Left seat only for ME captains?
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Left seat only for ME captains?
Interested in whether Herc, VC10 and Trimotor captains should always operate from the left seat, or whether there is scope in the AT/AAR role to fly as Kipper fleet/E3s (and C17s) do with co and capt alternating left and right.
FSTA/A400M likely to be Airbus, so the type rating trg will be canned from the civvy market ie left seat for capt only. Do we need to break the mould?
Pfi thread touched on it. Possible plan (again) to push this MO onto 2 Gp. Plus points/pitfalls????
FSTA/A400M likely to be Airbus, so the type rating trg will be canned from the civvy market ie left seat for capt only. Do we need to break the mould?
Pfi thread touched on it. Possible plan (again) to push this MO onto 2 Gp. Plus points/pitfalls????
It costs more to train a pilot to fly from both seats, so why bother? Particularly with the barely-trained co-piglets struggling onto the OCUs these days. Something which is NOT their fault;
QFIs fly from either seat - bacause of their naturally superior skill, of course!
There is no need to train both pilots to fly from either seat - particularly when, in proper aeroplanes, it's possible to operate the whole trip from either seat.
Don't listen to the kipper fleet - they let AEOs and even navigators play at being Captain..... No stick, no vote!
QFIs fly from either seat - bacause of their naturally superior skill, of course!
There is no need to train both pilots to fly from either seat - particularly when, in proper aeroplanes, it's possible to operate the whole trip from either seat.
Don't listen to the kipper fleet - they let AEOs and even navigators play at being Captain..... No stick, no vote!
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The J uses PF and PNF.
As far as seat switching, despite many rumours about it, it is unlikely due to the J, as the K, only having nosewheel steering on the left hand side, and the nosewheel steering course would cost money.
As far as seat switching, despite many rumours about it, it is unlikely due to the J, as the K, only having nosewheel steering on the left hand side, and the nosewheel steering course would cost money.
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LM
My understanding is that if we can spend a couple of mill training young Scroggins to haul a big grey/green/black/shiny bus around the sky, he should (!?) be good enough to get it to the threshold without undue dinks and scrapes from the LHS using the NWS.
Just not sure if it's better to stick with the time-honoured system for our legacy (and J) fleets or say they can crack on in either seat. The low hours issue is a concern, however, and doing battle in your own seat with 10-15 (non-OOA) hrs per month is problem enough methinks!
Z
My understanding is that if we can spend a couple of mill training young Scroggins to haul a big grey/green/black/shiny bus around the sky, he should (!?) be good enough to get it to the threshold without undue dinks and scrapes from the LHS using the NWS.
Just not sure if it's better to stick with the time-honoured system for our legacy (and J) fleets or say they can crack on in either seat. The low hours issue is a concern, however, and doing battle in your own seat with 10-15 (non-OOA) hrs per month is problem enough methinks!
Z
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The J uses PF and PNF.
it is unlikely due to the J, as the K, only having nosewheel steering on the left hand side
Mr Boeing's (nee McDD) superior model has NWS accessible from both seats
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According to our good books, as well as taxying nosewheel steering on the 'J' is REQUIRED to maintain directional control in the event of an abort, 3-eng landing, double assy landing, or if an outboard engine fails after V1. From experience it can also be quite useful following a new Co's landing in any reasonable crosswind... To put the co in the LHS as PF would leave the Capt as the one signing for the aircraft but not always able to control it.
Having said that, I don't see this as a problem when the Co has gained some general aircraft experience. I do believe though that giving a 180hrTT pilot straight from the OCU over-riding control of a 4-engine aircraft is doing it too soon. Simply, it introduces an avoidable risk unnecessarily.
My tuppence worth. Powers that be have other ideas methinks.
Having said that, I don't see this as a problem when the Co has gained some general aircraft experience. I do believe though that giving a 180hrTT pilot straight from the OCU over-riding control of a 4-engine aircraft is doing it too soon. Simply, it introduces an avoidable risk unnecessarily.
My tuppence worth. Powers that be have other ideas methinks.
