Recruiting a problem
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Recruiting a problem
Problems Ahead ?
For a very long time the Armed Forces have enjoyed a bouyant recruiting market, where only niche careers ever had to be targetted.
We got there despite the best efforts of the press, politicians and bean counters always able to meet the targets and more than often have a rich crop of talent from which to select.
In the past 3-4 years we have begun to see a trend of alienation amongst young people towards the Armed Forces. There is no one reason to pick on (not even Telic) but surveys across the recruiting population (16-24) show a continuing decline in the attractiveness of Armed Forces careers.
In fact some of our surveys show that there is only a set pool of people to recruit from for all uniformed services (inlcuding Police, Customs etc)
The attractiveness and high availability of further and higher education see young people of the calibre we need leaving it late to make up their minds and the fashionable subjects (media studies and forensic science) hardly provide a firm basis for the Military Engineers of the future.
The problem here of course, is a shrinking market place coupled to shrinking budgets. Advertising costs increase by about 10% a year, defence budgets tend to decrease in real terms.
Additionally main stream Service thinking is that recruiting is a quiet backwater - quite the opposite approach of the commercial world - and it can be quite tough to get people to volunteer to appear in recruiting literature, let alone do the job.
What do we do?
How do we get our messages out?
How do we compete?
For a very long time the Armed Forces have enjoyed a bouyant recruiting market, where only niche careers ever had to be targetted.
We got there despite the best efforts of the press, politicians and bean counters always able to meet the targets and more than often have a rich crop of talent from which to select.
In the past 3-4 years we have begun to see a trend of alienation amongst young people towards the Armed Forces. There is no one reason to pick on (not even Telic) but surveys across the recruiting population (16-24) show a continuing decline in the attractiveness of Armed Forces careers.
In fact some of our surveys show that there is only a set pool of people to recruit from for all uniformed services (inlcuding Police, Customs etc)
The attractiveness and high availability of further and higher education see young people of the calibre we need leaving it late to make up their minds and the fashionable subjects (media studies and forensic science) hardly provide a firm basis for the Military Engineers of the future.
The problem here of course, is a shrinking market place coupled to shrinking budgets. Advertising costs increase by about 10% a year, defence budgets tend to decrease in real terms.
Additionally main stream Service thinking is that recruiting is a quiet backwater - quite the opposite approach of the commercial world - and it can be quite tough to get people to volunteer to appear in recruiting literature, let alone do the job.
What do we do?
How do we get our messages out?
How do we compete?
Are you f*****g serious?
Just look at the difference between the attraction the Service offered 20 years ago and the cr@p on offer today. If you can't afford to keep high quality people who are already in the Service, how on earth do you expect to attract new recruits?
Methinks the beancounters' chickens have come home to roost. Tough titty. We all told them so, but they wouldn't listen.
No-one who has been in the Service for less than about 15 years will EVER have known anything more than increasing mindless bull$hit and ever more CUTS.
And once upon a time, fun was allowed.
Just look at the difference between the attraction the Service offered 20 years ago and the cr@p on offer today. If you can't afford to keep high quality people who are already in the Service, how on earth do you expect to attract new recruits?
Methinks the beancounters' chickens have come home to roost. Tough titty. We all told them so, but they wouldn't listen.
No-one who has been in the Service for less than about 15 years will EVER have known anything more than increasing mindless bull$hit and ever more CUTS.
And once upon a time, fun was allowed.
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Well thanks BEAGS for the encouraging message.
Personally I think we do offer an interesting job, with good pay and reasonable conditions....wait 2,3,4..
I wouldn't still be in after 22 years if I didn't think so.
Come on, give a little more than the typical whinging b£$lsh@t that we normally get on this site.
Personally I think we do offer an interesting job, with good pay and reasonable conditions....wait 2,3,4..
I wouldn't still be in after 22 years if I didn't think so.
Come on, give a little more than the typical whinging b£$lsh@t that we normally get on this site.
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I suggest for aircrew you focus on the pure enjoyment of the flying that only the armed forces can offer. Even then you will have trouble retaining people with the current level of b******t on offer.
