How to say it like it is!
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How to say it like it is!
"Actually it's quite fun to fight 'em, you know. It's a hell of a hoot. It's fun to shoot some people. I'll be right up front with you, I like brawling," said Mattis.
"You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil," Mattis said during a panel discussion. "You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them."
"You go into Afghanistan, you got guys who slap women around for five years because they didn't wear a veil," Mattis said during a panel discussion. "You know, guys like that ain't got no manhood left anyway. So it's a hell of a lot of fun to shoot them."
Not saying I agree or disagree with his sentiments, but it is a refreshing change to see that he is only "counselled", rather than being dismissed, as he undoubtedly would have been if he were British.
Full story
Perhaps it is about time some of our leaders started to speak out a bit more, supporting the troops rather than looking after their careers. Then they might earn our respect.
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I've edited out my initial comments to this as i pretty much said it like it is!!
I was watching footage of an Iraqi lying wounded in a road during the war...it was captured on CNN. The reporters words were something in the lines of "An Iraqi man lies injured in the road, the American soldiers......... shoot him"...
Then follows footage of the man lying in the road crawling around obviously wounded and a line (about ten) of American soldiers are leaning on a wall and start firing at him with everything they've got and when someone actually hits the man, they all start 'cheering' like little kids in front of the TV crew!. After a load of rounds missing and hitting the tarmac instead, the iraqi then gets hit several times and falls silent.
An interview with the a specific soldier afterwards followed.
He could not contain his excitement at shooting the unarmed wounded soldier with his unit. He thought it was 'cool' and loved every minute of it. And told the TV crew just that.
Wonder if he and his crew were given a bollocking......i doubt it!
I still have the video on my Computer....
I was watching footage of an Iraqi lying wounded in a road during the war...it was captured on CNN. The reporters words were something in the lines of "An Iraqi man lies injured in the road, the American soldiers......... shoot him"...
Then follows footage of the man lying in the road crawling around obviously wounded and a line (about ten) of American soldiers are leaning on a wall and start firing at him with everything they've got and when someone actually hits the man, they all start 'cheering' like little kids in front of the TV crew!. After a load of rounds missing and hitting the tarmac instead, the iraqi then gets hit several times and falls silent.
An interview with the a specific soldier afterwards followed.
He could not contain his excitement at shooting the unarmed wounded soldier with his unit. He thought it was 'cool' and loved every minute of it. And told the TV crew just that.
Wonder if he and his crew were given a bollocking......i doubt it!
I still have the video on my Computer....
Last edited by Razor61; 4th Feb 2005 at 00:50.
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Yeller,
I cannot help but suspect that you are fishing. Surely you would not want to be led/inspired/motivated by this neanderthal?
Do not get me wrong, we should not be ashamed of the violent side of our profession - as I recall, George Orwell said:
Good people sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.
I even have sympathy with what I think the general is trying to say. Indeed, I must concur with Winston Churchill who said:
Nothing in life is so exhilarating as to be shot at without result.
HOWEVER - we are paid to represent our Nation - and the values that we purport to hold dear. Sometimes, restraint requires more conviction - and courage.
Our cousins are generally very good at soundbites but comments like this lack judgement. Sometimes a moment to reflect is more effective than just blasting. You can, after all, win every fight and still lose the war. In a crunch, I would rather have a Brit senior officer 9 times out of 10.
Sorry if I took the bait, I just happened to look in after a glass of rather nice wine...which I shall now get back to...
I cannot help but suspect that you are fishing. Surely you would not want to be led/inspired/motivated by this neanderthal?
Do not get me wrong, we should not be ashamed of the violent side of our profession - as I recall, George Orwell said:
Good people sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.
I even have sympathy with what I think the general is trying to say. Indeed, I must concur with Winston Churchill who said:
Nothing in life is so exhilarating as to be shot at without result.
HOWEVER - we are paid to represent our Nation - and the values that we purport to hold dear. Sometimes, restraint requires more conviction - and courage.
Our cousins are generally very good at soundbites but comments like this lack judgement. Sometimes a moment to reflect is more effective than just blasting. You can, after all, win every fight and still lose the war. In a crunch, I would rather have a Brit senior officer 9 times out of 10.
Sorry if I took the bait, I just happened to look in after a glass of rather nice wine...which I shall now get back to...
Last edited by Captain Kirk; 6th Feb 2005 at 09:22.
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I'm looking in also after a glass (or ten) of fine beer, can't sleep and waiting for breaky to open at eight... damn civvies.