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Why does it make it more expensive?!!
LHS only steering on the E-3D as well but no dramas in converting pilots to both seats. Seat choice tends to be an issue only when planning for drogue AAR due to the offset probe (but we prefer boom anyway!).
Having said all that, I'm a backseat goat, so what do I know?!!
Where's SonicStomp?!!
Regards,
M2
LHS only steering on the E-3D as well but no dramas in converting pilots to both seats. Seat choice tends to be an issue only when planning for drogue AAR due to the offset probe (but we prefer boom anyway!).
Having said all that, I'm a backseat goat, so what do I know?!!
Where's SonicStomp?!!
Regards,
M2
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Well chatting with OCU instructor last week a certain 'loving' OCU at a certain secret wiltshire base will be teaching the next 2 courses as being LHS and RHS interchangable. Co's will be able to operate from the LHS starting engines and operating the NWS.
Whether or not it works, or indeed stays in favour remains to be seen.
Whether or not it works, or indeed stays in favour remains to be seen.
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I do seem to remember a K a few years back departing the runway to get a closer look at the tacan or ILS hut, following the instructor demo of a 3 engine abort. That was with an OCU instructor captain on the nosewheel never mind a newly qualified co-pilot.
They never even used to let D CAT (LCR) Copilots land when you had pax on, never mind land and steer!
They never even used to let D CAT (LCR) Copilots land when you had pax on, never mind land and steer!
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Beags,
More expensive to train them to fly in both seats?
I know lets wait a couple of years and send them back to the ocu for a month or 2 and train them to fly in the other seat...
Far more cost effective........maybe
More expensive to train them to fly in both seats?
I know lets wait a couple of years and send them back to the ocu for a month or 2 and train them to fly in the other seat...
Far more cost effective........maybe
Yes - it's called a co-capt course.
The Vickers FunBus has steering on both sides, so there is absolutely no need to spend time on the basic course teaching the novices of today to fly from both seats.
Even V-bombers had steering on both sides!
The Vickers FunBus has steering on both sides, so there is absolutely no need to spend time on the basic course teaching the novices of today to fly from both seats.
Even V-bombers had steering on both sides!
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There is no need to send an experienced Co back to do a full OCU just so they can use the nosewheel steering - just as there is no need to make them do it straight after their first OCU!
True - and now there's a proposal to go from one extreme to the other.
They never even used to let D CAT (LCR) Copilots land when you had pax on
Actually, the Victor only had it on the left. However, it was close to the centre pedestal just above the 1st pilot's (correct V Bomber term for the LHS occupant) knee. So those co-pilots with gibbon length arms (like me!) could reach and use it.
The V force did have a comprehensive system of co-pilot training and advancement, the culmination of which was the ICC (Intermediate Captain's Course) which in the fianl phase coverted the co-pilot to the LHS where he could fly from then on so long as the captain was RHS qualified as well - as many were.
The V force did have a comprehensive system of co-pilot training and advancement, the culmination of which was the ICC (Intermediate Captain's Course) which in the fianl phase coverted the co-pilot to the LHS where he could fly from then on so long as the captain was RHS qualified as well - as many were.
Unusually I am going to have to disagree with Beags on this issue. 
There is absolutely no reason why pilots should not be trained to operate in both seats (IMHO on all RAF multi-engined types). There are the usual arguments of "it would be too confusing for the poor little darlings" which can be countered with " they know no different so will except what ever they are taught as abos". If the sims were set up so that the course crew pilots (a captain and a co) alternated between seats then they would accept that as the norm. This would then mean that when a co was deemed ready for captaincy he would just be given captain status. No dramas, no need for a co-captain course, no extra costs!
The additional benefits are if you are short of co-pilots you have captains who can fly together from either seat. As long as one is the nominated captain for the trip then again no dramas (except the argument over who is going to carry the nav bag). Indeed on Beags old Sqn they went through a period of retraining captains in the RHS to act as cos because of an extreme shortage of that type of beast.