Show the flying off to the potential recruits - not the shiny videos of the reds but the cockpit views of air combat training, low level SAPs, aerobatics, weapon firing, helicopter operations, ASW operations, AWACS in action etc etc.
Then get Tony and his mates to put their money where their mouths are and come up with a financial package to make all the hardships worthwhile.
Only job satisfaction and money will solve your problems.
Show the flying off to the potential recruits - not the shiny videos of the reds but the cockpit views of air combat training, low level SAPs, aerobatics, weapon firing, helicopter operations, ASW operations, AWACS in action etc etc.
Then get Tony and his mates to put their money where their mouths are and come up with a financial package to make all the hardships worthwhile.
Only job satisfaction and money will solve your problems.
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SC
Here, here!
I spent a liquid night last week in a small pub in Lostwithiel (don't ask why), and amongst losing my brains with delightful locals there happened to be a gent & lady from the Navy and a current RAF FJ. Great night, and helped dispel much of the carping that we see on this site - and yes, they'd all (do) spent much time in the sand etc, etc. Back off Baldy; and before you say it, my brains weren't left in WIWOL or other nostalgia.
And retarded engineer (see next post), they (the three) would've been offended if you'd suggested that they weren't in an honoured profession; they had their issues, such as housing, pensions and all the rest, but they were bloody proud of what they were doing, enjoyed it, and were p***ed off with the general flak that some of this site attracts. Equally, they had their sensible eye on their futures, which could well be beyond their present Service careers. 'Twas ever thus, so what? Good luck to them.
Here, here!
I spent a liquid night last week in a small pub in Lostwithiel (don't ask why), and amongst losing my brains with delightful locals there happened to be a gent & lady from the Navy and a current RAF FJ. Great night, and helped dispel much of the carping that we see on this site - and yes, they'd all (do) spent much time in the sand etc, etc. Back off Baldy; and before you say it, my brains weren't left in WIWOL or other nostalgia.
And retarded engineer (see next post), they (the three) would've been offended if you'd suggested that they weren't in an honoured profession; they had their issues, such as housing, pensions and all the rest, but they were bloody proud of what they were doing, enjoyed it, and were p***ed off with the general flak that some of this site attracts. Equally, they had their sensible eye on their futures, which could well be beyond their present Service careers. 'Twas ever thus, so what? Good luck to them.
Last edited by jindabyne; 28th Feb 2005 at 21:06.
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Si Clik
It might be worth shifting your focus a bit and asking whether you would advise your children to join.
Having teenaged sons, I have been through this hoop quite recently. Trying to be objective, my advice was - get in, get the training, have some fun, get out.
The reasons for this - I remember the old gits saying "it's not the same as when I joined", and probably many of us have said the same at some point. Nevertheless, I believe many things are the same, such as the professionalism and humour.
However, I do not believe that there is the perception in the masses that we are defending the country anymore. The armed forces ares no longer considered to be an honourable profession, something that would make their parents proud. Operations that have been carried out in their life time will reinforce this impression (these are the post-malvinas generation). Kids today are also much more switched on than we were (well certainly me) and seem to understand the need for securing the future with pensions, getting in the housing market, the very areas that are either being eroded now or that service life was traditionally weak in. The housing market was a push factor for me.
Also the mindset of "job for life" has gone. The kids anticipate job hopping to get promoted and move onward and upward. Stability is less of an issue.
It's also possible that my boys have been winding me up. They have a Boarding school education as opposed to my London comprhensive 70's style (this excuses the grammer).
Regards
Retard
It might be worth shifting your focus a bit and asking whether you would advise your children to join.
Having teenaged sons, I have been through this hoop quite recently. Trying to be objective, my advice was - get in, get the training, have some fun, get out.
The reasons for this - I remember the old gits saying "it's not the same as when I joined", and probably many of us have said the same at some point. Nevertheless, I believe many things are the same, such as the professionalism and humour.
However, I do not believe that there is the perception in the masses that we are defending the country anymore. The armed forces ares no longer considered to be an honourable profession, something that would make their parents proud. Operations that have been carried out in their life time will reinforce this impression (these are the post-malvinas generation). Kids today are also much more switched on than we were (well certainly me) and seem to understand the need for securing the future with pensions, getting in the housing market, the very areas that are either being eroded now or that service life was traditionally weak in. The housing market was a push factor for me.