Anyway, i wasn't gonna reply to the sheer ignorance and .... grr... can't think of the word... idiotism of the comments.
Looking back on it i see that you said you don't " agree or disagree with his sentiments" but cocks like this are the guys who get the US and Western forces in general a bad name and just serve to encourage terrorism and the like.
Yours in drunken-the-next-day-ness
PO
Anyway, i wasn't gonna reply to the sheer ignorance and .... grr... can't think of the word... idiotism of the comments.
Looking back on it i see that you said you don't " agree or disagree with his sentiments" but cocks like this are the guys who get the US and Western forces in general a bad name and just serve to encourage terrorism and the like.
Yours in drunken-the-next-day-ness
PO
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Razor..
You're post reminds me of a video I saw of an American Apache looking from the point of view of it's gun, with the comms between the gunner and pilot going on in the background.
They mowed down a couple of unarmed Iraqis and when one was shot and wounded (but still moving), the gunner didn't want to shoot him again, however the pilot (who I assume is the mission commander?), told him to do so.
A split spurt of dust spays up and the guy stops moving...
Bet the pilot and gunner felt real good after that.
You're post reminds me of a video I saw of an American Apache looking from the point of view of it's gun, with the comms between the gunner and pilot going on in the background.
They mowed down a couple of unarmed Iraqis and when one was shot and wounded (but still moving), the gunner didn't want to shoot him again, however the pilot (who I assume is the mission commander?), told him to do so.
A split spurt of dust spays up and the guy stops moving...
Bet the pilot and gunner felt real good after that.
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'Course there's no chance they were lying still, playing doggo until the RPG was ready
Unarmed...
yes, insurgents taken out are always innocent civilians murdered by the imperalist Yankee dogs.
Personally I’d rather be second-guessed and condemed by know-nothings back home, who have never done anything more dangerous than cross the road, than be carried back in a body bag……
Unarmed... yes, insurgents taken out are always innocent civilians murdered by the imperalist Yankee dogs. Personally I’d rather be second-guessed and condemed by know-nothings back home, who have never done anything more dangerous than cross the road, than be carried back in a body bag……
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I'm not going to try to defend the Apache crew - who knows what Int that had on the victims in that video, but it looks indefensible on its own - but I will say that the Forces need people willing to kill. Not nice, but true.
The ideal soldier is one who is indifferent to death, and will kill if and when necessary, but not otherwise. I've never experienced it, but I doubt if there's anyone who has no emotions at all in that situation. So, taking it to extremes, we've got the choice of the soldier (or sailor, or airman) who enjoys killing, and spends years telling his mates about it in the bar, or the soldier who abhors it and, after his first kill, never touches a weapon again. Who would you rather have defending your country? And who would you rather spend millions on training to fight?
As I said, I haven't been there, and I wonder if anyone who hasn't can really comment. But is someone who enjoys his job such a bad thing?
BCH
The ideal soldier is one who is indifferent to death, and will kill if and when necessary, but not otherwise. I've never experienced it, but I doubt if there's anyone who has no emotions at all in that situation. So, taking it to extremes, we've got the choice of the soldier (or sailor, or airman) who enjoys killing, and spends years telling his mates about it in the bar, or the soldier who abhors it and, after his first kill, never touches a weapon again. Who would you rather have defending your country? And who would you rather spend millions on training to fight?
As I said, I haven't been there, and I wonder if anyone who hasn't can really comment. But is someone who enjoys his job such a bad thing?
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Alex - interesting video. How can you be sure the 'wounded man' is not crawling to his SA7/14 (Very prevalent shoulder launched surface-to-air-missile - !)?
BCH - I will defend them. And what is that tosh about 'victims'?
Try imagining that you are hovering in the dark, in a hostile environmemt ,with an unknown number of threats surrounding you. Any moment could see an RPG or SAM coming at you from anywhere. But you have a job to do so you stay as long as is necessary, balancing the very real risk to your own life to the potential fall-out of failing to complete your mission; where were those 'victims' going? What was in the trucks? How many friendlies might they kill if they continued with their task unhindered?
Don't judge conflict from your armchair!
BCH - I will defend them. And what is that tosh about 'victims'?
Try imagining that you are hovering in the dark, in a hostile environmemt ,with an unknown number of threats surrounding you. Any moment could see an RPG or SAM coming at you from anywhere. But you have a job to do so you stay as long as is necessary, balancing the very real risk to your own life to the potential fall-out of failing to complete your mission; where were those 'victims' going? What was in the trucks? How many friendlies might they kill if they continued with their task unhindered?
