Mess Dress Rules
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Do the Officers mess at RAF stations allow the wearing of Jeans???? Do they have "scruff's Bars".
At my station the Datum bar is a scruiffs bar but anywhere else in the wardroom and the "devils cloth" is strictly forbodden !!!!
At my station the Datum bar is a scruiffs bar but anywhere else in the wardroom and the "devils cloth" is strictly forbodden !!!!
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Isn't the point that here the CDS isn't about to pitch up in jeans and trainers at Ten Downing Street?
I don't think we're talking about letting dress standards when we're working fall (which could bring on a whole seperate discussion about new jumper types, blue gortex, and silly little badges on Combat 95) but the fact that having rules about what you wear when your living in what is nominally your house, in the modern day and age, verges on insanity.
If people want to wear jean and t-shirts in the mess (and I might add I don't) what can it possibly matter. Its meant to be a place for relaxing, and getting away from work, not presenting a corporate (another thing which makes my blood boil, could have sworn I signed up to be in a service...) image.
PS If "TOTALWARS" mess is a certain base in Cornwall, isn't it also true that while the Datum is the only bar to let in jeans, it is also the only one which ever has anyone drinking in it for most of the time? Am more than happy to be corrected.
I don't think we're talking about letting dress standards when we're working fall (which could bring on a whole seperate discussion about new jumper types, blue gortex, and silly little badges on Combat 95) but the fact that having rules about what you wear when your living in what is nominally your house, in the modern day and age, verges on insanity.
If people want to wear jean and t-shirts in the mess (and I might add I don't) what can it possibly matter. Its meant to be a place for relaxing, and getting away from work, not presenting a corporate (another thing which makes my blood boil, could have sworn I signed up to be in a service...) image.
PS If "TOTALWARS" mess is a certain base in Cornwall, isn't it also true that while the Datum is the only bar to let in jeans, it is also the only one which ever has anyone drinking in it for most of the time? Am more than happy to be corrected.
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"the mess hasn't evolved as well as it might"
STANDTO
Your view about the messes not evolving is part way right, however, they haven't really evolved at all.
In my experience, so few people use the old folk's home that it is effectively irrelevant. Most members live off camp, forced to by the crap standard of quarters on offer. Consider what the official entitlement is for a married SNCO with one child for example.
The only people using the mess are those who live on camp to go and meet all the others who can't be arsed to go and buy their own house and live like parasites off the money that all the mess members have to pay. I know people forced through circumstances to live in the mess during the week who don't even venture into the bar because of the creatures that virtually live in there.
Do people really believe that a set of silly and outdated mess rules really help to uphold standards ? Instead, a visit away for most if it involves staying in amess, normally means a night out into the local town, and the real world.
Safety_Helmut
Your view about the messes not evolving is part way right, however, they haven't really evolved at all.
However, it is an important place, where personnel can socialise without interference from the outside world.
The only people using the mess are those who live on camp to go and meet all the others who can't be arsed to go and buy their own house and live like parasites off the money that all the mess members have to pay. I know people forced through circumstances to live in the mess during the week who don't even venture into the bar because of the creatures that virtually live in there.
Do people really believe that a set of silly and outdated mess rules really help to uphold standards ? Instead, a visit away for most if it involves staying in amess, normally means a night out into the local town, and the real world.
Safety_Helmut
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That very true about the Datum bar.....in fact the main bar is only open for official functions and so whether you want to wear jeans or not you are firced to drink in the scruffs bar. I'm sure that is the same with many establishments.
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Dress Standards
I think that some of the people posting agree that it is not an issue of rules, but a matter of personal standards.
As a member of the University, I frequently attend functions here at Cambridge - both college and University shindigs. Most people understand what is required of a particular function. Those attending formal hall (a 'dining in') wear academic gowns and black tie. Similarly, those attending 'at homes' in the Senior Combination Room or Masters' lodge know to wear a lounge suit. Chapel, such as Evensong and Compline, also sees students and staff to dress in a smart and tidy manner, without a formal 'dress code'.
The similarlities between College and Mess life are striking and apart from the standards required by the Praelector for Graduation (eg checking sock colour) dress standards are largely up to the individual. Yes, most students wear denim during the week, but enjoy dressing up when circumstances would dictate. Perhap Mess committees should rely on the common sense of its members, being cognisant that the Mess is also the home for a lot of people. Officers and WO& SNCOs know how to dress for function and when there are visitors. Isn't that enough without structuring pedantic mess rules that no-one reads?