Also the mindset of "job for life" has gone. The kids anticipate job hopping to get promoted and move onward and upward. Stability is less of an issue.
It's also possible that my boys have been winding me up. They have a Boarding school education as opposed to my London comprhensive 70's style (this excuses the grammer).
Regards
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Might I suggest that retention is as big a problem as recruitment, and despite what some here are saying Beag's is spot on
Soddim says "Then get Tony and his mates to put their money where their mouths are and come up with a financial package to make all the hardships worthwhile."...... which for me sums it all up
We are at war with our "cousins" and a simple comparison with how they are treated, from compensation for families of those killed in action to the basic welfare packages shows why we ARE NOT INVESTORS IN PEOPLE...........AND NEVER WILL BE
Doing it on the cheap is no way to encourage the right sort of new blood..........but it is the right way for faceless counters of beans to get on
Eng, I have now done 30 years and I would sooner my two teenagers emptied bins than join the RAF in any shape or form.
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
Soddim says "Then get Tony and his mates to put their money where their mouths are and come up with a financial package to make all the hardships worthwhile."...... which for me sums it all up
We are at war with our "cousins" and a simple comparison with how they are treated, from compensation for families of those killed in action to the basic welfare packages shows why we ARE NOT INVESTORS IN PEOPLE...........AND NEVER WILL BE
Doing it on the cheap is no way to encourage the right sort of new blood..........but it is the right way for faceless counters of beans to get on
Eng, I have now done 30 years and I would sooner my two teenagers emptied bins than join the RAF in any shape or form.
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
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Having seen and worked with some of the dross coming out of trade training (O.K. not all are that bad) I don't think you aeroplane driving types would be too pleased to see them working on your beloved steeds. There seems to be a real lack of drive and enthusiasm for the job (in some cases ability), if this is all that want to join up then I don't hold much hope for the RAF, let alone the rest of the armed forces.
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All schools do nowadays is push people to go to uni. I was frowned upon because I initially wanted to go DE into the RAF.
As a result, they don't suggest other options to students, who are pretty oblivious and just assume that uni is they only option and the way ahead.
As a result, they don't suggest other options to students, who are pretty oblivious and just assume that uni is they only option and the way ahead.
Notwithstanding the unnecessary and irrelevantly abusive comments of some in this thread, I could list a whole catalogue of reasons why the RAF is not the attraction to the youngsters of today which it once was.
But Im not going to bother - because no-one would re-introduce them, citing the well-worn mantra...
"There's no money for that"
In 1977 a visiting P-staff person asked us all the same question even then when recruiting was suffering. He was strongly rebuffed by one captain who told him "If you can't tell us what's going to happen to us when the Tornado takes over from the Vulcan, how do you expect us to tell you what to tell potential recruits!" A round of applause - and the end of the meeting!
Sorry to be so unhelpful - but I suggest you look back 5, 10, 15 and 20 years and remember what we did then which the RAF doesn't do now. Everything from Air Displays to life in the Officers Mess.
But Im not going to bother - because no-one would re-introduce them, citing the well-worn mantra...
"There's no money for that"
In 1977 a visiting P-staff person asked us all the same question even then when recruiting was suffering. He was strongly rebuffed by one captain who told him "If you can't tell us what's going to happen to us when the Tornado takes over from the Vulcan, how do you expect us to tell you what to tell potential recruits!" A round of applause - and the end of the meeting!
Sorry to be so unhelpful - but I suggest you look back 5, 10, 15 and 20 years and remember what we did then which the RAF doesn't do now. Everything from Air Displays to life in the Officers Mess.
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Si Click
In general you see a socio-demographic trend away from the 'doing' side and towards the 'administering' side. I understand that there are more people administering the armed forces than there are doing the fighting (and administrators get paid more?). If this perception permeats society then no wonder 16-24s want to administer and not be at the sharp end.
Stories of 33 year-old civil servants setting up a quango and then posting themselves to head it for £250K pa do not help either.
I am afraid you have a problem to solve that can not be done at no-cost (unless you start sacking some administrators).
In general you see a socio-demographic trend away from the 'doing' side and towards the 'administering' side. I understand that there are more people administering the armed forces than there are doing the fighting (and administrators get paid more?). If this perception permeats society then no wonder 16-24s want to administer and not be at the sharp end.
Stories of 33 year-old civil servants setting up a quango and then posting themselves to head it for £250K pa do not help either.
I am afraid you have a problem to solve that can not be done at no-cost (unless you start sacking some administrators).
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BEagle
IF you are inferring that my post above was unnecessary and irrelevantly abusive, I can only assume that one is either a little delicate or over-reactive to overly blunt opinion. Either way, I note that you chose to ignore my observations - crudely offered maybe, but we all are occasionally grape-affected.
IF you are inferring that my post above was unnecessary and irrelevantly abusive, I can only assume that one is either a little delicate or over-reactive to overly blunt opinion. Either way, I note that you chose to ignore my observations - crudely offered maybe, but we all are occasionally grape-affected.
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Jind
I was not saying that your serving friends are not in an honoured profession, only stating the perception that the masses have of the armed forces today. I recall having drinks bought for me whilst I was travelling purely because I was serving in the military, and have been offered a bed in an old couples house because I could not make a train journey to Lossie due to missed connections and was going to be stuck in a train station for the night. The point that I was trying to make that the public then were the post WW2 generation, who viewed the military as guardians of the country/empire and were proud of people that served. I no longer see that as the case:
Beags quote - Just look at the difference between the attraction the Service offered 20 years ago and the cr@p on offer today
ABIW - Eng, I have now done 30 years and I would sooned my two teenagers emptied bins than join the RAF in any shape or form.
And this is the pro side of the argument from people that have served.
Since GW1, we have been involved in a variety of operations, few of which have had widespread public support such as was seen during the Falklands. This years university entry were 3 years old during GW1. Media attention in their lifetime has been centred on civilians that have been killed during operations, bullying in the armed forces,and the call to arms being generated by political desire not popular support. This is our public face.
ABIW - My sons are not joining up either. How many serving people do you know that were scaley brats. Why is it that this rich source of recruiting material drying up? These should be bankers for the recruiters. All of the arguments about conditions and retention that we hear apply to this part of the recruitment problem. The alienation is due to the poor public perception of life in the military and why the military exist. As Beags mentioned this has been degenerating for years, Si Clik will not find a quick fix because it will take a lot of money and effort to repair the long term damage.
I was not saying that your serving friends are not in an honoured profession, only stating the perception that the masses have of the armed forces today. I recall having drinks bought for me whilst I was travelling purely because I was serving in the military, and have been offered a bed in an old couples house because I could not make a train journey to Lossie due to missed connections and was going to be stuck in a train station for the night. The point that I was trying to make that the public then were the post WW2 generation, who viewed the military as guardians of the country/empire and were proud of people that served. I no longer see that as the case:
Beags quote - Just look at the difference between the attraction the Service offered 20 years ago and the cr@p on offer today
ABIW - Eng, I have now done 30 years and I would sooned my two teenagers emptied bins than join the RAF in any shape or form.
And this is the pro side of the argument from people that have served.
Since GW1, we have been involved in a variety of operations, few of which have had widespread public support such as was seen during the Falklands. This years university entry were 3 years old during GW1. Media attention in their lifetime has been centred on civilians that have been killed during operations, bullying in the armed forces,and the call to arms being generated by political desire not popular support. This is our public face.
ABIW - My sons are not joining up either. How many serving people do you know that were scaley brats. Why is it that this rich source of recruiting material drying up? These should be bankers for the recruiters. All of the arguments about conditions and retention that we hear apply to this part of the recruitment problem. The alienation is due to the poor public perception of life in the military and why the military exist. As Beags mentioned this has been degenerating for years, Si Clik will not find a quick fix because it will take a lot of money and effort to repair the long term damage.
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Si Clik
I agree with Soddim! All the adverts today focus on recruiting everyone but aircrew, when we should put all the focus on recruiting aircrew because it is the sexier side of the forces. The spin off from this will still be to recruit everybody else as the forces (RN) becomes more glamourous.
I didn't join the Navy because of pay or condition etc. It was purely for the flying and as I remember I didn't know what the pay was until I got to Dartmouth (Oh and at £8K per annum was a little disappointed...but I stayed).
I am also embarrased to say that 'TOPGUN' had a lot to do with it.
If you want to recruit the young you need to get into popular culture and make the forces attractive, not through pay and conditions but by making them believe that it is cool etc.
May I suggest that you get a very big chunk of money and make TOPGUN 2......I'd buy a ticket at the cinema!!!!!
Handyman
I agree with Soddim! All the adverts today focus on recruiting everyone but aircrew, when we should put all the focus on recruiting aircrew because it is the sexier side of the forces. The spin off from this will still be to recruit everybody else as the forces (RN) becomes more glamourous.
I didn't join the Navy because of pay or condition etc. It was purely for the flying and as I remember I didn't know what the pay was until I got to Dartmouth (Oh and at £8K per annum was a little disappointed...but I stayed).
I am also embarrased to say that 'TOPGUN' had a lot to do with it.
If you want to recruit the young you need to get into popular culture and make the forces attractive, not through pay and conditions but by making them believe that it is cool etc.
May I suggest that you get a very big chunk of money and make TOPGUN 2......I'd buy a ticket at the cinema!!!!!
Handyman
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eng
Thanks for that.
I accept, subjectively, that the RAF is not what it was some twenty years ago (I left in '88), and that there is a recruitment issue. I can only recount the views of those 'youngsters' (ground-pounders and aircrew) that I meet frequently who portray a quite different picture to that which you paint; and I have a scaley who, knowing of past and present Service lifestyle, would be only too happy to re-join - regrets departing after UAS, and he's now just too old.
That several offspring and many friends in various walks of civvy life do not see their lot as being fantastically advantageous over those in uniform seems to me to be a useful comparitor. I also have the impression that, aside from negative media perception and the rightful but over-emphasised coverage of minority behaviour in the Army, Joe Public still has a generally high regard for those in uniform; albeit with something less of your 'guardian/pride' notion.
I too look back and make critical comparison of then and now; but that's to be expected. Not exposed to 'then', those I meet seem highly content with their 'now'. I can only draw my opinion from what I hear; maybe that is a too narrow judgement?
That said, I strongly despise many of Hoon's cost-saving measures, particularly those that directly affect the individual and his/her family.
Thanks for that.
I accept, subjectively, that the RAF is not what it was some twenty years ago (I left in '88), and that there is a recruitment issue. I can only recount the views of those 'youngsters' (ground-pounders and aircrew) that I meet frequently who portray a quite different picture to that which you paint; and I have a scaley who, knowing of past and present Service lifestyle, would be only too happy to re-join - regrets departing after UAS, and he's now just too old.
That several offspring and many friends in various walks of civvy life do not see their lot as being fantastically advantageous over those in uniform seems to me to be a useful comparitor. I also have the impression that, aside from negative media perception and the rightful but over-emphasised coverage of minority behaviour in the Army, Joe Public still has a generally high regard for those in uniform; albeit with something less of your 'guardian/pride' notion.
I too look back and make critical comparison of then and now; but that's to be expected. Not exposed to 'then', those I meet seem highly content with their 'now'. I can only draw my opinion from what I hear; maybe that is a too narrow judgement?
That said, I strongly despise many of Hoon's cost-saving measures, particularly those that directly affect the individual and his/her family.
handyman,
Do we REALLY need to focus on aircrew, is there any shortage of hopefuls applying to fly?
Other branches and trades seem to be the problem from reading this forum.
BTW, has anyone seen the new RAF recruiting ad? I saw it on Sky at the weekend, it features a Typhoon flying over various ground features each one of which is a representation of a particular ground branch with a snappy R/T voice over. It seemed as punchy as some of the more recent Army and RN ads and neatly combined the flying and non flying side. Even though the ad closed with the line “You don’t have to be a pilot to join the RAF” it did feature some pretty impressive Typhoon sequences from inside and outside the cockpit.
I also agree on your point re pay, I pitched up not knowing what on earth I was going to get paid, it just didn’t enter my head at the time, I wanted to fly, they gave me the chance, I was made up and that was all there was too it.