Don't judge conflict from your armchair!
Last edited by Captain Kirk; 6th Feb 2005 at 09:31.
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Alex - these "pigs" are the reason German is not your national language. It's a war for Christ sake, you pompass a-hole. There are plenty of "great moments" in British military history too. Palestine post-WW II comes to mind as one that is still haunting us all.
To the rest of you Brits - no offense. I've enjoyed many a beer with the Nimrod guys. People like Alex just don't have a clue and get under my skin.
To the rest of you Brits - no offense. I've enjoyed many a beer with the Nimrod guys. People like Alex just don't have a clue and get under my skin.
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I have met General Mattis - I assume that the whinging anti-American contributors on this thread have not. He is an outstanding man who is a true leader of men and was an excellent ally and friend to our troops in Iraq during the entry to Iraq.
As for the video piece. Assuming that this is a genuine piece of footage then it looks fairly professional to me. I don't hear much whooping from the US crew and I don't know when it was taken, what the mission was, who the enemy was or what the ROE were. Therefore I can not make a judgement on it. I find it sad that people put this sort of thing on the Internet and sadder people take pleasure in downloading it and passing it around.
The simple truth is that this happens in war; if the truth is uncomfortable then go live in a neutral country. If you doubt that there is a serious fight going on in Iraq then perhaps you should pay a visit or at least stop relying on the British media to provide you with your information.
As for Gen Mattis' comments on Afghanistan, I'm sure my Afghan friend (who spent 45 days in a Taliban jail for not having a beard) would agree. At least his family are no longer forced to attend public beheadings of women for some trivial 'crime'.
As for the video piece. Assuming that this is a genuine piece of footage then it looks fairly professional to me. I don't hear much whooping from the US crew and I don't know when it was taken, what the mission was, who the enemy was or what the ROE were. Therefore I can not make a judgement on it. I find it sad that people put this sort of thing on the Internet and sadder people take pleasure in downloading it and passing it around.
The simple truth is that this happens in war; if the truth is uncomfortable then go live in a neutral country. If you doubt that there is a serious fight going on in Iraq then perhaps you should pay a visit or at least stop relying on the British media to provide you with your information.
As for Gen Mattis' comments on Afghanistan, I'm sure my Afghan friend (who spent 45 days in a Taliban jail for not having a beard) would agree. At least his family are no longer forced to attend public beheadings of women for some trivial 'crime'.
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Not passing judgement, but the complete video of the apache incident was actually available to buy on CD-ROM at various BX's in Iraq. The complete video has end credits which include the crew's names.
I do wonder if this applies, though.
I do wonder if this applies, though.
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PTT,
OK, unarmed combatant walking slowly under a white flag. Easy.
Enemy soldier about to fire upon you - equally easy.
How about...you are storming a machine-gun post. Somehow, you survive and reach the enemy position. At this point the enemy gunners put their hands up. They were happy to kill you right up to the point that it appeared that they were going to lose. What do you do?
What makes you think that the enemy in the video were no longer combatants?
Would you stake your life upon it? And your gunner's? And your wingman??!
Don't judge combat from your armchair!
..Beam me up.
OK, unarmed combatant walking slowly under a white flag. Easy.
Enemy soldier about to fire upon you - equally easy.
How about...you are storming a machine-gun post. Somehow, you survive and reach the enemy position. At this point the enemy gunners put their hands up. They were happy to kill you right up to the point that it appeared that they were going to lose. What do you do?
What makes you think that the enemy in the video were no longer combatants?
Would you stake your life upon it? And your gunner's? And your wingman??!
Don't judge combat from your armchair!
..Beam me up.
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Captain Kirk
I stated I wasn't passing judgement, but since you asked:
Q. How about...you are storming a machine-gun post. Somehow...lose. What do you do?
A. Take them prisoner, assuming I have the resources to do so. The fact that they have surrendered suggests I do.
Q. What makes you think that the enemy in the video were no longer combatants?
A. The first guy to be shot was unarmed. He had merely got out of his tractor. The second guy was getting what appeared to be a weapon - a fair kill. The third guy was seriously injured and crawling away from the combat area. Calling in an ARF to secure the area and arrest and treat the third man would have been correct.
I was in theatre at the time of this incident and I know the surrounding circumstances.
