How to say it like it is!
To the best of my knowledge (and my ageing memory) there were no criticisms aired, either politically or in the press, of the guys who fought down south in 1982.
If they had not had inspired leadership on the ground and if they had not been the best in the world at what they had to do (a very dirty war when taking the mountains) the conflict would not have had the result it did. Circumstances often dictate that war is not the clinical affair that those not in the know would advocate. Taking a machine gun post on a mountain, at night and in sh***y weather may well have resulted in all of the ‘defenders’ getting wasted, even those who wanted to surrender (‘cos even bad guys observe the Convention when surrendering). Unlucky.
If they had not had inspired leadership on the ground and if they had not been the best in the world at what they had to do (a very dirty war when taking the mountains) the conflict would not have had the result it did. Circumstances often dictate that war is not the clinical affair that those not in the know would advocate. Taking a machine gun post on a mountain, at night and in sh***y weather may well have resulted in all of the ‘defenders’ getting wasted, even those who wanted to surrender (‘cos even bad guys observe the Convention when surrendering). Unlucky.
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 107
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
these "pigs" are the reason German is not your national language.
I assume you'll agree then, that 'we're' the reason your national language is not Spanish, Portuguese, French or Dutch?
Or would that make an ass of you and me?
Join Date: Oct 1999
Location: Lincs
Posts: 203
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
PTT – I cannot help but feel that you are being overly simplistic. What about the bad guys that you have not seen, carefully drawing a bead on you from 7 o'clock while you are self-righteously ‘keeping the injured guy in the sights’. I wouldn’t want you as my wingman. And I am afraid that putting up the Geneva Convention link is, to my interpretation, intimating judgement but shying from actually saying so…interesting given the topic title! No offence intended by the way – best debate in here for ages.
Beagle – I have seen some worryingly cavalier approaches too but also some incredible discipline too. Witness Triple Nickel aborting a drop on DMPI 10 of 10 after no impact seen on target 9 – raising the possibility of a collateral incident. Post flight it could be seen that the GBU was DH but UXB on DMPI 9 – it could be seen in a nice dark debriefing room but in a noisy, vibrating, sweaty cockpit with the sun reflecting off of the screen the pilot had not seen it (rather reinforces my, and your, point about the difference between being there at the time and making clinical judgements afterwards). To decommit the drop with milli-seconds to go was nothing short of meticulously professional. Not excusing the cowboys, but an important counterpoint.
CB – spot on in my book.
Yeller – actually, I think that you do have a point. Interestingly, the article does not put the quote into context. In a public forum the General would, at the least, be lacking judgement but to a military audience, under Chatham House rules…?
Given backpocket’s endorsement, I am inclined to suspect that his remarks have been taken wildly out of context.
Beagle – I have seen some worryingly cavalier approaches too but also some incredible discipline too. Witness Triple Nickel aborting a drop on DMPI 10 of 10 after no impact seen on target 9 – raising the possibility of a collateral incident. Post flight it could be seen that the GBU was DH but UXB on DMPI 9 – it could be seen in a nice dark debriefing room but in a noisy, vibrating, sweaty cockpit with the sun reflecting off of the screen the pilot had not seen it (rather reinforces my, and your, point about the difference between being there at the time and making clinical judgements afterwards). To decommit the drop with milli-seconds to go was nothing short of meticulously professional. Not excusing the cowboys, but an important counterpoint.
CB – spot on in my book.
Yeller – actually, I think that you do have a point. Interestingly, the article does not put the quote into context. In a public forum the General would, at the least, be lacking judgement but to a military audience, under Chatham House rules…?
Given backpocket’s endorsement, I am inclined to suspect that his remarks have been taken wildly out of context.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Posts: 441
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Captain Kirk - As I said, I know the circumstances of the Apache video. The Apache was not alone - he had topcover from more than just one other aircraft.
The Geneva Convention link really was just a link. I wonder if it applies - there are so many ways to interpret it and I am not a lawyer.
That said, following the ideals of the conventions should be the norm. There are no black-and-white situations (otherwise this would be easy) but I suggest that it is much harder to apply the conventions when storming a machinegun post on an enemy held hilltop than when sat in several million dollars of the most deadly equipment on the battlefied watching a man with no legs crawl away from you.
So where do we draw the line? I guess that's down to the individual at the time and the subsequent board of enquiry afterwards. That's why, as BEagle said, "Troops of any nation need to be suitably trained and have sufficient discipline to make the right judgements instinctively".
