Terms of Service
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Terms of Service
If you are one of those people who is only going to add whiney "we don't get flying pay so why should you" comments don't bother! This is my whinge:-
As most of you will know the point at which RAF aircrew now get flying pay has change. In the past it was "72 weeks after the start of flying training" and now it is "at the start of OCU".
My problem is thus:
I have been shafted with the latter option. However, the initial terms of service I signed stated the first option.... Do I have a leg to stand on if I point this out to PMA?
Secondly, as FJ training is longer (on average) than both Helo and Multi training your aircrew peers at IOT will be getting paid more, and faster, if you get FJ and they get Helos or Mults
Thirdly, those who just made the 72-week cut off point will be getting more money on the front line than other crews who did not make it, but who are still doing the same job!
PF
As most of you will know the point at which RAF aircrew now get flying pay has change. In the past it was "72 weeks after the start of flying training" and now it is "at the start of OCU".
My problem is thus:
I have been shafted with the latter option. However, the initial terms of service I signed stated the first option.... Do I have a leg to stand on if I point this out to PMA?
Secondly, as FJ training is longer (on average) than both Helo and Multi training your aircrew peers at IOT will be getting paid more, and faster, if you get FJ and they get Helos or Mults
Thirdly, those who just made the 72-week cut off point will be getting more money on the front line than other crews who did not make it, but who are still doing the same job!
PF
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Doesn't seem fair, does it! I think you might have a case. Try it, what have you got to lose?
They do often shift the goalposts with almost no comeback from us, so I'd go for it. I've done it in other areas and, whilst I didn't win, I did feel better that some PMA gnome (Pensions wallah, in my case) had to work a little bit harder to work out why and provide me with a plausible (he didn't) answer. I copied my letter to my MP (former Chancellor of Exchequer) who actually responded before the pensions people did!
Way ahead. Speak to your NCO i/c Allowances; explain your rationale; and get him/her on board. Then write to the appropriate AFPAA or PMA desk at Innsworth (Allowances will advise) asking for an explanation as to why you are in the psotion that you now find yourself.
Nothing ventured, nothing gained!
They do often shift the goalposts with almost no comeback from us, so I'd go for it. I've done it in other areas and, whilst I didn't win, I did feel better that some PMA gnome (Pensions wallah, in my case) had to work a little bit harder to work out why and provide me with a plausible (he didn't) answer. I copied my letter to my MP (former Chancellor of Exchequer) who actually responded before the pensions people did!
Way ahead. Speak to your NCO i/c Allowances; explain your rationale; and get him/her on board. Then write to the appropriate AFPAA or PMA desk at Innsworth (Allowances will advise) asking for an explanation as to why you are in the psotion that you now find yourself.
Nothing ventured, nothing gained!
Also, the justification was that moving the initial rate flying pay point freed up cash to pay for FRIs.
So, no more FRIs, when do abbos get their flying pay at 72 weeks again.....?
So, no more FRIs, when do abbos get their flying pay at 72 weeks again.....?
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The rules for when flying pay starts have changed regularly in the last 15 years or so. In the early 90's when long holds were common in between bits of flying training the paymasters realised the rules had changed so it was 72 weeks of flying training instead of 72 weeks from the start of flying training. As a result a number of people who had already started receiving flying pay had it stopped!
I was one of the ones affected, but after appealling I had it reinstated. The reason - my terms of service were the ones in force when I joined in 1987, and predated the rule change. Sounds pretty much the same as the position you're in.
It took 14months of arguments, but resulted in a nice lump sum back payment and I started middle rate etc earlier than I otherwise would. Worth the effort.
I was one of the ones affected, but after appealling I had it reinstated. The reason - my terms of service were the ones in force when I joined in 1987, and predated the rule change. Sounds pretty much the same as the position you're in.
It took 14months of arguments, but resulted in a nice lump sum back payment and I started middle rate etc earlier than I otherwise would. Worth the effort.
