain the separation that airliners require. Put simply: it's not that the airspace is inherently unsafe, it's just that we don't have the right kit to fly in it.
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8 F-16s
5 F-3s
4 Super Etendards
2 Falcons
4 GR4s
versus 1x Jetstream who declined an offer to turn away from the 4v4 DCA/OCA merge point and flew through it.
Medium Scale multi national exercise NOTAM'd over borders area last week.
Does this companies underwriters know they are prepared to accept such low standards of Airmanship and common sense to cut the corner off the scottish TMA with a flimsy RIS, VFR in class G?
Suspect not.
Do the passengers know? A look at my tapes might put a few off. AND, I can't believe his newly fitted TCAS didn't go mental given the (my) geometry, never mind the 7 other fighters within 8nm.
But whose fault will it be when one ends up in the sea and me and my directional consultant get new ties?
Ray.
5 F-3s
4 Super Etendards
2 Falcons
4 GR4s
versus 1x Jetstream who declined an offer to turn away from the 4v4 DCA/OCA merge point and flew through it.
Medium Scale multi national exercise NOTAM'd over borders area last week.
Does this companies underwriters know they are prepared to accept such low standards of Airmanship and common sense to cut the corner off the scottish TMA with a flimsy RIS, VFR in class G?
Suspect not.
Do the passengers know? A look at my tapes might put a few off. AND, I can't believe his newly fitted TCAS didn't go mental given the (my) geometry, never mind the 7 other fighters within 8nm.
But whose fault will it be when one ends up in the sea and me and my directional consultant get new ties?
Ray.
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Sorry about the c**k up in originally omitting the date, chaps.
As regards the MoD, there has been an indication of 'bulk' attendance (presumably this relates to numbers rather than collar/bust sizes...) from DASC (the Defence Aviation Safety Centre - to quote "an established tri-Service policy, regulation and auditing body within MoD Central Staffs that acts as the executive arm of the Defence Aviation Safety Board and is the MoD focus for pan-Defence Aviation Safety issues ").
Hopefully, this will provide for a military viewpoint.
That date again = 5th May.
As regards the MoD, there has been an indication of 'bulk' attendance (presumably this relates to numbers rather than collar/bust sizes...) from DASC (the Defence Aviation Safety Centre - to quote "an established tri-Service policy, regulation and auditing body within MoD Central Staffs that acts as the executive arm of the Defence Aviation Safety Board and is the MoD focus for pan-Defence Aviation Safety issues ").
Hopefully, this will provide for a military viewpoint.
That date again = 5th May.
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16 blades
I think you have a dedicated area called the HRA, open every PM from 1500-2300 Mon-Thu. Given the size of HM's aviation department you could probably all go at once and not bump into each other!
The UK has a great deal of dedicated Restricted areas, Danger areas, Notam'd areas all active on a daily basis making commercial operations a pain in the butt. I would like to say that the military are cooperative in the use of this airspace when it is known to be empty but I have found that not to be the case, in fact completely opposite and the standard of military controllers is often less than good.
I think you have a dedicated area called the HRA, open every PM from 1500-2300 Mon-Thu. Given the size of HM's aviation department you could probably all go at once and not bump into each other!
The UK has a great deal of dedicated Restricted areas, Danger areas, Notam'd areas all active on a daily basis making commercial operations a pain in the butt. I would like to say that the military are cooperative in the use of this airspace when it is known to be empty but I have found that not to be the case, in fact completely opposite and the standard of military controllers is often less than good.