No offence taken, btw
The Geneva Convention link really was just a link. I wonder if it applies - there are so many ways to interpret it and I am not a lawyer.
That said, following the ideals of the conventions should be the norm. There are no black-and-white situations (otherwise this would be easy) but I suggest that it is much harder to apply the conventions when storming a machinegun post on an enemy held hilltop than when sat in several million dollars of the most deadly equipment on the battlefied watching a man with no legs crawl away from you.
So where do we draw the line? I guess that's down to the individual at the time and the subsequent board of enquiry afterwards. That's why, as BEagle said, "Troops of any nation need to be suitably trained and have sufficient discipline to make the right judgements instinctively".
No offence taken, btw
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Home
Posts: 3,399
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In my opinion, the questionable judgement was the decision to put the video about, thus ensuring that armchair generals with no experience of on the spot, operational decision making would have the opportunity to second guess from the safety of home whether their actions were reasonable or not. The only people who will know the full story, rather than what can be gleaned from poor quality video with nil background info were those in the AH and they seem pleased with their days work.
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: UK
Posts: 107
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm not fishing here but a theme running through a lot of replies seems to be as long as the public doesn't find out it's ok.
Is this what you're trying to say?
Starting to think the lefties are right
Is this what you're trying to say?
Starting to think the lefties are right
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Las Vegas, NV, USA
Posts: 40
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pileup Officer - my point is that we are your friends when you need us but pigs when we do something you don't agree with.
The UK and US have been best allies for years. The difference is that we don't UK bash every opportunity we get.
The UK and US have been best allies for years. The difference is that we don't UK bash every opportunity we get.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Home
Posts: 3,399
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You do, however, accidentally kill British Servicemen with monotonous regularity
and lets not get started on allowing the IRA freedom to fundraise in the US until suddenly you discovered what terrorism was like in your own backyard.....
I think you'll find that the "allies" theory has been over used, and I'm not exactly sure what the UK has gained from it, though I suppose buying Merlin should just about wipe the slate clean. Lets see if it can bankrupt your Military as well.
and lets not get started on allowing the IRA freedom to fundraise in the US until suddenly you discovered what terrorism was like in your own backyard.....
I think you'll find that the "allies" theory has been over used, and I'm not exactly sure what the UK has gained from it, though I suppose buying Merlin should just about wipe the slate clean. Lets see if it can bankrupt your Military as well.
Last edited by Tourist; 6th Feb 2005 at 18:50.
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Gods Country
Posts: 64
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tourist, I used to think a little like you before I went to Baghdad. I saw for myself at first hand how bad things are out there, and just just how brutal the enemy are.
I can undestand the US officer feeling like that; when you have seen so many of your friends whacked by an unseen enemy, or witnessed unarmed men having their heads sawn off, women shot in the back of the head or seen your countrymen jump from burning skyscrapers rather than burn to death, perhaps you will feel the same.
The Americans are indeed are allies and we should be grateful. I will NEVER forget what they did for some of my/our people, and I now understand what their "centre of gravity" is.
The officer in question was asked a question, in a war, and he was honest. I hope he stays safe..and that the Apache crew do too.
I can undestand the US officer feeling like that; when you have seen so many of your friends whacked by an unseen enemy, or witnessed unarmed men having their heads sawn off, women shot in the back of the head or seen your countrymen jump from burning skyscrapers rather than burn to death, perhaps you will feel the same.
The Americans are indeed are allies and we should be grateful. I will NEVER forget what they did for some of my/our people, and I now understand what their "centre of gravity" is.
The officer in question was asked a question, in a war, and he was honest. I hope he stays safe..and that the Apache crew do too.
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Norwich, UK
Posts: 496
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Oh dear, what have I started by mentioning that video?! 
I seem to remember at the time it did get some negative press in the UK?
Whilst no-one but the pilot and gunner in the Apache can justify/fail to justify what they did, we're each entitled to our own opinions on what is right and wrong, surely?
IMO the crew were wrong to fire at that guy on the deck, you disagree with me? Ok, thats up to you...
Now any chance of getting back on the topic raised by YG?
I seem to remember at the time it did get some negative press in the UK?
Whilst no-one but the pilot and gunner in the Apache can justify/fail to justify what they did, we're each entitled to our own opinions on what is right and wrong, surely?
IMO the crew were wrong to fire at that guy on the deck, you disagree with me? Ok, thats up to you...
Now any chance of getting back on the topic raised by YG?
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Home
Posts: 3,399
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think you misunderstand me.
I have no problem with the general or the apache.