Come to think of it, they recently changed the rules regarding the validity of a Scottish 4 year degree to promotion. Mates from my UAS days snuck in and were still promoted at the accelerated rate because that was the terms they agreed to when they accepted sponsorship, so I should imagine the same rules apply. There must be a few who've been on UAS bursaries for years and are now being bitten by this. Go see your Chief Clerks!
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Suggesting Innsworth are prone to error? They cost me a year of Middle Rate Flying Pay and I had to argue to even get any at all. So, the moral is read up and then start writing letters.
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If you were going to argue that people doing the same job get different pay then what about all the Fg Off going through training / OCUs / Frontline (first tourists) that are getting paid a Fg Off salary whilst their colleagues of equal :-$ ability are getting paid more. Sometimes a lot more. And don’t even try to start the argument about University, I’m yet to see proof of anyone’s degree helping him/her in flying more than someone without. Apart from the odd bit of ground school cramming. There are so many degrees in basket weaving in this airforce its untrue!
Performance related pay anyone……. Sorry bloggs 120 @ 12 guess that’s 50quid off this month. Sounds like the only fair way to go if we’re starting this argument.
On a slightly more supportive note.
I fully agree with the re instatement of flying pay after 72wks on course. It’s the only way to make it fair across the roles. Put the pressure on, I reckon you’re in with a chance no matter how long it takes. + If you’re in the training you’ve probably got some time on your hands between courses. Nothing better than argueing with blunties. Makes the hold flyby
Performance related pay anyone……. Sorry bloggs 120 @ 12 guess that’s 50quid off this month. Sounds like the only fair way to go if we’re starting this argument.
On a slightly more supportive note.
I fully agree with the re instatement of flying pay after 72wks on course. It’s the only way to make it fair across the roles. Put the pressure on, I reckon you’re in with a chance no matter how long it takes. + If you’re in the training you’ve probably got some time on your hands between courses. Nothing better than argueing with blunties. Makes the hold flyby
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Pink Flyer,
Think you've got an extremely good case which could well be resolved by a simple phone call as opposed to a stream of letters. 5F6B is spot on with his recollection of the Scottish 4 year degree case. Also the new pension is coming into service yet you cannot be forced onto it if it is not the one you signed up to when you joined.
If need be I'm sure a contract lawyer would wipe the floor with the RAF on this one.
I believe the initial bit of paper you sign to join up refers your terms of service to (something like?) PAM AIR xxx? Well worth checking the initial bit of paper you signed and the relevant PAM AIR (if you can get your hands on it.)
Please let us know how you get on.
S15
Think you've got an extremely good case which could well be resolved by a simple phone call as opposed to a stream of letters. 5F6B is spot on with his recollection of the Scottish 4 year degree case. Also the new pension is coming into service yet you cannot be forced onto it if it is not the one you signed up to when you joined.
If need be I'm sure a contract lawyer would wipe the floor with the RAF on this one.
I believe the initial bit of paper you sign to join up refers your terms of service to (something like?) PAM AIR xxx? Well worth checking the initial bit of paper you signed and the relevant PAM AIR (if you can get your hands on it.)
Please let us know how you get on.
S15
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H_E - "And don’t even try to start the argument about University, I’m yet to see proof of anyone’s degree helping him/her in flying more than someone without. Apart from the odd bit of ground school cramming. There are so many degrees in basket weaving in this airforce its untrue!"
Sounds fair enough, suggest only those whose choice of branch requires them to have a degree have a seniority award. However, this should be done on the basis of pay, not seniority. Everyone should have to learn the ropes as a Fg Off rather than become a Flt Lt before their experience and ability warrant it.
sw
Sounds fair enough, suggest only those whose choice of branch requires them to have a degree have a seniority award. However, this should be done on the basis of pay, not seniority. Everyone should have to learn the ropes as a Fg Off rather than become a Flt Lt before their experience and ability warrant it.
sw
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Safeware, wholeheartedly agree with you old chap.
'rant mode on'
As rank in generally looked upon as seniority/experience, I find it increasingly annoying when I have to explain to Flt Lts the difference between NONPAS and PAS for instance. And trust me my knowledge is purely through osmosis.
5 1/2yrs to Flt Lt…. Oh no sorry I fully see the argument that the UAS system is equal in experience/exposure to real time in. How stupid of me.
'rant mode off'
'rant mode on'
As rank in generally looked upon as seniority/experience, I find it increasingly annoying when I have to explain to Flt Lts the difference between NONPAS and PAS for instance. And trust me my knowledge is purely through osmosis.
5 1/2yrs to Flt Lt…. Oh no sorry I fully see the argument that the UAS system is equal in experience/exposure to real time in. How stupid of me.
'rant mode off'
Guy W
I was also in that era and received a letter saying that my pay was going to change and could I please fill in the attached form.
Form went in bin, pay never changed - marvellous!
2P
PS: H_E, what IS the difference between NONPAS and PAS??
I was also in that era and received a letter saying that my pay was going to change and could I please fill in the attached form.
Form went in bin, pay never changed - marvellous!
2P
PS: H_E, what IS the difference between NONPAS and PAS??
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Wind it in High E type, you must have finally found the spell checker as your post is devoid of its usual errors
Only joking mate, you make such a good Fg Off, and are very useful for taking all the sh!t away from us more senior and experienced types. The place would not be the same without you and your angry little sidekick.
All the best matey
PS your PFL was awful.......I am gonna speak to the boss and dock your flying pay. Now be better.
Only joking mate, you make such a good Fg Off, and are very useful for taking all the sh!t away from us more senior and experienced types. The place would not be the same without you and your angry little sidekick.
All the best matey
PS your PFL was awful.......I am gonna speak to the boss and dock your flying pay. Now be better.
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big picture
Bombs on target on time and all… saved the jet. Big picture and all that. Careful people might think you’re a natural born trimmer spouting off like that and send you for a spot of war dodging.
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standby for incoming.
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standby for incoming.
TAC Int Bloke
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If only you had worked harder at school!
- willy waving about education is pointless even as banter - can the individual do the job?
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Pink Flyer,
I think you have a genuine point old bot, but as they say sh1t happens.
I hate to pour salt in your wounds, but did you know that the FCs and ATs on E-3s get flying pay from day one of training??
Oh dear, I fear some serious smelly stuff coming my way!
Kind regards
TSM
I think you have a genuine point old bot, but as they say sh1t happens.
I hate to pour salt in your wounds, but did you know that the FCs and ATs on E-3s get flying pay from day one of training??
Oh dear, I fear some serious smelly stuff coming my way!
Kind regards
TSM
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Not really used to defending the boys and girls on E-3s (purely jealousy!), but when they start training they are at an OCU aren't they? So the rules are correctly applied - FP at the start of OCU.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
PinkFlyrer,
Rules can change so my 'facts' may be out of date. When my nav course started the RAF had just stopped paying flying instructional pay. If you had been in receipt of FIP then the pay continued.
Five of my studes were chopped pilots who had all been in receipt of FIP. They continued to get it.
Two of my studes had yet to enter RAF Flying training. They had however been in receipt of flying pay in the UAS. They got FIP.
Essentially if you are getting something or if your TOS promised something (bit like pension changes) you continue to get that benefit. It is also usually your call if you want to switch to new TOS ie the new pension arrangement might be better for you than the old one.
Rules can change so my 'facts' may be out of date. When my nav course started the RAF had just stopped paying flying instructional pay. If you had been in receipt of FIP then the pay continued.
Five of my studes were chopped pilots who had all been in receipt of FIP. They continued to get it.
Two of my studes had yet to enter RAF Flying training. They had however been in receipt of flying pay in the UAS. They got FIP.
Essentially if you are getting something or if your TOS promised something (bit like pension changes) you continue to get that benefit. It is also usually your call if you want to switch to new TOS ie the new pension arrangement might be better for you than the old one.