Q. Would you stake your life upon it? And your gunner's? And your wingman??!
A. If I was in an Apache and the wounded man was crawling away from the weapon? Yes. The risk could have been mitigated by keeping the injured guy in the sights and, if he made a threatening move, only then opening fire. It takes several seconds to set up a MANPAD - easily enough time to kill the guy, even if he has seen you.
Not really a question but more of a sanctiomonious statement: Don't judge combat from your armchair!
A. I was trying not to, but you asked.
I stated I wasn't passing judgement, but since you asked:
Q. How about...you are storming a machine-gun post. Somehow...lose. What do you do?
A. Take them prisoner, assuming I have the resources to do so. The fact that they have surrendered suggests I do.
Q. What makes you think that the enemy in the video were no longer combatants?
A. The first guy to be shot was unarmed. He had merely got out of his tractor. The second guy was getting what appeared to be a weapon - a fair kill. The third guy was seriously injured and crawling away from the combat area. Calling in an ARF to secure the area and arrest and treat the third man would have been correct.
I was in theatre at the time of this incident and I know the surrounding circumstances.
Q. Would you stake your life upon it? And your gunner's? And your wingman??!
A. If I was in an Apache and the wounded man was crawling away from the weapon? Yes. The risk could have been mitigated by keeping the injured guy in the sights and, if he made a threatening move, only then opening fire. It takes several seconds to set up a MANPAD - easily enough time to kill the guy, even if he has seen you.
Not really a question but more of a sanctiomonious statement: Don't judge combat from your armchair!
A. I was trying not to, but you asked.
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It is good that my original post has provoked some good discussion, but the point I was hoping to make, so far has been missed.
I think that there is a big difference in the way the US Commanders dealt with what, by any stretch of the imagination, are fairly outspoken comments, and the way the British Government, and press, would have persecuted such comments.
People deal with the stresses of war in many different ways, as evidenced by the various posts and threads, but I do still feel that a moderate reaction to General Mattis's comments shows that there is genuine understanding of what war is like, and the effects it can have on brave and strong people.
Perhaps our UK Government and press could learn a few lessons, and not be so quick to "have a go" at our Armed Forces as they so seem to like doing.
I think that there is a big difference in the way the US Commanders dealt with what, by any stretch of the imagination, are fairly outspoken comments, and the way the British Government, and press, would have persecuted such comments.
People deal with the stresses of war in many different ways, as evidenced by the various posts and threads, but I do still feel that a moderate reaction to General Mattis's comments shows that there is genuine understanding of what war is like, and the effects it can have on brave and strong people.
Perhaps our UK Government and press could learn a few lessons, and not be so quick to "have a go" at our Armed Forces as they so seem to like doing.
Q. How about...you are storming a machine-gun post. Somehow...lose. What do you do?
A. Take them prisoner, assuming I have the resources to do so. The fact that they have surrendered suggests I do.
A. Take them prisoner, assuming I have the resources to do so. The fact that they have surrendered suggests I do.
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MightyGem - During the combat (i.e. before they surrendered) I would have killed them too. We who go to war know what we risk - our friends and our lives. Going to war without full knowledge of this is foolhardy and will lead to unnecessary emotional reactions.
Yes, it's easy to answer from in front of my laptop, but I do know how I react in these situations.
Yes, it's easy to answer from in front of my laptop, but I do know how I react in these situations.
Personally I agree with PTT - and would have done so irrespective of whether it was a US, British or Martian flown Apache.
But, and it's a big but, 20-20 hindsight is of little value in the fog of war. Troops of any nation need to be suitably trained and have sufficient discipline to make the right judgements instinctively. Whether they did so in this instance is not something I can judge.
Nevertheless, the attitude of some of the ANG units in Incirlik the last time I was there I found profoundly disturbing. Deliberately seeking confrontation - and I once heard one of their number say, in all seriousness, "You guys had better stir up something for us to bomb soon as otherwise we'll be going home without having bombed a goddam thing".
Isn't that what air policing deterrence is all about?
But, and it's a big but, 20-20 hindsight is of little value in the fog of war. Troops of any nation need to be suitably trained and have sufficient discipline to make the right judgements instinctively. Whether they did so in this instance is not something I can judge.
Nevertheless, the attitude of some of the ANG units in Incirlik the last time I was there I found profoundly disturbing. Deliberately seeking confrontation - and I once heard one of their number say, in all seriousness, "You guys had better stir up something for us to bomb soon as otherwise we'll be going home without having bombed a goddam thing".
Isn't that what air policing deterrence is all about?