What I object to is the suggestion that the UK are only fair-weather allies.
The IRA blew up British town centres for years and the US not only didnt help but actually funded them in large part.
Then a US trained terrorist blows up New York Town centre and we leap to their defence (as well we should!)
I simply think it is a bit rich to lecture us on our responsibilities as allies
I have no problem with the general or the apache.
What I object to is the suggestion that the UK are only fair-weather allies.
The IRA blew up British town centres for years and the US not only didnt help but actually funded them in large part.
Then a US trained terrorist blows up New York Town centre and we leap to their defence (as well we should!)
I simply think it is a bit rich to lecture us on our responsibilities as allies
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Devon, England
Posts: 816
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From the BBC
The US Marine Corps has publicly upbraided one of its generals for his comments describing shooting people in Iraq as "fun".
Discussing fighting in Iraq, the General said he liked brawling and enjoyed shooting people.
The Marine Corps said Lt Gen James Mattis had been "counselled" concerning his remarks, made during a panel discussion in California.
The general had agreed he should have chosen his words more carefully.
Gen Mattis is a hardened veteran of combat and appears to have developed a taste for it.
During the discussion, he spoke of his experience fighting in Iraq as commander of the 1st Marine Division.
Public gaffe
Caught on tape, he said: "Actually, it's quite a lot of fun to fight; you know, it's a hell of a hoot. I like brawling; it's fun to shoot some people."
In the context of Afghanistan, he said men who slapped around women for not wearing a veil had no manhood and it was fun to shoot them.
The commandant of the Marine Corps, Gen Mike Hagee, later issued a statement saying he had counselled Gen Mattis on his remarks.
The statement praised Gen Mattis as a brave and brilliant military leader and it seems there will be no disciplinary action
The US Marine Corps has publicly upbraided one of its generals for his comments describing shooting people in Iraq as "fun".
Discussing fighting in Iraq, the General said he liked brawling and enjoyed shooting people.
The Marine Corps said Lt Gen James Mattis had been "counselled" concerning his remarks, made during a panel discussion in California.
The general had agreed he should have chosen his words more carefully.
Gen Mattis is a hardened veteran of combat and appears to have developed a taste for it.
During the discussion, he spoke of his experience fighting in Iraq as commander of the 1st Marine Division.
Public gaffe
Caught on tape, he said: "Actually, it's quite a lot of fun to fight; you know, it's a hell of a hoot. I like brawling; it's fun to shoot some people."
In the context of Afghanistan, he said men who slapped around women for not wearing a veil had no manhood and it was fun to shoot them.
The commandant of the Marine Corps, Gen Mike Hagee, later issued a statement saying he had counselled Gen Mattis on his remarks.
The statement praised Gen Mattis as a brave and brilliant military leader and it seems there will be no disciplinary action
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Las Vegas, NV, USA
Posts: 40
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Tourist - you just don’t get it. I've never said the UK are only fair weather allies. Just the opposite, I said the UK has always been the best of allies.
My problem is with Pileup Officer calling us pigs and the constant US bashing that goes on here. If you go to a predominantly US website, you won't see UK bashing (we save it for the French
).
Maybe I'm just a glutton for punishment always coming to this board. I realize the world doesn't rotate around the US military and I've always been interested in the thoughts of allied aviators.
My problem is with Pileup Officer calling us pigs and the constant US bashing that goes on here. If you go to a predominantly US website, you won't see UK bashing (we save it for the French
).Maybe I'm just a glutton for punishment always coming to this board. I realize the world doesn't rotate around the US military and I've always been interested in the thoughts of allied aviators.
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 98
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hal
Don't worry about Pileup - there may be problems with your politicians (bet you say the same), however I daresay that the majority of the Army, Royal Navy and RAF are on your side.
Pileup is just another wus, with 20/20 hindsight, who makes decisions on soundbites from doubtful TV, the anti-US press and a DVD of unknown history, all from an armchair defended by people who are asked to kill, to defend his rights to make stupid comments. He hasn't been fired upon by people who 5 seconds later want the full Geneva Convention when they surrender. Of course he wants an unemotional response - yeah right!
Don't worry about Pileup - there may be problems with your politicians (bet you say the same), however I daresay that the majority of the Army, Royal Navy and RAF are on your side.
Pileup is just another wus, with 20/20 hindsight, who makes decisions on soundbites from doubtful TV, the anti-US press and a DVD of unknown history, all from an armchair defended by people who are asked to kill, to defend his rights to make stupid comments. He hasn't been fired upon by people who 5 seconds later want the full Geneva Convention when they surrender. Of course he wants an unemotional response - yeah right!
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Plain speaking would seem to have become the accepted Pentagon lingua franca.
---------------------------------------------------------
Guardian, Saturday 29th January.
US jets 'flying over Iran to spot potential targets'
The US is increasing the pressure on Iran by sending military planes into its airspace to test the country's defences and spot potential targets, according to an intelligence source in Washington.......
The US military denied the reports. "We're not flying over frigging Iran," an official said........
----------------------------------------------------------------
Be nice if the MOD adopted the same frank manner.
---------------------------------------------------------
Guardian, Saturday 29th January.
US jets 'flying over Iran to spot potential targets'
The US is increasing the pressure on Iran by sending military planes into its airspace to test the country's defences and spot potential targets, according to an intelligence source in Washington.......
The US military denied the reports. "We're not flying over frigging Iran," an official said........
----------------------------------------------------------------
Be nice if the MOD adopted the same frank manner.
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Bristol, England
Age: 65
Posts: 1,805
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
...and it was me who called the Apache crew pigs, not Pileup, and I did it deliberately. I judge a pig by its actions.
Out comes the usual agressive banter.... 'armchair generals', 'when did you last see active service?' 'hidden RPG', 'you can't tell unless you were there', yak yak yak, but there was no hidden RPG, and no hint of one unless you think that tractor looked threatening. Its easy to get wound up in militarism if your cause is a just one, cf Falklands, WW2, less easy if its becoming obvious to even the very dim that this aggression is unjustified. If I was in the US military I would hang my head in shame, as it is they, and the American public, appear to glory in the slaughter.
Out comes the usual agressive banter.... 'armchair generals', 'when did you last see active service?' 'hidden RPG', 'you can't tell unless you were there', yak yak yak, but there was no hidden RPG, and no hint of one unless you think that tractor looked threatening. Its easy to get wound up in militarism if your cause is a just one, cf Falklands, WW2, less easy if its becoming obvious to even the very dim that this aggression is unjustified. If I was in the US military I would hang my head in shame, as it is they, and the American public, appear to glory in the slaughter.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: UK
Posts: 1,777
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hal
Please don't tar us all with the same brush as others who post anti-American comment here or anywhere else. I spent nearly 40 years as an RAF pilot working alongside the US Forces, including in the Gulf and former Yugoslavia. I have nothing but good to say about American professionalism and people I worked with.
In any Forces you're going to get ar**holes who let the side down - we've got our own court-martial running at the moment for some of ours. My feelings about them are the same as would be for any nationality who behave in such a barbaric manner - despite what you witness or experience there is no excuse for dragging yourself down to the same gutter level as those who disregard the values of civilised society. That's what distinguishes us from, let us say, the routinely less civilised behaviour of some people of other nations.
We are right to condemn those who behave in a barbaric way towards other human beings, no matter what they have done. We must observe our own standards of civilised behaviour or we lose our credibility in the fight to help oppressed people.
Whether or not you believe the war is justified or not, whether or not you believe it is right to impose western-style democracy on another nation, there is no excuse for anti-allied comment [and I encompass more nations than just the US here].
I have posted on many topics against those who make anti-American comments. Such comment usually turns a sensible discussion into a trans-Atlantic slanging match, which becomes boring and unpleasant to read.
FJJP
Please don't tar us all with the same brush as others who post anti-American comment here or anywhere else. I spent nearly 40 years as an RAF pilot working alongside the US Forces, including in the Gulf and former Yugoslavia. I have nothing but good to say about American professionalism and people I worked with.
In any Forces you're going to get ar**holes who let the side down - we've got our own court-martial running at the moment for some of ours. My feelings about them are the same as would be for any nationality who behave in such a barbaric manner - despite what you witness or experience there is no excuse for dragging yourself down to the same gutter level as those who disregard the values of civilised society. That's what distinguishes us from, let us say, the routinely less civilised behaviour of some people of other nations.
We are right to condemn those who behave in a barbaric way towards other human beings, no matter what they have done. We must observe our own standards of civilised behaviour or we lose our credibility in the fight to help oppressed people.
Whether or not you believe the war is justified or not, whether or not you believe it is right to impose western-style democracy on another nation, there is no excuse for anti-allied comment [and I encompass more nations than just the US here].
I have posted on many topics against those who make anti-American comments. Such comment usually turns a sensible discussion into a trans-Atlantic slanging match, which becomes boring and unpleasant to read.
FJJP