As a member of the University, I frequently attend functions here at Cambridge - both college and University shindigs. Most people understand what is required of a particular function. Those attending formal hall (a 'dining in') wear academic gowns and black tie. Similarly, those attending 'at homes' in the Senior Combination Room or Masters' lodge know to wear a lounge suit. Chapel, such as Evensong and Compline, also sees students and staff to dress in a smart and tidy manner, without a formal 'dress code'.
The similarlities between College and Mess life are striking and apart from the standards required by the Praelector for Graduation (eg checking sock colour) dress standards are largely up to the individual. Yes, most students wear denim during the week, but enjoy dressing up when circumstances would dictate. Perhap Mess committees should rely on the common sense of its members, being cognisant that the Mess is also the home for a lot of people. Officers and WO& SNCOs know how to dress for function and when there are visitors. Isn't that enough without structuring pedantic mess rules that no-one reads?
Last edited by Cambridge Crash; 24th Mar 2005 at 08:42.
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it is a shame that things have seemingly gone down the pan. I enjoyed the spirit of mass life.
The accommodation issue is an interesting one. The recent inquiry into the training of recruits indeed found a wide range of standards.
Accordingly, I can imagine many looking at that and saying, 'well if they can't be bothered, neither can I'
problem is, once it has slipped, it is nigh on impossible to recover the situation.
the job, has indeed, gone to ratsh*t
The accommodation issue is an interesting one. The recent inquiry into the training of recruits indeed found a wide range of standards.
Accordingly, I can imagine many looking at that and saying, 'well if they can't be bothered, neither can I'
problem is, once it has slipped, it is nigh on impossible to recover the situation.
the job, has indeed, gone to ratsh*t
Cambridge Crash
Chapel, such as Evensong and Compline, also sees students and staff to dress in a smart and tidy manner, without a formal 'dress code'.
eg checking sock colour
Yes, most students wear denim
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Safety_Helmut,
There are many of us forced through postings (and area thereof) to live in, as we're not all blessed with a large paycheck each month. Mess dress rules are of relavance for all of US, and whilst we will be the first to whinge when a new PMC (or other person) changes things to a more formal standard, we will be the first to adhere to them, and hence the loudest of complainant when those who are lucky enough to have the means to live out fail to meet them. It is almost always those who don't who fail to meet the standards, and also who tend to reject the proposals at mess meetings that would make our HOME a happier place to live.
Rant off.
MAI24
There are many of us forced through postings (and area thereof) to live in, as we're not all blessed with a large paycheck each month. Mess dress rules are of relavance for all of US, and whilst we will be the first to whinge when a new PMC (or other person) changes things to a more formal standard, we will be the first to adhere to them, and hence the loudest of complainant when those who are lucky enough to have the means to live out fail to meet them. It is almost always those who don't who fail to meet the standards, and also who tend to reject the proposals at mess meetings that would make our HOME a happier place to live.
Rant off.
MAI24
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MAI24
I read your post, I re-read your post, and then I read it again, but I still can't work out what your point is ?
Maybe it's this excellent Shiraz i've neen quaffing all night.
Safety_Helmut
I read your post, I re-read your post, and then I read it again, but I still can't work out what your point is ?
Maybe it's this excellent Shiraz i've neen quaffing all night.
Safety_Helmut
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Self deprecation
Reynolds No1 (is this in reference to the Reynolds No?)
The point I make is that rules don't set standards, the behaviour of individuals do.
It works amongst an otherwise unruly bunch of students in Cambridge - the guys and girls dress appropriately when required; why do messes insist on trying to impose archaic standards? Perhaps Messes should appoint their own Praelectors to check dress standards!
BTW I go to chapel for the music - many recitals are held at the premier schola musica.
CC
The point I make is that rules don't set standards, the behaviour of individuals do.
It works amongst an otherwise unruly bunch of students in Cambridge - the guys and girls dress appropriately when required; why do messes insist on trying to impose archaic standards? Perhaps Messes should appoint their own Praelectors to check dress standards!
BTW I go to chapel for the music - many recitals are held at the premier schola musica.
CC
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Safety_Helmut,
Sorry, sometimes the Shiraz gets me too. The point I intended to make was that we're not all spongers who can't be @rsed to buy our own houses; some of us are simply unable to because we cannot afford to!
The other point was that we will always tend to be the ones who stick to the mess rules, and not just meet the minimum required standard. Whilst that was not a point you made in your post, I wanted to (try) and keep to the topic of the thread, rather than just biting hard!
Hope that clears it up!
MAI24
Sorry, sometimes the Shiraz gets me too. The point I intended to make was that we're not all spongers who can't be @rsed to buy our own houses; some of us are simply unable to because we cannot afford to!
The other point was that we will always tend to be the ones who stick to the mess rules, and not just meet the minimum required standard. Whilst that was not a point you made in your post, I wanted to (try) and keep to the topic of the thread, rather than just biting hard!
Hope that clears it up!
MAI24
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Well, although the clothes maketh the man, you need a bit of cashto buy stuff of decent quality.
What does a Flt Lt, with a couple of years seniority take home these days, if they don't get flying pay?
I get a feeling that with everything else, pay probablyhasn't kept pace either.
I joined in a monthe when they gave us a six per cent pay increase then changed living in to such an extent that my pay went down fifty quid a month ( and when you were only on £ 250 a month, that was a lot!)
What does a Flt Lt, with a couple of years seniority take home these days, if they don't get flying pay?
I get a feeling that with everything else, pay probablyhasn't kept pace either.
I joined in a monthe when they gave us a six per cent pay increase then changed living in to such an extent that my pay went down fifty quid a month ( and when you were only on £ 250 a month, that was a lot!)
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Speaking as a 'liver-out', I don't make a great deal of use of the Mess, but I have to take issue of a previous comment:
Not true in my experience. We had a situation where the scruffs' bar was being used entirely with virtually no-one in the main bar. On several occasions, guests coming into the Mess (including visiting senior officers from other units) inevitably drifted next door. The view was that as this was their choice, so they should not be offended by what they found. However, it was not deemed acceptable by the powers that be, and the Scruffs' Bar was closed. Now we have the one bar, with reasonably relaxed sandards (trousers and a collared shirt, no logos, no sports shirts etc), with the traffic-light system. IMO,it works reasonably well, without forcing people away from the bar to the 'all ranks facility'. It needs strong but reasonable leadership, and an acceptance by the Mess Members that certain standards are not negotiable.
One other thing that made me chuckle was the Wg Cdr's statement that he expected his officers to dress reasonably at all times; no reason why people shouldn't wander round dressed as Goths or whatever, but don't be surprised if it is reflected in your OJAR!
once it has slipped, it is nigh on impossible to recover the situation
One other thing that made me chuckle was the Wg Cdr's statement that he expected his officers to dress reasonably at all times; no reason why people shouldn't wander round dressed as Goths or whatever, but don't be surprised if it is reflected in your OJAR!
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One other thing that made me chuckle was the Wg Cdr's statement that he expected his officers to dress reasonably at all times; no reason why people shouldn't wander round dressed as Goths or whatever, but don't be surprised if it is reflected in your OJAR!
You wouldn't get away with that nowadays!A scruffs' bar is an asset to the Mess as it is good to have somewhere to relax, slumped in front of the TV, without socialising but if it has the @rse kicked out of it and the main bar is empty then it will surely vanish. Socialising is fun and one of the parts of the way of life that I miss most now in civvy street...
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There's been some mention of the mess bar being a part of the home of those who live in. Errrm...I don't have a bar in my house. I have to leave ny home to go to a bar. Most messes have the "domestic" part which is properly de-regulated. I accept that the dining room is the exception to the rule.
Although I tend to support the relaxed dress rules, I do refute the concept that the mess bar is part of the home of those who live in. You happen to live very close to your local...and thats it.
Although I tend to support the relaxed dress rules, I do refute the concept that the mess bar is part of the home of those who live in. You happen to live very close to your local...and thats it.
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Oh dear DP Harvey, you have live out of the Mess for too long.
For those of us who 'live in', the Mess is our house and the bar our living room. It's where you go after dinner for a chat and to put your feet up (obviously not on the Mess furniture).
I completely agree with Cambridge Crash on the matter of personal standards but will be the first to kick anyone out of the bar who seems to lack them.
Just for your info, Flt Lts (especially single ones living in the Mess) have planty enough money to buy acceptable clothes.
For those of us who 'live in', the Mess is our house and the bar our living room. It's where you go after dinner for a chat and to put your feet up (obviously not on the Mess furniture).
I completely agree with Cambridge Crash on the matter of personal standards but will be the first to kick anyone out of the bar who seems to lack them.
Just for your info, Flt Lts (especially single ones living in the Mess) have planty enough money to buy acceptable clothes.