Do we REALLY need to focus on aircrew, is there any shortage of hopefuls applying to fly?
Other branches and trades seem to be the problem from reading this forum.
BTW, has anyone seen the new RAF recruiting ad? I saw it on Sky at the weekend, it features a Typhoon flying over various ground features each one of which is a representation of a particular ground branch with a snappy R/T voice over. It seemed as punchy as some of the more recent Army and RN ads and neatly combined the flying and non flying side. Even though the ad closed with the line “You don’t have to be a pilot to join the RAF” it did feature some pretty impressive Typhoon sequences from inside and outside the cockpit.
I also agree on your point re pay, I pitched up not knowing what on earth I was going to get paid, it just didn’t enter my head at the time, I wanted to fly, they gave me the chance, I was made up and that was all there was too it.
Been in 30 years, not quite the same as the 70's but in the main still enjoy the job. Finances I don't think about, trust me I want to weep when I hear how much a civil Air Trafficer gets paid. My son is joining up shortly and I have no qualms in supporting him. My only advice is to watch out for the wanabee JO's who see themselves going further based on the perceived lack of competition. They would not have lasted 2 weeks in the 70's. I still have a good job, I enjoy it, and am proud to continue to do it well.
Recruitment a problem? My son has been trying to get into the RAF for over a year now as a firefighter; there are no places available. He's hanging on still but I sense his enthusiasm waning as he awaits the call.
Only 5 trades are required on the RAF Careers website yet we are actively encouraging youngsters, via the new TV advert, to sign up then sit and wait for ages until a place becomes available at Halton.
Remember: 'You don't have to be a pilot to fly in the RAF' .
Only 5 trades are required on the RAF Careers website yet we are actively encouraging youngsters, via the new TV advert, to sign up then sit and wait for ages until a place becomes available at Halton.
Remember: 'You don't have to be a pilot to fly in the RAF' .
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trouble is dsat man a lot of fire and rescue has been tendered out to local authorities and private sector,theres only a handfull of bases with fulltime raf firefighters,it seems to be deadmans shoes at the moment,he should try the regiment,lots of fresh air,travel, toys to play with and of corse all the wrafs love an ape
...ahhh the good old days,id go back tommorow..lol..good luck for your son mate.
...ahhh the good old days,id go back tommorow..lol..good luck for your son mate.
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"In days of old when the RAF was bold
and Canberras ruled the skies . . .
Must say I agree with Beag's attitude, the Air Force of my day would, seemingly, not be allowed to happen in these "enlightened" times - you don't even get squadron Landrovers these days!
Two things in my opinion.
Firstly, the youngsters these days are not as prepared to put up with privations and discipline as they were when I joined ("war baby" era). Just about everybody in those times had a father or uncle who had served thus giving some sort of continuity of expectation.
Secondly, I reckon the perception amongst the 'yoof' is that the RAF is now just another a big corporation with an overly strict dress code, a class ridden structure and low financial rewards.
I recall such things as the London/New York Air Race. Would such an event be allowed these days? Could the RAF even do it now?
Also, the famous London/Sydney Car Rally. Very high publicity event. RAF entered a car which was supported down route by a Herc, mil type planning and strategically place fuel/spares dumps, the works in fact. Could that happen in these times? I don't think so.
and Canberras ruled the skies . . .
Must say I agree with Beag's attitude, the Air Force of my day would, seemingly, not be allowed to happen in these "enlightened" times - you don't even get squadron Landrovers these days!
Two things in my opinion.
Firstly, the youngsters these days are not as prepared to put up with privations and discipline as they were when I joined ("war baby" era). Just about everybody in those times had a father or uncle who had served thus giving some sort of continuity of expectation.
Secondly, I reckon the perception amongst the 'yoof' is that the RAF is now just another a big corporation with an overly strict dress code, a class ridden structure and low financial rewards.
I recall such things as the London/New York Air Race. Would such an event be allowed these days? Could the RAF even do it now?
Also, the famous London/Sydney Car Rally. Very high publicity event. RAF entered a car which was supported down route by a Herc, mil type planning and strategically place fuel/spares dumps, the works in fact. Could that happen in these times? I don't think so.