Despite Beags anti Mighty Hunter comments the fact is that both pilots on an OCU course would probably be abo first tourists. Both flew from either seat (except for T/O and landing and below 1000' AMSL if my fading memory serves correct, but stand to be corrected, when the QFI would occupy a seat) and both learned how to do all the trick flying ie DEFATO, flapless etc.
The system works on maritime and has done for 30+ years so there is no reason, IMHO, that it could not work elsewhere. Perhaps only the old shiny 10 mentality that still pervades 2 Gp is the only problem!
There is absolutely no reason why pilots should not be trained to operate in both seats (IMHO on all RAF multi-engined types). There are the usual arguments of "it would be too confusing for the poor little darlings" which can be countered with " they know no different so will except what ever they are taught as abos". If the sims were set up so that the course crew pilots (a captain and a co) alternated between seats then they would accept that as the norm. This would then mean that when a co was deemed ready for captaincy he would just be given captain status. No dramas, no need for a co-captain course, no extra costs! The additional benefits are if you are short of co-pilots you have captains who can fly together from either seat. As long as one is the nominated captain for the trip then again no dramas (except the argument over who is going to carry the nav bag). Indeed on Beags old Sqn they went through a period of retraining captains in the RHS to act as cos because of an extreme shortage of that type of beast.
Despite Beags anti Mighty Hunter comments the fact is that both pilots on an OCU course would probably be abo first tourists. Both flew from either seat (except for T/O and landing and below 1000' AMSL if my fading memory serves correct, but stand to be corrected, when the QFI would occupy a seat) and both learned how to do all the trick flying ie DEFATO, flapless etc.
The system works on maritime and has done for 30+ years so there is no reason, IMHO, that it could not work elsewhere. Perhaps only the old shiny 10 mentality that still pervades 2 Gp is the only problem!
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Why are co-pilots?. (a) Because they just out of training and therefore inexperienced. (b) Because they are making a major role change and therefore inexperienced but should make LHS fairly quickly. (c) I can say this being well retired. Because they are not very good.
What then is the advantage to the RAF in making them LHS qualified early in their tour?. Very little bar a morale element, they always have to fly with a qualified captain. What advantage is there to the individual?. 1st pilot hours, but is it not deceitful to count them as such and could the CAA not accuse the RAF of fraud?.
The LHS is a reward to be earned, not given away in the style of modern education. The V force ICC may well have been an over heavyweight means to achieve an end but its placing within a tour was an appropriate measure of an individuals ability and value to the service.
Oh, Beags, sorry but the Valiant was also LHS steering only and well on the left so unreachable from the right.
What then is the advantage to the RAF in making them LHS qualified early in their tour?. Very little bar a morale element, they always have to fly with a qualified captain. What advantage is there to the individual?. 1st pilot hours, but is it not deceitful to count them as such and could the CAA not accuse the RAF of fraud?.
The LHS is a reward to be earned, not given away in the style of modern education. The V force ICC may well have been an over heavyweight means to achieve an end but its placing within a tour was an appropriate measure of an individuals ability and value to the service.
Oh, Beags, sorry but the Valiant was also LHS steering only and well on the left so unreachable from the right.
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JAR Ops Requirements
Just for your interest this is what JAR Ops says about operating from either seat.
Appendix 1 to JAR–OPS 1.968
Pilot qualification to operate in either pilot’s
seat
(a) Commanders whose duties also require
them to operate in the right-hand seat and carry out
the duties of co-pilot, or commanders required to
conduct training or examining duties from the righthand
seat, shall complete additional training and
checking as specified in the Operations Manual,
concurrent with the operator proficiency checks
prescribed in JAR–OPS 1.965(b). This additional
training must include at least the following:
(1) An engine failure during take-off;
(2) A one engine inoperative approach
and go-around; and
(3) A one engine inoperative landing.
(b) When engine-out manoeuvres are carried
out in an aeroplane, the engine failure must be
simulated.
(c) When operating in the right-hand seat, the
checks required by JAR–OPS for operating in the
left-hand seat must, in addition, be valid and current.
(d) A pilot relieving the commander shall have
demonstrated, concurrent with the operator
proficiency checks prescribed in JAR-OPS 1.965(b),
practice of drills and procedures which would not,
normally, be the relieving pilot’s responsibility.
Where the differences between left and right seats
are not significant (for example because of use of
autopilot) then practice may be conducted in either
seat.
(e) A pilot other than the commander
occupying the left-hand seat shall demonstrate
practice of drills and procedures, concurrent with the
operator proficiency checks prescribed in JAR–OPS
1.965(b), which would otherwise have been the
commander’s responsibility acting as pilot nonflying.
Where the differences between left and right
seats are not significant (for example because of use
of autopilot) then practice may be conducted in
either seat.
[Ch. 1, 01.03.98]
Normal practice is that only Training Captains would fly in both seats as the Licence Skill Test (LST) and Licence Proficiency Check (LPC) is carried out in the simulator in the LHS or RHS. To operate from both seats requires a further check in the RHS if the bulk of the LPC was completed in the LHS.
That said there is nothing to prohibit any Captain or F/O being qualified to operate from both seats providing the JAR and approved training is completed. Normally up to the company with the agreement of the Authority.
As to logging flight hours, time spent as P1 where the individual is 'The sole manipulator of the flight controls' may be recorded as P1C even though the pilot was not the aircraft commander as recorded in the documentation.
Also, if the type rating qualification is in Part 1 of the licence i.e. recorded as P1 as opposed to P2, all flying could be claimed as P1 from either seat.
All a bit wooly.
Appendix 1 to JAR–OPS 1.968
Pilot qualification to operate in either pilot’s
seat
(a) Commanders whose duties also require
them to operate in the right-hand seat and carry out
the duties of co-pilot, or commanders required to
conduct training or examining duties from the righthand
seat, shall complete additional training and
checking as specified in the Operations Manual,
concurrent with the operator proficiency checks
prescribed in JAR–OPS 1.965(b). This additional
training must include at least the following:
(1) An engine failure during take-off;
(2) A one engine inoperative approach
and go-around; and
(3) A one engine inoperative landing.
(b) When engine-out manoeuvres are carried
out in an aeroplane, the engine failure must be
simulated.
(c) When operating in the right-hand seat, the
checks required by JAR–OPS for operating in the
left-hand seat must, in addition, be valid and current.
(d) A pilot relieving the commander shall have
demonstrated, concurrent with the operator
proficiency checks prescribed in JAR-OPS 1.965(b),
practice of drills and procedures which would not,
normally, be the relieving pilot’s responsibility.
Where the differences between left and right seats
are not significant (for example because of use of
autopilot) then practice may be conducted in either
seat.
(e) A pilot other than the commander
occupying the left-hand seat shall demonstrate
practice of drills and procedures, concurrent with the
operator proficiency checks prescribed in JAR–OPS
1.965(b), which would otherwise have been the
commander’s responsibility acting as pilot nonflying.
Where the differences between left and right
seats are not significant (for example because of use
of autopilot) then practice may be conducted in
either seat.
[Ch. 1, 01.03.98]
Normal practice is that only Training Captains would fly in both seats as the Licence Skill Test (LST) and Licence Proficiency Check (LPC) is carried out in the simulator in the LHS or RHS. To operate from both seats requires a further check in the RHS if the bulk of the LPC was completed in the LHS.
That said there is nothing to prohibit any Captain or F/O being qualified to operate from both seats providing the JAR and approved training is completed. Normally up to the company with the agreement of the Authority.
As to logging flight hours, time spent as P1 where the individual is 'The sole manipulator of the flight controls' may be recorded as P1C even though the pilot was not the aircraft commander as recorded in the documentation.
Also, if the type rating qualification is in Part 1 of the licence i.e. recorded as P1 as opposed to P2, all flying could be claimed as P1 from either seat.
All a bit wooly.
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Folks, this move has nothing to do with common sense it is merely a cost saving excercise. "Bums on seats" is what it is all about.......god help us
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced